View Poll Results: Do you support a precision strike on Syrian military targets against the use of chemical weapons?

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  • Yes, I do support a military strike.

    10 32.26%
  • No, I do not support a military strike due to a lack of evidence.

    5 16.13%
  • No, I do not support a military strike regardless of the evidence.

    13 41.94%
  • Not sure.

    1 3.23%
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Thread: The Syrian Civil War Thread

  1. #6901
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by frozenprince View Post
    Obviously the differentiation of different groups inside the larger, umbrella organization of the FSA, is totally not important in making distinctions about certain actions undertaken by them. Compared to a single, uniform army doing the same, or similar actions.
    My point is just that at this stage of the conflict nobody can for sure say who is going to be in charge if they succeed in overthrowing Assad, so that even the actions of a loony commander can carry more weight now since He has as much chance of being on the winning team as anyone. I would love to have the statistic of manpower and funding for the different members of the FSA coalition to make a guess, but ultimately we gonna wait for V-Day in Damascus to know who are really in charge.

    A basic dynamics of revolutions and civil wars is that as soon as there is victory the Coalitions explode because people want power, nobody can tell me today that the Islamist or the secularist are going to be in charge after Assad.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  2. #6902

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by frozenprince View Post
    Throw up the FSA CoC chart again? Then again it was summarily ignored last time.

    And Egypt and Syria are kinda, you know, two separate conflicts. One being a relatively bloodless abdication and transition, and the other being a brutal civil war.

    But obviously that's a meaningless detail.
    Whenever our friend here gets all tuckered out from his inane blathering I can get back to real talk and discuss today's roundtable meeting of the Washington Institute on the state of the opposition. Some pretty grim things were reported and some debate is raging in wider circles about the state of the SMC and overall opposition organization.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  3. #6903

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    The fact that said looney commander has no position of note in the grand, overall command chain of the FSA might dissuade the opinion that he could have a large say in the post war restructuring.

    Patronized by the mighty Heinz Guderian

  4. #6904

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    That, and the fact that the unit went from posting defiant statements on Facebook to being completely conciliatory and hastily broadcasting their "guests" as being completely safe, is pretty telling. The episode in reality casts a double shadow. On the one hand, it demonstrates the continuing fractious nature of the rebellion across ideological and even geographical lines. On the other hand it could very well show the reach and influence of the SMC and the organized opposition in that they were able to basically make these fellows in Quneitra pull a 180 overnight.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  5. #6905

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    I feel as though it is only a matter of time before the rebellion fractures and there's yet another 3+ way civil war in the middle east. While the government forces are clearly losing, the FSA is also obviously losing control of certain personnel. They seem to act as more of a conglomerate than an army


    "Weapons of war have no place on American streets." (President Barack Obama), which is why the DHS needs 1.6 Billion rounds of ammunition, 7000 MRAPs to be delivered by 2014, and one M-16 per agent.

  6. #6906
    Gertrudius's Avatar Hans Olo
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rights of the Individual View Post
    I feel as though it is only a matter of time before the rebellion fractures and there's yet another 3+ way civil war in the middle east. While the government forces are clearly losing, the FSA is also obviously losing control of certain personnel. They seem to act as more of a conglomerate than an army
    Because, you know, they are a conglomeration of groups rather than an army.

  7. #6907

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gertrudius! View Post
    Because, you know, they are a conglomeration of groups rather than an army.

    They united under a central FSA command structure about a month or so ago, if I remember correctly. Even so, this still furthers my point that the current "unified" rebellion will eventually devolve into a multiple sided slugging match between Assad, the non-Wahhabist FSA, and the Al-qaeda knock offs.


    "Weapons of war have no place on American streets." (President Barack Obama), which is why the DHS needs 1.6 Billion rounds of ammunition, 7000 MRAPs to be delivered by 2014, and one M-16 per agent.

  8. #6908

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Oh oh oh, like the 2nd civil war going on in Libya right now?

