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Thread: On Wars and Faction Size.

  1. #1
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar Aetī Avēas!
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    Default On Wars and Faction Size.

    I have noticed that the only two small factions that have managed to grow large are Vroengarde and the Order; they were sucessful because they were able to recover from what wars they fought.

    On the other hand though, the reason for this lack of proper faction growth is a combination of lack of new members on the server, and the fact that Larger factions come up with excuses to keep them from growing large, and without any signifigant allies they get put down.

    I propose that we have a serious change in faction and war policy, beginning with limiting the size a faction can grow to at 10 members. That way we have a bunch of relatively- medium sized factions running around rather than these factions of 15 members or larger.

    Also, I propose a reform to war; the problem with wars is that one army attacks and occupies the base preventing the other faction from fighting back, and usually destroys a faction's capability to fight back even if they could by taking all their supplies. This is somewhat understandable, but wars are meant to consist of more than one battle, and the other factions should have a chance to fight back. Therefore I propose that there should be some sort of penalty for staying on a facion's land for so long.

    Now there's nothing we can do about the raiding of supplies without destroying the purpose of raiding all together.

    I also propose that this constant system of declaring war right before an atack be removed; it takes 4 days of minecraft time to travel to our base from the south portal, and the Sons' forces attacked immediately after they declared war, when we should have had a chance to prepare for them to come. I doubt Remlap would have used his Admin prielages to teleport his army there, so that means they declared war after they had traveled to our base and gave us no time to prepare.

    Again this co-incides with the previously mentioned process of occupation of a base, where they wait around and kill anyone who logs on. In this instance I propose that there must be a five minute waiting period before any combat can occur when war is declared. This allows the surprise attack attempts to only occur later in the war, and helps to make sure there is a "later in the war."

    ~~~~MMFA
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
    Well then Attila just got delicious.
    Under the Patronage of Pikestance

  2. #2

    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    I have noticed that the only two small factions that have managed to grow large are Vroengarde and the Order; they were sucessful because they were able to recover from what wars they fought.
    I can't help but notice that they're both comprised of very competent players, who I would fear any day of the week. The majority of the other factions are just composed of newbs, who don't know how to play and fight right. Growing large has only to do with focus. You're confusing size with style.

    On the other hand though, the reason for this lack of proper faction growth is a combination of lack of new members on the server, and the fact that Larger factions come up with excuses to keep them from growing large, and without any signifigant allies they get put down.
    No, it has to do with how good, focused, and skilled you are, and every powerful faction is a testament to that. Look at the Dwarves, who crumbled fairly quickly despite vastly outnumbering the Men of the North.

    I propose that we have a serious change in faction and war policy, beginning with limiting the size a faction can grow to at 10 members. That way we have a bunch of relatively- medium sized factions running around rather than these factions of 15 members or larger.
    No way in hell. If you aren't good enough to play in the big leagues, then you need to train and learn how, before you get your faction involved in things way over it's head.

    Also, I propose a reform to war; the problem with wars is that one army attacks and occupies the base preventing the other faction from fighting back, and usually destroys a faction's capability to fight back even if they could by taking all their supplies. This is somewhat understandable, but wars are meant to consist of more than one battle, and the other factions should have a chance to fight back. Therefore I propose that there should be some sort of penalty for staying on a facion's land for so long.
    There is - it's called manpower. The longer you're at war, the more manpower you will gradually lose. Aggressive factions don't want to stay at war, they merely are seeking something from the other factions. Even then, you should be able to have enough arms and armor hidden away to launch a counter attack. And if you don't, seriously, scamper off to the safezone, take the turnstile, and raid their base while they're all at yours. Or call upon your allies. Or make a truce. War is war, if you want an even fight, go to the arena.

    Now there's nothing we can do about the raiding of supplies without destroying the purpose of raiding all together.
    Which is generally the purpose people occupy your base, correct?

