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Thread: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

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    Default Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

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    One of the many beliefs — i.e., non-empirically based doctrines — of the post-Christian West has been that moral progress is the human norm, especially so with the demise of religion. In a secular world, the self-described enlightened thinking goes, superstition is replaced by reason and reason leads to the moral good.

    Of course, it turned out that the post-Christian West produced considerably more evil than the Christian world had. No mass cruelty in the name of Christianity approximated the vastness of the cruelty unleashed by secular doctrines and regimes in the post-Christian world. The argument against religion that more people have been killed in the name of religion than by any other doctrine is false propaganda on behalf of secularism and leftism.

    The amount of evil done by Christians — against, for example, “heretics” and Jews — in both the Western and Eastern branches of Christianity was extensive, as was the failure of most European Christians to see Nazism for the evil that it was. The good news is that Christian evils have been acknowledged and addressed by most Christian leaders and thinkers.

    But there were never any Christian Auschwitzes — systematic genocides of every man, woman, and child of a particular race or religion. Nor were there Christian Gulags — the shipping of millions of innocents to conditions so horrific that prolonged suffering leading to death was the almost inevitable end.

    The anti-religious Left offers two responses to these facts. The first is that modern technology made the Nazi and Communist murders of scores of millions possible; had the church been technologically able to do so, it would have made its own Auschwitz and Gulag. The second is that Nazism and Communism were religions and not secular doctrines.

    The response to the first is that technology was not necessary for the Communist murders of over 100 million innocent people in the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, and elsewhere. In Cambodia, millions were murdered with hammers, in Rwanda, with machetes.

    The response to the second is that Communism and Nazism were secular movements, and to deny that is to tell a gargantuan lie. Even if one argues that Nazism and Communism were religions, they were nevertheless secular religions. That too many Christians morally failed when confronted with Nazism is true but irrelevant to the fact that Nazism was in no way a Christian movement.

    And now the post-Christian world is getting worse.

    The moral news about the world in which we live is almost unremittingly negative.

    RUSSIA Russia is devoid of a moral values system. Whatever moral role the Russian Orthodox Church played was largely extinguished during the seven decades of Communist suppression of religion. Today, pockets of religious morality notwithstanding, Russia is essentially a nihilistic state. Under the leadership of a former KGB director, Russia now plays a destructive role in world affairs. Russia today is characterized by major arms shipments to Syria, protection of Iran while it becomes a nuclear power, imposition of Russia’s will on Ukraine and other neighboring states, and the violent suppression of domestic critics who shed any light on the organized-crime syndicate that rules the geographically largest nation in the world.

    TURKEY The Ataturk Revolution is being undone. Turkey, the country long regarded as the bridge between the West and Islam, is rapidly moving away from the West and toward an increasingly anti-Western Islam.

    IRAN Iran is ruled by the heirs of Nazism, if that word still means anything after being cheapened by the Left for decades, most recently by the Left’s comparison of Arizona to a Nazi state. The rulers of Iran boast of their desire to initiate a second Holocaust against the Jews, all while denying that the first Holocaust took place. And the country’s treatment of citizens who seek elementary human freedoms and of women is among the worst on earth.

    CONGO According to all reports, nearly 6 million people have been killed in the Congo in the last decade. The great secular, liberal hope in “humanity” and “world opinion” has once again been shown to be the false hope it is. World opinion and “humanity” have rarely done anything to help the truly persecuted. But there is more to the Congolese genocide: the absence of reporting about it in the world’s media and its being a non-issue at the United Nations. If an Israeli soldier kills a rock-throwing Palestinian, or even worse, makes plans to build 1,600 apartments in east Jerusalem, the U.N., world opinion, and the world media cover it as if it were the primary evil on earth. But the Congolese deaths are barely worth a mention.

    MEXICO Mexico is fighting for its life against narcotics gangs that compete with Islamists in their sadism. Mexico could become the largest narco-state in the world. To be a good person in Mexico today, i.e., to oppose the drug lords in any way, is to put oneself in danger of being slowly tortured to death.