    Oh wait.

    Patronized by the mighty Heinz Guderian

  9. #6909

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Lol. Are they not two separate conflicts...? I didn't know they used cookie-cutter playbooks for their wars in the middle east. Certainly the multitude of nations funneling money into the warzone couldn't possibly have any sort of effect on the eventual outcome, correct? Far be it for the Iranians to push their own agenda, contrary to the US/Israel and Russian interests.


    "Weapons of war have no place on American streets." (President Barack Obama), which is why the DHS needs 1.6 Billion rounds of ammunition, 7000 MRAPs to be delivered by 2014, and one M-16 per agent.

  10. #6910

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    It's all tribal; nationalism hasn't worked, socialism hasn't worked, so let's go back to religion.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  11. #6911
    Gertrudius's Avatar Hans Olo
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rights of the Individual View Post
    They united under a central FSA command structure about a month or so ago, if I remember correctly. Even so, this still furthers my point that the current "unified" rebellion will eventually devolve into a multiple sided slugging match between Assad, the non-Wahhabist FSA, and the Al-qaeda knock offs.
    And what kind of direct influence do you think this centralized body has over individual rebel groups? Certainly not enough to classify it as an army in a conventional sense. I don't have a problem with your theory about the collapse of the rebellion into a second civil war, as I haven't done enough research to know if that's the probable outcome. What I do have a problem with is your implication that the FSA is "losing control" of it's forces, when the level of control it has over certain groups is in doubt; it's a disingenuous representation. It's not like we are talking about an organization like the FLN of the Algerian Revolution here, the FSA isn't militantly destroying competing organizations, rather it's trying to convince them to choose of their own volition to serve under the umbrella of their organization, which obviously reduces centralized control over groups who are taking action of their own accord.
    Last edited by Gertrudius; March 08, 2013 at 11:25 PM.

  12. #6912

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rights of the Individual View Post
    They united under a central FSA command structure about a month or so ago, if I remember correctly. Even so, this still furthers my point that the current "unified" rebellion will eventually devolve into a multiple sided slugging match between Assad, the non-Wahhabist FSA, and the Al-qaeda knock offs.
    Who is "they"?
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  13. #6913
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Has the urban warfare video of ANNA from Liveleak been posted already?
    Miss me yet?

  14. #6914

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Washington Institute for Near East Policy field report on Syria and the Opposition, March 7 2013. The whole thing is about an hour and a half long including the Q&A but it's worth it.


    Some key takeaways:
    -- The situation in Syria is disintegrating and threatens ever more to spill into several, if not all of, its neighbors, but most crucially Lebanon, due to the active involvement of some parties from there in the conflict
    -- Refugee situation in Syria's neighbors is terrible, Jordanian-Syrian border one of the world's most dangerous places; refugees attempting to flee are actively targeted and killed by government forces
    -- Current aid is not effective, particularly if distributed through rebel channels. Government aid distribution is currently more effective logistically, and aid organizations are geared towards interacting with state actors
    -- Syrian opposition across the board is growing more and more hostile to the United States and especially the White House, as a result of lack of support
    -- Arming the opposition is complicated by its fractious nature, with the Supreme Military Command and Syrian National Coalition lacking sufficient penetration into the Syrian opposition as a whole
    -- Fighting and combat prowess are most valued assets in Syria today and gives the most political legitimacy in an area
    -- Rebels shifting markedly towards the right, towards Islamism, towards jihadist tendencies
    -- Willingness and ability of Islamist and jihadist groups, as well as their better equipment and organization, makes them sought after and examples for others
    -- The war is as fractured as the opposition, localized and regionalized with no two units and no two operations the same size and composition
    -- Syrian regime is still intact and active. Has replaced its massive military losses with civilian militias
    -- Overall battle going well for the rebels; their influence keeps growing as the regime keeps receding
    -- Fragmentation of Syria and further proliferation of local and sectarian militias most likely outcome if no large changes come about, failed state likely without stepping up meaningful aid and political organization