    I also propose that this constant system of declaring war right before an atack be removed; it takes 4 days of minecraft time to travel to our base from the south portal, and the Sons' forces attacked immediately after they declared war, when we should have had a chance to prepare for them to come. I doubt Remlap would have used his Admin prielages to teleport his army there, so that means they declared war after they had traveled to our base and gave us no time to prepare.
    So the truth comes out. It actually took us about 20 minutes (one full day/night) to get to your base, and we didn't take the portal, so either you're going by a really way, or we're just speed demons. That being said, we were about 800 blocks out, iirc, when we declared war.

    Again this co-incides with the previously mentioned process of occupation of a base, where they wait around and kill anyone who logs on. In this instance I propose that there must be a five minute waiting period before any combat can occur when war is declared. This allows the surprise attack attempts to only occur later in the war, and helps to make sure there is a "later in the war."

    ~~~~MMFA
    We killed you once. When you had arms and armor. After that, you respawned in your bed. I even went into that room to use the crafting table a couple of times, and didn't touch you, and no one else did while I was online. And we weren't occupying your base, we were looting it, and shortly after, we all left. Otherwise, please explain how I'm at the Sons base right now when you're 9k blocks away from us, if we hung around and occupied your base.

    Now, here's a few tips to get you on your way to being competent and focused, and skilled.

    1) If your base wasn't an NPC village, we wouldn't have been able to waltz right in. Seriously, build walls and a gate. First thing you do.

    2) If your base wasn't completely abandoned, we wouldn't have been able to walk right in. Darkstorm and you were online when we arrived, neither of you were there. Darkstorm knew about the DoW a few minutes before we got there, and he went to the Men of the North base and started threatening them for some reason.

    3) If you don't want to get attacked, don't provoke us unnecessarily. We won't attack new, smaller factions that don't post a threat, but you guys sold information about our alliance to Dwarves, and so everything you got in return was retaliation. If you didn't want the war to begin with, don't start it.

    4) I'd say everyone feels pretty badly about attacking you guys, though. We expected some resemblance of a base, instead we found a couple of huts and a church. Anyways, we're giving you some of your stuff back. I'll admit it's not in the spirit of the server for a bigger faction to run all over a smaller one, but just because we're bigger doesn't mean you can sell information about us and not expect anything in return.
    Under the Patronage of Leonidas the Lion|Patron of Imperator of Rome - Dewy - Crazyeyesreaper|American and Proud

  3. #3
    Pat89's Avatar Northman™
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    To put it short: I disagree.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Some replies:

    1. Our base isn't an NPC village, I just built some basic buildings in the style of one so iron golems and villagers would spawn when it updatesto 1.2, and we were working on walls
    2. In most of these instances i want referring to the failure of the legion or the current war between our factions.
    3. I was there, I was underwater coming out of the cave stash you would later find. I didn't know about the war and i was starting to type when i saw remlap but hit backspace really fast when i realized he was enemy to try and fight.
    Knowing his history i knew i wouldn't win.
    4. TBH we need to look at the reason why most small factions fail:
    Legion - no resources left because of the northmen war and not enough members to get them back
    Horde - No one logged on because of war, and akar's banning
    Goblins - No one logged on, and Mal declared war on the dwarves
    Riddermark - Inexperienced players, faction split up, and The Northmen smashed them to pieces

    so it's mostly a lack of members that keeps people from logging on because of a lack of commitment, and both provoked and unprovoked wars have to do with it, because it discourages people from logging on and therefore no resources come in to maintain the faction

    Also, for something like selling information, there is no real reason to declare war when you just could have solved it by talking to rainbow. That and as far as we still know he didn't sell any information. The story could have been fabricated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
    Well then Attila just got delicious.
    Under the Patronage of Pikestance

  5. #5

    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    I disagree aswell. Mostly for the points Bolkonsky said. However, I think execivelly large factions will eventually become a problem, as players will be drawn to them due to the fact they are, after all, larger factions instead of doing the work and joining a smaller faction or starting their own.
    Last edited by The Guy With No Imagination; February 28, 2012 at 08:14 AM.

  6. #6
    Benz282's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    The Orcs and Monks exist on the server, too, ya know

    The Orcs got smashed by the Northmen, and while that sucks, the Northmen certainly had good reason to do so, them being allies with the Dwarves and all.