    EUROPE Europe long ago gave up fighting for or believing in anything other than living a life with as much economic security, as many days off, and as young a retirement age as possible. World War I killed off European idealism; whatever remained was destroyed by World War II. What I have written about the Germans is true for nearly all of Europe: Instead of learning to fight evil, Europe has learned that fighting is evil.

    Other consequences of European secularism and the demise of non-materialistic ideals there include a low birth rate (children cost money and limit the number of fine restaurants in which one can afford to dine) and appeasement of evil. Thus most European nations are slowly disappearing and nearly every European country has compromised Western liberties in order to appease radical Muslims.

    RADICAL ISLAM Polls taken in the Muslim world regularly report that about 10 percent of the world’s Muslims say they support radical Islam — meaning Islamic totalitarianism as practiced by the Taliban and terror as practiced by al-Qaeda. That means at least 100 million people. Add to that the unspecified number of Muslims who support the Nazi-level and Nazi-like anti-Semitism promulgated in much of the Middle East, and you have an enormous body of people committed to the death of the West.

    CHINA As in Russia, traditional virtues were largely destroyed by Communism in China, and China, too, is essentially a nihilistic state whose government spends its vast sums if foreign currency in buying influence in some of the cruelest places on earth (Zimbabwe, for example) and protecting the genocide-advocating regime of Iran.

    THE UNITED NATIONS The net result of the United Nations is an increase in evil on earth. Whatever good is performed by some of its institutions, such as the World Health Organization and UNICEF, that good is outweighed by the amount of evil the U.N. either abets or allows. It has supervised genocide in Rwanda, done nothing to stop genocide elsewhere (e.g., Congo and Sudan), gives a respectable forum to tyrannies, and is preoccupied with vilifying one of its relatively few humane states, Israel. Its contribution to human suffering is exemplified by Libya’s election to its Human Rights Council and Iran’s election to its Commission on the Status of Women.

    THE UNITED STATES The United States was described by Pres. Abraham Lincoln as “the last, best hope of earth.” Most Americans agreed then. However, with the ascent of the Left in America — in our educational institutions, in our news and entertainment media, and in the arts world — fewer and fewer Americans believe this. On the contrary, the leftist view of America, which pervades American life, is of a country deeply morally compromised by endemic racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, militarism, imperialism, and a rapacious capitalism that leads to immoral levels of economic inequality.

    As they are doing to Europe, these views are leading America to avoid offending its enemies. The American attorney general recently refused to answer a congressman’s repeated question about whether he believes that radical Islam might have been one factor motivating recent Muslim terrorists in America.

    With America more interested in being like Europe and being liked than in fighting its enemies, more and more countries are identifying with America’s enemies than with America. Last week’s three-way hug among the leaders of Brazil, Turkey, and Iran was a clear example of this.

    Meanwhile, America is rapidly accumulating unpayable debts that will render it not very different from Greece. Indeed, California, once the grease of the American economy, has become the Greece of the American economy.

    As the Left’s power increases, America’s power recedes — and the world further deteriorates. Under Democratic rule, the last, best hope of earth has decided that the United Nations and Western Europe deserve that title, not the United States.

    Those of us working to remove Democrats from power regard this November’s election as a referendum on the direction not only of America, but of the world itself.

    — Dennis Prager is a nationally syndicated radio talk-show host and columnist.


    Excellent article - if only too stuck on a moral viewpoint, it gets to the point of the existential misery in today's world.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Himster's Avatar Kamikaze
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Deus vult.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Adar's Avatar Cool enough for custom
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    I think you should be ashamed of posting such a poor and factually incorrect article. I honestly believe that you could have written a superior article yourself with very little effort rather than reposting such garbage that only undermines the intellectual credibility of your own beliefs.