    And much more. As if on cue, longtime secular opposition member Ammar Abdulhamid writes today:
    Where can one find a paradigm shift when one really needs one? With no one willing to provide it, is it any wonder that Syrians are turning to God, in the form of his self-appointed representatives on earth? It seems we’re screwed no matter where we turn, and a paradigm shaft is the only thing we can look forward to.
    The ever-lively people of Kafranbel reply to Secretary of State John Kerry's recent activities on Syria
    Last edited by motiv-8; March 09, 2013 at 02:50 PM.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  15. #6915
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    That, and the fact that the unit went from posting defiant statements on Facebook to being completely conciliatory and hastily broadcasting their "guests" as being completely safe, is pretty telling. The episode in reality casts a double shadow. On the one hand, it demonstrates the continuing fractious nature of the rebellion across ideological and even geographical lines. On the other hand it could very well show the reach and influence of the SMC and the organized opposition in that they were able to basically make these fellows in Quneitra pull a 180 overnight.
    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Whenever our friend here gets all tuckered out from his inane blathering I can get back to real talk and discuss today's roundtable meeting of the Washington Institute on the state of the opposition. Some pretty grim things were reported and some debate is raging in wider circles about the state of the SMC and overall opposition organization.
    lol, war/facebook = relevant....

    and then the knights of the roundtable at washinton NGO being super credible and awesome...

    this is going of the deep end, and everyone enjyoing that show as well...
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  16. #6916

    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Yeah thanks for your input Thorn, relevant and detailed as always.

    Speaking of Kafranbel, NPR's Kelly McEvers talks to a fighter from Jabhat al-Nusra there:
    Here are highlights of the conversation:
    On labeling the group
    Brother Huthaifa: I object to anyone calling us extremists.
    NPR: So what word would you use?
    BH: Mujahedeen (fighter for God).
    NPR: What is your vision for Syria?
    BH: We Muslims have a certainty, there is talk of the prophet who preached that the best place on earth is the Levant. He also said that God chooses whom he wishes to be his best followers to be from here. I hope God chooses me and this is why I came to here, too.
    NPR: What did you do before you came to Syria?
    BH: I was a teacher of Quran and a sharia [Islamic law] student, fourth year in Benghazi, Libya. [During the uprising against Moammar Gadhafi], I was fighting in Sirte.
    NPR: What is the goal of Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria?
    BH: There are orders from the general command of the group that it is not allowed to conduct suicide operations inside residential neighborhoods.
    On the group's attitude toward women
    NPR: Will women be required to wear hijab [if the current regime is ousted]?
    BH: Let me explain it this way. If I gave someone two lollipops ... one is covered and the other is not. Where will the germs and the bacteria go? To the uncovered one. And the same with the woman; if she is uncovered, the rotten one, who will the men chase? While if the woman is covered, even the most beautiful one, they will not chase her.
    NPR: That brings us to the wider question of an Islamic state, and what does that mean for the non-Muslims?
    BH: Preserving the Muslim society, that is the general rule. Prevention is the best treatment. What makes people commit sin is viewing porn films, listening to songs that provoke desire.
    NPR: You are also in a way not respecting the minds of men. You immediately think that they will chase a woman who is unveiled.
    BH: Prevention is the best treatment. Men mostly look at face and the body. Then he will be following women and Satan will be whispering into his ears.
    NPR: So why don't you put on a veil, too? There are women who chase men?
    BH: Are you really asking to get an answer or to argue?
    NPR: To get an answer.
    BH: Islam is a great religion. There is a verse that says: "Tell the believers to lower their gaze and guard their modesty. That is better for them, as God is aware of what they are doing. And tell the woman [believers] to lower their gaze and guard their modesty."
    On why the group is becoming more public
    BH: There are no guidelines regarding this matter. Because people want to come to Jabhat al-Nusra on their own. If you want to know about us, you can follow us on Twitter.
    NPR: But today you were a bit upset that the media didn't publicize your demonstration.
    BH: The problem is that the media has lost its credibility. The media's role is to convey what is happening on the ground without exaggeration. And it isn't the case. It's opposite. Especially when Jabhat al-Nusra was classified as a terrorist organization. It did not commit any terrorist acts outside Syria, and it doesn't have any links to al-Qaida, but it was classified as a terrorist organization. Why? Because it resisted [Syrian president] Bashar al Assad.
    NPR: In Syria, people have different beliefs than you. So the question is, how can you come from a different country and tell Syrians how to live their lives as Muslims?
    BH: In our religion, the believers are brothers and sisters. ... There is no such thing as Libyan, Syrian, Tunisian. We are all Muslims.
    On Islamic law
    BH: We believe in the prophecy of implementing an Islamic state.
    NPR: So once there is an Islamic state, there will be the cutting off the hands of thieves and the death penalty [for worse crimes]?
    BH: I decline to answer.
    NPR: The people of Syria deserve an answer.
    BH: Al-Hudud [the Islamic punishments for serious crimes] cannot be implemented except in a Muslim country with power and force. With cutting off hands, we would have to implement the several conditions necessary for an Islamic state before we could do that.
    NPR: We saw how your organization helped with bread distribution in Aleppo. Is it an important phase for you right now to earn the trust of the people?
    BH: Yes, Sheikh Abu Mohammad al-Joulani, who is the emir of Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria, wrote a letter titled, "People of Sham we sacrifice our souls for you." In it he said that Jabhat al-Nusa is not a political organization but a group that cares in the matters of all Muslims.
    Meanwhile, the 21 UN peacekeepers from the Phillippines taken by the Martyrs of Yarmouk Brigade have been released into Jordan:


    They were transported to the border by the rebels and then escorted into the country by Jordanian border guards. A previous attempt to secure their release directly by the UN failed when government forces shelled the town, Jamla, in which they were being held. However yesterday (Friday) a temporary cease-fire was negotiated to facilitate the transfer of the UN troops.

    Vanity Fair published excerpts of a diary written by NBC journalist Richard Engel during his captivity by a pro-regime militia in northern Syria, where he was freed by a unit from Ahrar al-Sham in December.
    [A group of about 15 armed men were fanning out around us. Three or four of them stood in themiddle of the road blocking our vehicles. The others went for the doors. They wore black jackets, black boots, and black ski masks. They were professionals and used hand signals to communicate. A balled fist meant stop. A pointed finger meant advance. Each man carried an AK-47. Several of the gunmen began hitting the windows of our car and minivan with the stocks of their weapons. When they got the doors open, they leveled their guns at our chests.
    Time was slowing down as if I’d been hit in the head. Time was slowing down as if I were drowning.
    This can’t be happening. I know what this is. This can’t be happening. These are the shabiha.They’re ****ing kidnapping us.
    “Get out!” a gunman was yelling as he dragged Aziz from the car.
    Then I saw the container truck. It wasn’t far away, parked off the road and hidden among olive trees. The metal doors at its rear stood open, flanked by gunmen.
    That’s where they are going to put us. That’s here for us. We’re going into that truck.
    I got out of the car. Two of the gunmen were already marching Aziz to the truck. He had his hands up, his shoulders back, his head tilted forward to protect against blows from behind.
    Maybe I should run. Maybe I should run right now. But the road is flat and open. The only cover is by the trees near the truck. Maybe I should run. But where?
    I saw John standing by the minivan. Gunmen were taking Ian toward the truck. It was his turn. Like me, John hadn’t been touched yet.
    Maybe they’ve forgotten us? Maybe they don’t want us?
    Our eyes made contact. John shrugged and opened his hands in disbelief. Time was going very slowly now, but my mind was racing like a panicked heart in a body that can’t move.
    “Get going!” a gunman yelled at me in Arabic, pointing his weapon at my chest.
    I looked at him blankly, pretending not to understand. Foreigners who speak Arabic in the Middle East are often assumed to be working for the C.I.A. or Israel’s intelligence agency, the Mossad. The gunman took me by the finger, holding on to it by the very tip. I could have pulled it away with the smallest tug.
    But then what? Then go where?
    John was the next to join us in the back of the truck. He walked slowly, as if being escorted to a waiting limo. John is a New Yorker and was dressed entirely in black. He has long white hair and a devilish smile, and his nickname is the Silver Fox. He and I had been in a lot of rough places—Libya, Iraq, Gaza. John, Ghazi, and Aziz were among my closest friends in the world.
    At least I’ll die with my friends.
    The rebel commander, Abdelrazaq, was confused. He thought this was a misunderstanding. He thought that this was a group of rebels who’d gone rogue and were acting like commandos.
    “What are you doing?” he yelled to the gunmen as they loaded him into the truck. “We are Free Syrian Army! We are Free Syrian Army! I am a commander with the Free Syrian Army.”
    We were traveling in rebel territory. Government forces weren’t supposed to be here.
    “Oh, you’re Free Syrian Army?” one of the gunmen answered. “Here’s to your Free Syrian Army.” He kicked Abdelrazaq in the face, then smashed a rifle butt into his back. The gunman seemed to be in charge of the others. We would learn that his name was Abu Jaafar. He spoke with a thick Alawite accent. Alawites are a sect of Shiite Muslims, and for four decades Alawites and Shiites have ruled over the rest of Syria. Bashar al-Assad is an Alawite. But Alawites and Shiites are only around 10 percent of the population. Almost all of the rest—and all of the rebels—are Sunni Muslims.
    This is a sectarian war. So are most of the conflicts these days in the old Ottoman provinces of the Middle East. We’d become part of a long fight that wasn’t ours.
    “Do you love Bashar?,” Abu Jaafar asked.
    “Of course I love President Bashar,” Abdelrazaq replied.