    Meanwhile, the Monks have been relatively passive, but seem to be prospering. Chances are theyre not doing much on the world stage because they have yet to finish setting up. That said, I can't imagine anyone would be attacking them soon; don't give anyone any reason to attack you, and they won't.

    In regards to limiting the size of factions... Thats just silly. While it is definitely unfair for a large faction to be fighting a small one, this isn't the solution. You could break up a large faction into two smaller ones, but that would only cause a headache for everyone involved in terms of base construction and land claiming.

  7. #7

    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Some replies:

    1. Our base isn't an NPC village, I just built some basic buildings in the style of one so iron golems and villagers would spawn when it updatesto 1.2, and we were working on walls
    Yeah, you guys didn't even have a foundation set up. There was like 5 cobble blocks in your whole base.

    3. I was there, I was underwater coming out of the cave stash you would later find. I didn't know about the war and i was starting to type when i saw remlap but hit backspace really fast when i realized he was enemy to try and fight.
    You were outnumbered, and surprised, that's the intention.
    Knowing his history i knew i wouldn't win.
    That's true also.
    4. TBH we need to look at the reason why most small factions fail:
    Legion - no resources left because of the northmen war and not enough members to get them back
    You shouldn't have gone to war with Northmen.

    Horde - No one logged on because of war, and akar's banning
    Akar shouldn't have gotten banned.
    Goblins - No one logged on, and Mal declared war on the dwarves
    Not much can be done about that.
    Riddermark - Inexperienced players, faction split up, and The Northmen smashed them to pieces
    We were by no means a small faction, just one that didn't work.

    so it's mostly a lack of members that keeps people from logging on because of a lack of commitment, and both provoked and unprovoked wars have to do with it, because it discourages people from logging on and therefore no resources come in to maintain the faction
    Not lack of members, but rather, lack of committed members.

    Also, for something like selling information, there is no real reason to declare war when you just could have solved it by talking to rainbow. That and as far as we still know he didn't sell any information. The story could have been fabricated.
    We solved it by a raid, that's how you solve things in Minecraft. If I wanted to talk about problems, I'd have gotten a psychiatrist.

    That being said, you guys didn't lose much, just some potions and an enchanting table (which is being given back) and we didn't demand anything but the public execution of Darkstorm by firing squad once. That's it. We don't want to pick on people, and with the members list you guys have, we thought you'd be bigger. Believe me, I know what it's like being picked on as a small faction, it's not fun, it's not worth it to the larger faction, and hence why we're making some reparations.

    I disagree aswell. Mostly for the points Bolkonsky said. However, I think execivelly large factions will eventually become a problem, as players will be drawn to them due to the fact they are, after all, larger factions instead of doing the work and joining a smaller faction or starting their own.
    I agree and disagree. On one hand, I'd love to see a lot more stable, smaller factions, I'm hoping this happens when we start advertising the server. On the other hand, I think it's possible for the smaller factions to get better established by simply being more focused.
    Under the Patronage of Leonidas the Lion|Patron of Imperator of Rome - Dewy - Crazyeyesreaper|American and Proud

  8. #8
    Remlap's Avatar Lag Slayer
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    To say this shortly, No.

    We had discussed doing this before the server began briefly however we quickly abandoned the idea because of the reasons bolk is listing as well as a few others.

    On the subject of blitzkrieg tactics there is little we can do to stop it in terms of the plugin, and we have discussed this tactic more than once while the server developed and haven't seen a good reason to disallow it.

  9. #9
    Lord Romanus III's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Rem and I have discussed the topic already and all I can say is: adapt or die. Those are the two options for MC pvp.

  10. #10
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    I skimmed the OP and will refute a few suggestions:

    "Limit factions to 10 men"

    People will simply do what the Brotherhood-Sons have done: make separate factions and be allies. An attack on one "faction" brings the rest into the war. An arbitrary cap on faction size has been proposed before, on both this server and previous ones. It is not workable. To make it work you have to limit alliances, and limit participation in wars, and all sorts of additional checks and balances that we are not prepared to put in place. End of story.