    Lets start with the Nazism, Nazism is a secular ideology which means that it can be combined with any religion. In Nazi Germany for example, 54 % of the population were protestants, 40 % catholics and only 1.5 % unbelievers. Apparently being religious did not offer the Germans any kind of moral immunity to the horrors of Nazism.

    Then we have the muslims question. The author consider makes a huge leap and essentially attribute Iran to Nazism (which he has claimed to be atheistic despite the majority of the Nazis being more or less devout christians). Iran is however ruled by a theocratic government based on a religion closely related to Christianity. Trying to tie the "evils" of Iran to atheism is therefore a very poor attempt of guilt by association by this particular christian.

    It is also quite fun in a rather pathetic way to see how little the author actually know about the world when writing about this so called "post christian" wasteled. Russia is actually one of the nations where Christianity is expanding the most. Since 1990 the spread of nihilism has been parallalled by the spread of the Russian Orthodox church which now gathers support of 70 % of the Russian population. Kongo also got a strong christian background and has throughout the 20th and 21st century undergone a christian revival with missionaries. It is also one of the sub-Saharan nations with the longest tradition of christianity (the King of the area converted to christianity in the 15th century due to Portugese explorers) and is dominated by christians just like it's neighbour Rwanda were Tutsis and moderate Hutus were slaughtered by extremists Hutus supported by the local Baptists church.
    Last edited by Adar; February 25, 2012 at 12:58 PM.
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    basics's Avatar Kamikaze
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Adar,

    Regardless of what you say it is true to say that this world is spiraling downwards at an amazing rate and there is no-one able or even capable of slowing it down never mind stopping it. The writer gives reasons why in his opinion and you give reasons why not in your opinion and both sets of reasons come to one central point, Christianity or the lack of it.

    So, what is a Christian? Is he one who follows the word of God or is he one who is prepared to dilute the word of God for the sake of worldly fashion? Jesus said that there is only one type who can be Christian, that few ever get there, so we have to evaluate what is name only and what is real.

    To be a Christian is through rebirth an act of God. It does not come through institutionalised infant baptism as the major religions you describe, Rome and Orthodoxy, practise but they are not alone as some Protestants also practise it. The point is none of them are Christian but in name only.

    It is quite true that in some cases church attendance is going up but that is as much to do with fear as it is to do with their world becoming less safe, less affordable attributed to higher crime rates where society has let that happen through its liberalism and secularism, all stemming from a world held view that there is no God, only natural materialism.

    To say that Nazism only survived because of its Christian adherents is quite false. It was through Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, that bolstered Hitler's ideal of a master race and German so-called Christians of the infant baptised type in their easy believism fashion were persuaded of it.

    In today's world where man's greatest enemy is self and greed, there is another that waits to pounce as he discovers that he can't be selfish and greedy. Islam waits at the door, not on the outside but on the inside and their claim is that many are converting to it. If it ever gets a complete hold on man what that means is that of the six billion on this planet, three billion will be subserviant to the others.

    Women will become just as much like their counterparts across Islam and liberality will be blamed fairly and squarely for that, why? Because in their Darwinian ways these people have long forgotten God, despise His word, appeasing every single thing against it, thus having opened a wide path to chaos thinking it freedom, will know eventually what freedom really is, but when it is too late.

    It doesn't take much to realise what was and what is now. Man's problem lies in him thinking that things are great because he answers to no God and I talk of the West here in particular. What he doesn't realise is that he is letting in a replacement god who has no interest but his own to harness under a yoke all them who have those thoughts and mercilessly getting rid of them that do not.

    Aye, this is a god that has no mercy, not on this planet and as his mosques become more and more visible so too will the pressures build and the liberal left welcome this brotherhood with open arms. What's the problem? Only the motions have to be adhered to just as our fathers did when Christian and after all Sharia law will cut crime even if we are not as free as we once were.

