Horseback spear fighting in Japan.

[The_Nord]

Been reading up on samurai history latley. I already knew that samurai in 16th century mostly fought with spears, but how did they pull that off on horseback? I've read in several sources that they, even in this period, often engaged other samurai, as it was more "honourable", but fighting with spears on horseback is not the easiest thing to do, especially when you have to get through the enemy's armour too! If they used spears that were perhaps 2 meters, then, sure, I can sort of see that happening. My real question is, is there any information regarding how they actually fought? Was it more akin to napoleonic times and such that after initial contact was made, they would drop their spears and draw swords, or what?

Lastly, I also know samurai often actually dismounted when they engaged the enemy, then using a spear to defeat the enemy, even when armoured, becomes a somewhat simpler affair. But I'm sure cavalry engagements did happen. Is there any sources on techniques that were used back in the 16th century left or is that all gone? Darn I wish I knew japanese...

[Heiro de Bodemloze]

The cavalry of the Sengoku Period was not like the cavalry you think of. The horses were only about 120 cm tall. And carrying an armored samurai, that would not give much momentum . So they where joined by foot soldiers, ashigaru, two for each horseman.

In Stephen Turnbull's Kawanakajima book, the strategies were as follows:

atenori, hit and run, was when horse and foot charged into, preferably missile, infantry and then broke off readying for another attack.

then they would use the norikiri tactic, units of five to ten horsemen rode into the enemy to stir confusion.


This thread has a lot of discussion: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21683

[The_Nord]

Thank you my friend, the book about kawanakajima is one of turbull's books I lack unfortunately.

[The_Nord]

Having read that thread. I find that they only argue wether the samurai could make a charge or not. What about the weight of the cavalry bearing down on infantry? I mean simply pushing infantry to disorganise them, which they could probably do if they attacked infantry from the flank or rear. Also, I'm sure what often happened when cavalry was approaching, some infantry, mainly ranged infantry, would probably just break and flee before contact was even made, and then the cavalry would proceede to cut them down with spear and sword.

Anyone else like to share their opinion? I'm by no means an expert and wouldn't mind being corrected lol!

[DeMolay]

double post sry

[DeMolay]

Good post HeirofAlexander , indeed most Japanese native horse breed were pony-sized (like in other parts of the world ) at that time , however it doesn't mean they did not have qualities that were useful in battles , like their endurance , speed and adaptation to the particular terrain and harsh wheather conditions

About the practical use , i read that a large part of the cavalry force would usually dismount during battles , unless they have the element of surprise or rear charging the enemy forces , which often caused more confusion than casualties , even though it was not any less efficient to rout the enemy

The concrete examples where a cavalry charge or the use of cavalry was decisive in a Sengoku-Jidai battle are not many to my (humble and limited ) knowledge .

AFAIK , there is the battle of Mimasetoge in 1569 , when the Takeda were about to be surrounded , and Yamagata Masakage charged with a massive number of horsemen toward the Hojo levies , and routed them , leaving a space in which the rest of the Takeda army could pass through and escape the encirclement , however it is difficult to say this battle was a victory since the Takeda lost hundreds of dead , among their best troops . It was surely a tactical victory , but probably not a strategical one


There is also the battle of Kurokawa in 1589 (Suriagehara actually ) , it is said despite an extremely vailliant resistance of the Ashina force for hours , the Date's horsemen decided the outcome with a late cavalry charge that crippled the morale and eventually routed the Ashina . So in this case too , cavalry played an important .


However , i'm ignorant of any specific detail concerning this battle , i don't know if the charge was on the flank , if the Ashina troops they charged were already engaged , how many horsemen did charge , and did some of them dismount ?

Then there is Mikatagahara , Ying Duke of Qing made a great topic and very insightful posts about it , the Takeda cavalry with the effect of surprise charged the rear and routed a part of the Tokugawa army

There are also probably other battles were cavalry played a decisive role , as a general rule , in every Japanese army during Sengoku (and before ) , there were mounted bushis , the upper class of the warrior nobility would come to battle on horse , and every one of the retainers brought at least 5 men with him including the one who takes care of the horse , and they would fight in the daymio's retinue , or one of his vassal's retinue .