    “You don’t even deserve to utter his name, you animal,” Abu Jaafar said. Once again he kicked Abdelrazaq and beat him with his rifle butt.
    “We are journalists from American television,” I said in En*glish. One of the gunmen grabbed me by the hair and smashed my head against the metal wall of the container. “Who are you?” he asked in Arabic. I pretended not to understand.
    “We are journalists. We work for American television,” I said again.
    Everyone was in the truck by now. The metal floor smelled of diesel fuel and machine oil and was very cold and slippery. I kept sliding down as I sat with knees at my chest and my back to the container wall. I was watching Abu Jaafar beat the commander.
    Several of the gunmen closed the doors to the container and stayed with us inside. They turned on flashlights. They were prepared. Two of them lifted me to my feet and wrapped duct tape around my mouth, eyes, and wrists. They stripped off my belt and shoes. They did the same to the rest of the group. Now blind, I felt hands reaching into my pockets and taking my phone and my passport.
    They’ve done this before.
    I didn’t have much else on me. I had deliberately left my main mobile phone in Turkey. I’d cleaned my laptop, too, removing files and contacts that could be incriminating to a suspicious mind. We had each pared down before coming in. Kidnapping is always a threat in this life of reporting on men hurting one another because of religion and politics. An Israeli business card left in a wallet could be a death sentence. I knew that many of the shabiha gunmen would assume we were spies anyway—conspiracy theories are a weed in this part of the world. An Egyptian newspaper once publicly identified me as the C.I.A. station chief in Cairo. It seemed so stupid at the time. I was only 24, a little young to be a station chief, and, of course, I was never with the C.I.A.
    The truck started up and eased out of the grove. We could feel it traveling over bumpy roads. I’ve reported on Shiite militias butchering Sunnis, and on Sunnis bombing Shiites in Iraq. I still felt like a reporter. I was still on a story. This was sectarian violence. This wasn’t happening to me but to them. I was angry with myself for thinking that.
    Stay focused. You are here. You need to survive this. The first few hours are the most dangerous.
    The truck came to a stop about 20 minutes later. Metal scraped against metal as the rear doors creaked open. Light and cold air rushed in.
    “Where is the gunman?,” Abu Jaafar asked.
    “That’s me, sir,” said the young man in the green fatigues. Abdelrazaq’s bodyguard could not have been more than 20.
    Abu Jaafar’s men took the bodyguard out of the truck.
    “Finish him,” Abu Jaafar said.
    The gunmen had their AK-47s set on burst. They each fired four or five rapid shots, paused, then squeezed off another burst. The bodyguard didn’t scream or utter a word. He died too quickly for that. I heard his body hit the ground.
    Abdelrazaq started to shout at Abu Jaafar.
    “These people are journalists. They have nothing to do with this. I brought them here. I am responsible. Kill me. Let them go.”
    Abu Jaafar said, “Get the gasoline.”
    They drenched Abdelrazaq with liquid from a bottle.
    “No, no!” Abdelrazaq begged.
    “Burn him,” Abu Jaafar said.
    They splashed Abdelrazaq with more liquid.
    It was water.
    They wanted to break us and terrorize us and make us docile. They were having fun doing it. Abu Jaafar was laughing most of the time. In the coming days we would become familiar with his short, repetitive, girlish laugh: Heh, heh, heh, heh, heh.
    The doors of the container were closed again. The gunmen left us alone in the back of the truck. We could hear guns being charged outside. AK-47 rounds were chambered and ready to fire.
    Now they’ll spray the truck with gunfire and execute us all. They’ll shoot the truck from the outside so all the blood is contained.
    We all lay down in the truck, hoping they’d shoot over us. My face was pressed against the floor. I tucked my hands under my cheek to get it off the cold, greasy metal. I drifted off to sleep. There’s peace in sleep. Aziz was lying on top of me. I could feel his heat. He was wearing cologne and it smelled good. In sleep I could escape.
    Last edited by motiv-8; March 09, 2013 at 03:17 PM.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  17. #6917
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Ohhh, they sound like nice guys! No dangerous islamists at all!
    Miss me yet?