    "Force war declarations early"

    We had this on the old server, a 24 hour ceasefire at the start of wars. Factions does not have this option and this server will have too many people and factions to enforce it manually. Additionally, many real life wars have begun with surprise attacks, why limit it?

    "Wars are over in one battle"

    This is wholly incorrect. Your war was over in one battle. The other wars on this server have raged for a while and spanned multiple battles. A faction has too many lives to die in a single battle: at full power, you have 15 lives to use before your power is reduced to zero.

    "Factions cannot grow"

    We're aware new members are arriving in a trickle. Advertising for the server has not begun and I do not know what is preventing it. GED's input is needed on that one.

    * * *

    In short: Your entire post is wrong.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    @ bolkonsky and poach:

    The Northmen war we almost won the first time, 3/4 battles the Legion and Order won at fort pinnacle, but the order declared a white peace, which in the long term we shouldn't have done. The second northmen war consited of 2 battles.

    Agreed about the lack of commitment
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
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  12. #12
    High Chunker Greens's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    @ bolkonsky and poach:

    The Northmen war we almost won the first time, 3/4 battles the Legion and Order won at fort pinnacle, but the order declared a white peace, which in the long term we shouldn't have done. The second northmen war consited of 2 battles.

    Agreed about the lack of commitment
    The amusing thing about the war against you and the Order is that we were on the verge of losing, so we sued for a white peace.

    Then we allied them

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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10greenbottles View Post
    The amusing thing about the war against you and the Order is that we were on the verge of losing, so we sued for a white peace.

    Then we allied them
    Yeah, so you can break them apart or pit them against the sons so you can crush the survivors under your heel, causing a loss of morale and the factions to break apart and become the dominant power on the server.

    I'm not stupid, I'm a master at politics even though I suck in a debate.

    Also, that battle was funny, it wa slike whack a mole with a bow and arrow for skivvies and I. Who taught you guys to shoot? The galactic empire?
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
    Well then Attila just got delicious.
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  14. #14
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Keep your smack talk out of this thread. MMFA, you have already disproven your own statements regarding wars being won in a single battle. Have you any counter-points to raise against the various points others have raised against you, or is this thread concluded?

  15. #15
    Musthavename's Avatar Bunneh Ressurection
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    I disagree on all your points, mostly for the reasons Poach has raised, so I won't repeat them.

    I'd also add that while I wouldn't think it'd be too difficult to mod factions to actually add delayed war declarations, I don't see the point. I'd rather have the facility to spontaneously declare war to allow for such surprise attacks. Whilst others can make one on you, there's nothing stopping you making one on them.
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  16. #16
    Skivvies's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    @ bolkonsky and poach:

    The Northmen war we almost won the first time, 3/4 battles the Legion and Order won at fort pinnacle, but the order declared a white peace, which in the long term we shouldn't have done. The second northmen war consited of 2 battles.

    Agreed about the lack of commitment
    I disagree. Eventually, the war would have gotten to Order lands, and that was just a temporary base that wasn't supposed to be used as much of a defensive structure at all. We learned this in the second war, when we got destroyed. And in fact, the Legion didn't really do much in the first war, considering you had gotten destroyed by Akar and the Horde, and couldn't even declare war on the Northmen. They were unable to hurt you while you were on your land.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Yeah, so you can break them apart or pit them against the sons so you can crush the survivors under your heel, causing a loss of morale and the factions to break apart and become the dominant power on the server.

    I'm not stupid, I'm a master at politics even though I suck in a debate.
    Why would the Order decide to go to war against a faction that they're allied with, and have good relations with? We happen to like both our allies, as shown by the fact that some of our members joined up with the Northmen to participate in their war when we were unable to do so because of the Dwarves having less than 50%. And while I can't speak for other members of the faction, I at least would have done the same thing if it had been the Brotherhood/Sons against the Dwarves, had they accepted my assistance.