However , the proportion of horses in a Sengoku army was very small in relation to the army size . The Takeda (Shingen and some of his generals ) put emphasis on horse troops , at first mainly to address a problem of mobility ( Takeda ruled a land which did not have good roads , ruled over a mountainous domain , communication and quick mobilisation of valuable troops was easier if many of them were mounted ) , then later because they found it proved efficient when used with appropriate tactics (as not only cavalry charges were used by the Takeda , but it was also tactically useful to have a massive number of mounted troops to deploy quickly on the flanks or rear of the enemy at a critical time , dismount to overrun the flanks , or faint retreats with ambushes lying behind or harrass with repeated charges )

But as a general rule , for most clans apart from the Takeda , i doubt if more than 10% of the troops were mounted horsemen . I think one important thing to keep in mind is that since Nobunaga's time , most ashigaru troops were equipped with spears that were about 5 meters length on average . Whereas the mounted troops , overwhelmingly carried a Yari that was about 2.5 meters in length , so this technical informations suggest that horsemen did not have much of a chance charging head on such mass spear formations , but on the other hand could have a tremendous effect on them when using their superior mobility to charge them from unexpected directions (flanks or better , from the rear , mounted or dismounted ) while they are already engaged and thus breaking their morale . Hence the need for tactics to harrass the enemy , deploy on his flanks , charge , retreat , deploy somewhere else , charge , retreat , probe for weaknesses or answer a general plea for help , deploy there to mae a surprise flank charge , retreat , dismount etc ... . It was surely quite an advantage to have a high number of mobile troops ready to be deployed at critical spots

[The_Nord]

Great post, much appreciated! Of course the sheer usefulness of a highly mobile force on the field of battle is already implied. Attacking a weak spot in an enemy formation, or the entire battle line for that matter, could be crucial. I mean, imagine being an ashigaru pikeman, you're engaged with the enemy in combat, and suddenly theres 500 mounted samurai behind you that is also bringing with them 500 more infantry from their own retinue, would you stand your ground or would you flee? I think the samurai way of using cavalry is very smart, and shows tactical maturity, using them mostly as a mobile force, for ambushes and so on, rather than head on bravado as others have done.

Another thing that always plague discussion of sengoku jidai era cavalry is that Nagashino is usually the only battle mentioned, when there are many other mentioned, I'd like to keep the Nagashino mentions to a minium!

[Heiro de Bodemloze]

Thanks DeMolay.

How can you say that you have limited knowledge? You are one of the most knowledgeable I know.

Could you link the thread Ying had about MikatagaHara? I seem to have missed it, if you are not referring to the thread I created some time ago.

Good post yourselves too

[DeMolay]

Thanks guys that is kind of you , no really , my knowledge on Sengoku-jidai is basically based on 3 Turnbull's book and a few NHK Taiga series and various forum lectures , so i try to put as more objective info i have , but since i don't read Japanese and i'm not a historian , i just cannot act like i'm an authority on the subject , i just love the period and guess on most topics usually based on incomplete knowledge

I just wish Ying was still posting around , she had good sources in Japanese and insight on most topics
Thanks for the topic Nord , i like topics about concrete military matters

Yes sorry the link to Mikatagahara topic is : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=482800
Was a topic of HeirofAlexander ok

[yoshisuke]

I wanted to reply on the 'on sengoku cavalry' thread but it's dead for years, now.

First of all, no matter the precise subject, never trust Turnbull's books. He does a great job as introducing the reader to the japanese warfare but he relies mostly on old translations and popular beliefs, therefore other authors have to read, too. (for exemple, in french, we have translated titles of Mitsuo Kure's work based on new translations and new sources and he destroyes some myths like Nagashino and Okehazama.)

As stated before, monted samurai had at least two ashigaru to hold the horse, samurai's weapons, flags and their own weapons.
As I see it, mounted samurai used to charge but it was not cavalry only, the ashigaru on foot were charging with their master as well and probably helped him to dismount.
Strategies probably changed in every situation, if the initial charge breaks the enemy formation, the samurai remains mounted and chase the enemy, if the charge is repeled, the cavalry retreats with the ashigaru holding the enemy to prevent a counter attack (or they would fall back with the horsemen) and, if the charge is absorbed and the fight turns into a melee, then the samurai dismount and fight on foot.
After all, even if the japanese horses were smaller and slower, the speed and even more the weight of the horse would break the enemy formation. I mean a spear wall is not like in the game, like the horse hitting a real wall. In spear point formation a cavalry would break a spear wall, the first horses are killed but with the spead and weight, the spears would most likely break, allowing the other horsmen to break through.