  18. #6918
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Treize View Post
    Ohhh, they sound like nice guys! No dangerous islamists at all!
    Its OK Treize. Once they are finished rebelling against evil reincarnated and being a subject at the roundtable and showing their beardy beards on facebook, they will move on to the next place, like maybe Iran or Pakistan if it doesnt behave. Syria will be brand new with the guys at the roundtable negotiating the IMF conditions and business contracts with them Muslim Brotherhood types doing the medival Islam act, but actually being good capitalist allies, while its just some womenz and gayz being slapped around a bit that wont exist because no one is reporting on it 24/7 mass media news cycle.

    In a sense our Oligarchies brothers in the spirit of Clerical Oligarchy.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  19. #6919
    magpie's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Hmm, If Assad is toppled the people who take over will be the ones with the most firepower.
    There sure as hell be be a lot of red faces in the west if its a full on Jihad group.

    sponsered by the noble Prisca

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    Default Re: The Syrian Civil War Thread

    Another thing also neglected in this thread is that allot of western Muslim youngsters went there, readily cheered on by our media. They didnt just go there while living productive lives here, and they prolly come back traumatized and more radicalized and outright incompatable with this society.

    But who cares about Europe these days anyway. Lets just become a museum for Chinese toursist. First we had these mediterranian-mideast EU expansion plans and 500 billion energy-companies investment plans in Lybia alone. Now we got a return to medieval inner Caliphate struggles.


    Wahhabism, no nonsense mercenaries, and trendy hipster facebook propaganda payed off.
    Last edited by Thorn777; March 09, 2013 at 03:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

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