    Might even see that corrupt UN being filled with Imams rather than the colleagues of every distasteful dictator this planet can throw up. I mean these guys are like wholesalers, middlemen, that ensure our money goes to the right place as long as their people don't know about it and therefore don't get it. Most are good Catholic boys nurtured like Mugabe and Zuma into Christianity by infant baptism so who cares what happens to them?

    You know its funny that our beloved BBC, that unbiased institution that champions multiculturalism and equal rights has mostly Roman Catholics fronting it never mind what is behind the scenes and when interviewing anyone, that's right, another Roman Catholic, whether in the studios or out on the streets as though Britain was made of adherents to Rome. But if you're going to get a balance make sure it's the right one.

    Don't dare talk about God on the BBC because unless that happens to be Dawking, Dawkins or Attenburgh the title cannot apply. Charles Darwin is the supreme being and the above three his great highpriests. All men are equal, just that some are a bit stronger than others, so what? Islam, what's Islam compared to our system? And as for crime, there are no criminals only misplaced victims who if they had not been there it wouldn't have happened to them.

    So, in all this what is the missing factor? I don't expect an answer from men and women who have never lived through that which I have. Have never seen any decline in the West but what they can only say as being good. But the answer is quite clear and this world is hurtling towards what has been written yet it despises it, despises who wrote it and more so for what purpose. As they went about their business the deluge came and carried them all away. There's another coming.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Mr. Prager is a kind of radio moderator, isn't he? And elections are in US this year. So, it's about votes not really morals, I guess.

    And btw. aren't the most urgent questions on a wider scale the global warming and the destruction of the biosphere? Wouldn't it be smart to approach these issues? I mean before we run out of time and don't we do quickly so? But gosh, gorillas, tunas finding no appropriate habitats and people confronted with rising sea levels and vanishing fresh water resources care little for elections. Bad luck, if you can't vote because you're a baboon or a herring.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; February 26, 2012 at 07:16 AM.
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    Adar's Avatar Cool enough for custom
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    To say that Nazism only survived because of its Christian adherents is quite false. It was through Darwinism, the survival of the fittest, that bolstered Hitler's ideal of a master race and German so-called Christians of the infant baptised type in their easy believism fashion were persuaded of it.
    I never said that Nazism only survived because of christians. I said that it is possible to be a nazi and a christian at the same time.

    You also seem to suffer from some rather serious issues with understanding natural selection and it's philosophical implications. If Hitler had been some kind of Darwinian fundamentalist, then he would have selected jews for breeding rather than genocide...
    In memoriam


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    basics's Avatar Kamikaze
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    " I never said that Nazism only survived because of christians. I said that it is possible to be a nazi and a christian at the same time."

    Adar,

    No, it is possible to believe you are a Christian and be a Nazi at the same time, but it is not possible to actually be a born again Christian, the only Christian that there is, and be a Nazi. Now if Hitler had been a born again Christian it is more than likely that he could have worked with the Jews but then he would have had trouble with the major religious systems who deemed the Jews to be Christ killers.

    That and the fact that they appeared to be the cause of Germany's ills, even in the mind of Hitler, that was enough to make them Germany's scapegoats and so it was that the religious found a champion in that fella and his perverted cohorts. Nazism did only survive because of these circumstances and so it wasn't hard to bring in the nonsense of a master race propogated by academics who saw that Darwinism was to overtake all that the church was supposed to stand for.

    As they funneled multiple numbers into the death camps did their belt buckles not afford the words, " God with us " as though the Almighty would be pleased and those numbers included thousands deemed sub-cultured, not fit to be on this planet. No born again Christian could ever give his or her support to that and many didn't and paid the ultimate price. Did this come from God or was it the result of a ridiculous theory. Today's world shows that it is the latter.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    ook, not worth arguing on that level. There is a heap of arguments to be made of the conditions of today, no doubt about it. However, these arguments seen in the article are so illiterate, and therefor sway no man to cry hosanna in your favor.