As for the use of the spear, in charge, it's abvious but on one versus on (if it did happened) a spear is a very precise weapon and it would be used to either hit the weaker points of the armour, push the enemy to make him fall from his horse or kill the horse as well.

[eighthgear]

How do you use a spear against an armored cavalryman? Stab his horse! Though I don't know how honorable that is.

[yoshisuke]

Samurai of the Sengoku Jidai were not fighting for honour, they were collecting heads for promotions and gifts from their lords so stabbing a horse or an enemy in the back was no big deal, surviving was a lot more important.
Funny fact, the no-dachi was not designed to cut through armors but to cut the horses legs off.

[The_Nord]

I wanted to reply on the 'on sengoku cavalry' thread but it's dead for years, now.

First of all, no matter the precise subject, never trust Turnbull's books. He does a great job as introducing the reader to the japanese warfare but he relies mostly on old translations and popular beliefs, therefore other authors have to read, too. (for exemple, in french, we have translated titles of Mitsuo Kure's work based on new translations and new sources and he destroyes some myths like Nagashino and Okehazama.)

As stated before, monted samurai had at least two ashigaru to hold the horse, samurai's weapons, flags and their own weapons.
As I see it, mounted samurai used to charge but it was not cavalry only, the ashigaru on foot were charging with their master as well and probably helped him to dismount.
Strategies probably changed in every situation, if the initial charge breaks the enemy formation, the samurai remains mounted and chase the enemy, if the charge is repeled, the cavalry retreats with the ashigaru holding the enemy to prevent a counter attack (or they would fall back with the horsemen) and, if the charge is absorbed and the fight turns into a melee, then the samurai dismount and fight on foot.
After all, even if the japanese horses were smaller and slower, the speed and even more the weight of the horse would break the enemy formation. I mean a spear wall is not like in the game, like the horse hitting a real wall. In spear point formation a cavalry would break a spear wall, the first horses are killed but with the spead and weight, the spears would most likely break, allowing the other horsmen to break through.

As for the use of the spear, in charge, it's abvious but on one versus on (if it did happened) a spear is a very precise weapon and it would be used to either hit the weaker points of the armour, push the enemy to make him fall from his horse or kill the horse as well.

I think you make a good point regarding that there would be various stages in combat. After I while, I also think most samurai would dismount and fight. On a side note, being a samurai's spear-carrier was a position of great honour, and that person along with the other attendants would most likely be battle hardened individuals. As for a full frontal attack against a spear wall, I too think the first row of horses would die, perhaps breaking the enemy spear wall in the second or third surge by cavalry. But most likely of all is that they didn't attack infantry in this manner, but probably preferred to attack in the side or rear of the enemy. Again I'd like to point out that the cavalry might have pushed the side or rear of the infantry rather than just charging it. What do you guys think?

Also, Hi yoshisuke!

[DeMolay]

I wanted to reply on the 'on sengoku cavalry' thread but it's dead for years, now.

First of all, no matter the precise subject, never trust Turnbull's books. He does a great job as introducing the reader to the japanese warfare but he relies mostly on old translations and popular beliefs, therefore other authors have to read, too. (for exemple, in french, we have translated titles of Mitsuo Kure's work based on new translations and new sources and he destroyes some myths like Nagashino and Okehazama.)

As stated before, monted samurai had at least two ashigaru to hold the horse, samurai's weapons, flags and their own weapons.
As I see it, mounted samurai used to charge but it was not cavalry only, the ashigaru on foot were charging with their master as well and probably helped him to dismount.
Strategies probably changed in every situation, if the initial charge breaks the enemy formation, the samurai remains mounted and chase the enemy, if the charge is repeled, the cavalry retreats with the ashigaru holding the enemy to prevent a counter attack (or they would fall back with the horsemen) and, if the charge is absorbed and the fight turns into a melee, then the samurai dismount and fight on foot.
After all, even if the japanese horses were smaller and slower, the speed and even more the weight of the horse would break the enemy formation. I mean a spear wall is not like in the game, like the horse hitting a real wall. In spear point formation a cavalry would break a spear wall, the first horses are killed but with the spead and weight, the spears would most likely break, allowing the other horsmen to break through.