    You claim to be a master at politics, but I have yet to see anything more than a basic comprehension of the subject by you yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magister Militum Flavius Aetius View Post
    Also, that battle was funny, it wa slike whack a mole with a bow and arrow for skivvies and I. Who taught you guys to shoot? The galactic empire?
    Also, if you thought that battle was funny, you should have seen when the Northmen attacked the Dwarven mountain builder yesterday. They were shooting at me and the other guys there, and while the others were trying to hide from the arrows and getting hit, I was just running out in plain sight collecting arrows and giving them to my buddies, and later climbing the mountain by myself, and I wasn't hit by either a Dwarven arrow or snowball. It was glorious.
    Last edited by Skivvies; February 28, 2012 at 02:27 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Smaller factions would be nice, but I think it would be definitely against the spirit of the server and simply unfun to force it. Delays on declarations of war I could maybe understand, but I think there could be better solutions out there.

    Legion - no resources left because of the northmen war and not enough members to get them back
    From what I've seen, you guys use your resources somewhat frivolously. You work on a base before you even have enough iron/diamonds to make a consistently supply of pickaxes, or have any armor. You don't even have enough coal to smelt iron for basic equipment because you use it all on making stone brick.

    Goblins - No one logged on, and Mal declared war on the dwarves
    wat
    Last edited by Dr. Tobias Fünke; February 28, 2012 at 02:14 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skivvies View Post
    I disagree. Eventually, the war would have gotten to Order lands, and that was just a temporary base that wasn't supposed to be used as much of a defensive structure at all. We learned this in the second war, when we got destroyed. And in fact, the Legion didn't really do much in the first war, considering you had gotten destroyed by Akar and the Horde, and couldn't even declare war on the Northmen. They were unable to hurt you while you were on your land.




    Why would the Order decide to go to war against a faction that they're allied with, and have good relations with? We happen to like both our allies, as shown by the fact that some of our members joined up with the Northmen to participate in their war when we were unable to do so because of the Dwarves having less than 50%. And while I can't speak for other members of the faction, I at least would have done the same thing if it had been the Brotherhood/Sons against the Dwarves, had they accepted my assistance.

    You claim to be a master at politics, but I have yet to see anything more than a basic comprehension of the subject by you yet.



    Also, if you thought that battle was funny, you should have seen when the Northmen attacked the Dwarven mountain builder yesterday. They were shooting at me and the other guys there, and while the others were trying to hide from the arrows and getting hit, I was just running out in plain sight collecting arrows and giving them to my buddies, and later climbing the mountain by myself, and I wasn't hit by either a Dwarven arrow or snowball. It was glorious.
    The Horde never killed a single legion member in that war. Also, every time greens poked his head out i shot him, i missed the first few times, granted, but that's cause i was walking into the target zone. I do it with our ballista all the time.

    Also, I said I'm not good at debates, that's why you guys always see only a basic understanding of politics from me. The northmen are building up for their move to take both of you down. The dwarves were just an unforseen oppertunity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodthirsty Tyrant View Post
    Smaller factions would be nice, but I think it would be definitely against the spirit of the server and simply unfun to force it. Delays on declarations of war I could maybe understand, but I think there could be better solutions out there.



    From what I've seen, you guys use your resources somewhat frivolously. You work on a base before you even have enough iron/diamonds to make a consistently supply of pickaxes, or have any armor. You don't even have enough coal to smelt iron for basic equipment because you use it all on making stone brick.
    Actually the problem was that we did find diamonds, but never got the chance to use them, or used them on picks. And when all the members left the mining operations dried up and we ran out of coal etc because we didn't have the mining capabilitie we had when Nerva and Rain were in, and livy07 horded everything he mines in secret stash we couldnt find. He had like 23 diamonds when i first found it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    Keep your smack talk out of this thread. MMFA, you have already disproven your own statements regarding wars being won in a single battle. Have you any counter-points to raise against the various points others have raised against you, or is this thread concluded?
    I think this thread has concluded.
    Last edited by Bolkonsky; February 28, 2012 at 04:30 PM. Reason: use edit. triple post
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
    Well then Attila just got delicious.
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  19. #19
    Skivvies's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    If the horde never killed your members, then why was your manpower so low that you could not declare war on the Northmen, or have them declare war on you?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: On Wars and Faction Size.

    Probably creepers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix
    Well then Attila just got delicious.
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