    If you want something done, do it yourself,

    Quote Originally Posted by Adar View Post
    I honestly believe that you could have written a superior article yourself with very little effort rather than reposting such garbage that only undermines the intellectual credibility of your own beliefs.
    ..It doesn't take a genious to see that.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Deus vult.
    Actually:

    Homines volunt.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightmare Moon View Post
    Actually:

    Homines volunt.
    I don't, I can only believe the things I'm convinced of. If I could believe what I wanted I'd believe in god, it's much easier to be a part of the majority.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Modestus's Avatar Baitai kihei
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    My my that article is one screwed up view of things.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    I don't, I can only believe the things I'm convinced of. If I could believe what I wanted I'd believe in god, it's much easier to be a part of the majority.
    I don´t understand you.

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    Veliky Kaiser Theos's Avatar Baitai kihei
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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    I daresay that human morals are at their finest at the moment (or at least in the West).
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Prager View Post
    THE UNITED STATES The United States was described by Pres. Abraham Lincoln as “the last, best hope of earth.” Most Americans agreed then. However, with the ascent of the Left in America — in our educational institutions, in our news and entertainment media, and in the arts world — fewer and fewer Americans believe this. On the contrary, the leftist view of America, which pervades American life, is of a country deeply morally compromised by endemic racism, sexism, homophobia, xenophobia, militarism, imperialism, and a rapacious capitalism that leads to immoral levels of economic inequality.
    Isn't the homophobia because of Christianity? The rest aren't too nice either though. It should be noted though, that xenophobia, militarism and imperialism have been around throughout human history, they're not necessarily unique to the US in this day and age. And while rapacious capitalism isn't all that nice, it's still preferable to the aristocracies of pre-modern times.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Prager View Post
    EUROPE Europe long ago gave up fighting for or believing in anything other than living a life with as much economic security, as many days off, and as young a retirement age as possible. World War I killed off European idealism; whatever remained was destroyed by World War II. What I have written about the Germans is true for nearly all of Europe: Instead of learning to fight evil, Europe has learned that fighting is evil.
    But they bombed Gaddafi and a lot of them took part in the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Prager View Post
    CHINA As in Russia, traditional virtues were largely destroyed by Communism in China, and China, too, is essentially a nihilistic state whose government spends its vast sums if foreign currency in buying influence in some of the cruelest places on earth (Zimbabwe, for example) and protecting the genocide-advocating regime of Iran.
    Traditional values? While imperial Chinese dynasties had always been fairly cruel places, and 21st century China isn't all that bad compared to 20th century or imperial China. Especially better than China in the 1920's.


    But I'll agree with or have no comment (due to having not a ing clue about it) on the rest though. A lot of the places that aren't traditionally Christian are a little backwards. But that's not necessarily because of Christianity. There's also a correlation between the growth of technology and the development of ideas such as human rights. If that relation were causative, it's only natural that such places are behind with their human rights.
    Last edited by Veliky Kaiser Theos; February 25, 2012 at 06:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Wow, that article made me dumber.

    The world today isn't any more full of "existential misery" than it has been at any other time. I'm agnostic and not nihlistic or miserable! Indeed, I actually have fun sometimes.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    I like how the the end of the world is riding on the 2012 election.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    The main problem with the article is that the Sikhs are right.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    One of the many beliefs — i.e., non-empirically based doctrines — of the post-Christian West has been that moral progress is the human norm, especially so with the demise of religion. In a secular world, the self-described enlightened thinking goes, superstition is replaced by reason and reason leads to the moral good.
    But I think we all agree morality is based on empathy and emotion.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    He sounds like a gloom and doom type of Christian. How are we in a Post-Christian world though? Also I wish people would stop relating ideology with morality. You can be atheist/religious and still be an evil person.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Wow this had the potential be really interesting. I was hoping to see my interest in the EMM revived.

    Instead I got this.

    Snore.

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    Default Re: Dennis Prager - We Are Living on a Post-Christian Wasteland

    Oj, we haven't been that good here and bitter tastes are laying over the tongue now and then.
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