As for the use of the spear, in charge, it's abvious but on one versus on (if it did happened) a spear is a very precise weapon and it would be used to either hit the weaker points of the armour, push the enemy to make him fall from his horse or kill the horse as well.

Interesting post and insight Yoshisuke , i didn't know about Mitsuo Kure , i will look for his french translation now , nice advice thank you and +rep

[yoshisuke]

Hi, The_Nord ! (I've been busy IRL so I didn't have a lot of time to post around here lately and I'm pretty tired so please excuse me for the spelling mistakes and typos.)

I agree, cavalry was probably more used to flank the enemy. But we also have to take in consideration that before Nobunaga and his late campaigns ashigaru were not professional soldiers and would easily rout at the sight of an enemy full charge.
We also have to consider that the armies were not organized in units. Every major retainers/general of high ranks who were daimyo of smaller han had their own private armies. So most of the battles were not one army against an other but smaller armies, organized in a bigger one, fighting each others. That allows smaller infantery movements and charges. Kawanakajima is a good exemple of that. Each flank of the Takeda army was under the control of a Takeda senior retainer and each one was charged by a different Uesugi retainer (I don't have time to go into further details right now but later maybe) and each flanks did not respond the sme way, one held better, if i remember right. And with the flanks busy Kenshin charged into the center with his own Hatamoto (wich was the daimyo 'private' army.) So we can guess, each flank and Kenshin's hatamoto probably saw different forms of cavalery/infantry charges on their own.
It was not spear charge then cavalry to the flank, but more one flank does that, then that while the other flank did something different.

and DeMolay, thanks for the rep and take a look at this book. It's my favourite one and most of the Oda Nobunaga part is based on new texts from one of Nobunaga retainers (whose name I forget, sorry.)it's very interesting because he goes beyond the legend and since he was an eye witness, it makes his texts a lot more reliable than the late edo pro-tokugawa historians' ones.

http://www.amazon.fr/Samoura%C3%AFs-.../dp/2877306623

[american samurai]

Been reading up on samurai history latley. I already knew that samurai in 16th century mostly fought with spears,

Thats a fairly broad statement, what part of the 1500s are you referring to? There was a big difference between the early 1500s and the late 1500s when the tanegashima matchlock was being used.

[The_Nord]

There is also a difference between the ashigaru and the samurai. The arquebus was never the main weapon of the samurai, it was a weapon almost only used by the ashigaru. Although you could argue that after Hideyoshi and Ieyasu's reforms they were more or less the lowest ranking samurai.

[Thefallenhun]

Hmm, not terribly knowledgeable, but I don't think the Japanese had the concept of a "lance" to be used by a charging horseman, as I understand it, the average spear was 8-12 foot long and chisel pointed for penetrating armor, not something too easy to use from horseback.

[american samurai]

There is also a difference between the ashigaru and the samurai. The arquebus was never the main weapon of the samurai, it was a weapon almost only used by the ashigaru. Although you could argue that after Hideyoshi and Ieyasu's reforms they were more or less the lowest ranking samurai.

You are absolutely wrong, samurai owned and used tanegashima, the tanegashima that ashigaru used were also owned by samurai (also the ashigaru weapons and armor), ashigaru worked for samurai, they were an extension of the samurai, it is a common mistake that people make assuming that samurai did not like or use firearms.

[The_Nord]

I didn't say they didn't liked or didn't use firearms, I'm just saying that far more ashigaru than samurai used firearms on the battlefield. I've never, ever come across a single source that says that after 1560 most samurai went into battle with a arquebus rather than a spear. And I do know about the fact that daimyo and samurai often owned the weapons and armour they lent to their ashigaru. You seriously need to provide a source that says that the favoured weapon of the samurai after 1560 was the arquebus.