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Thread: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

  1. #1

    Default Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Βασίλειον του Πόντου - The kingdom of Pontus


    The great Kingdom of Pontus has lost much it's territories after the first Mithridatic war, but your kingdom will still be one of the richest and most prosperous in the game. You'll have a great hold almost around the entire black sea and a good portion of Asia Minor.
    Even tough the first war with Rome would suggest Rome was far superior, the second war showed that with good commanders at the helm, Pontos can keep the Romans at bay. Your goals should be to try and secure the lands in Asia Minor. Once that is done, you may start thinking about attacking the Romans in their heartland, like the king tried a few year ago. Of course you may also expand in other directions, but that wouldn't be as wise, since the steppes aren't nearly as rich as the Roman provinces, and attacking your friend, the great king of kings, would probably be a mistake as well. Of course attacking the Romans with them ready, and you unprepared, would be a fools erand. You should try to forge an alliance with the various parties at war with Rome, especially the formidable Roman rebel Quintus Sertorius in Hispania.
    Who knows, you might even get a gift from him or two.

    The upsides of playing a faction as Pontus are clear; you will probably have the most diverse army in the game, capable to fight wars with multiple enemies. From local light infatry, to greek and Roman influenced units, from the warriors of the steppes to the peoples of the sea, from chariots to local nobles, a Pontic king will be able to summon armies as specific as required for various tasks. Your starting position is very strong, yet it could prove vulnerable, since the holdings of the King are divided by the great Pontus Euxinos, a great sea, which has almost became a Pontic lake.

    The downsides are pretty obvious as well. While diverse armies are great on one hand, they can prove to be of very low morale on the other, since there isn't really a true sense of unity amongst the warriors of the Pontic king.

    The key will be to hold your starting territories intact, and to try to avoid a full scale with Rome unless either the King becomes stronger the before, or civil turmoil strikes in the Urbs.

    Without a shadow of a doubt, Pontos will be one of the most interesting factions in EB NOM.

    The Pontic Army

    Like it was said before, the Pontic army will probably be the most diverse in game. You should try to use all the various fighting stiles at your disposal, and put together the best of all. The people willing to fight for you cannot be numbered; such is the sheer size of Mithridateses domain. Scythians, Sarmatians, Colchians, Thracians, Cappadocians, Galatians, Greeks are just a small part of the possibilites laying ahead of you.

    Further description of these units can be found on www.europabarbarorum.org

    Pandas - low tier hellenistic infantry - once a common sight in battles, their role has diminished, but they can still prove usefull from time to time.
    Basic hellenistic skirmishers; they should be used... Well... For skirmishing and not much alse.
    Basic eastern skirmishers; they should be used... Well... For skirmishing and not much alse.
    The basic slingers of the Pontic army.

    Eastern type of slinger. A solid ranged unit.

    Basic archers.

    Pretty decent medium infantry; usefull for skirmishing and melee.

    Solid all round cavalry, available in most parts of your kingdom

    Karian warriors; nice medium unit, tough very vulnerable to ranged troops.

    The nobility of the Galatians; a truly awesome cavalry unit.

    Young Galatians trying to prove their worth in their society.

    Very strong, almost elite Galatian unit, well able to preform most tasks on the battlefield.

    Crazy drugged naked warriors... No further explanation required

    Nice medium unit, very valuable against armoured troops.

    Nice medium unit, very effective against armoured opposition

    A much improved archer unit over the regular toxotai.

    light unit with a large shield and very long and pointy spears.

    One of the best archers in the game. Once they run out of arrows, they can still be used as solid medium infantry. A very rare combo in the ancient world.

    Horse archers with spears. A most powerfull combination

    One of the great units available to the Pontic king. Very well armoured, and can deliver a devastating charge.

    A variation of a unit intended to fight in the Roman manner, but with a lot of hellenistic influences as well.

    The last remaining unit of an era when the phalanx was the most used type of soldier around the known world.

    The lighter version of the Thureophoroi is one of the most common units used in the late hellenistic armies. They can prove more then capable of fighting off other light infantry and cavalry, but will suffer once the opposition becomes armoured.

    The Machairaphoroi are a very simmilar unit to the Thureophoroi, yet they use swords instead of spears. That gives them an advantage against other infantry, but puts them in a slightly worse position against cavalry. Overall a very usefull unit for it's price.

    the Tarantinoi have been used around the mediterranean extensively for the last 200 years. They are an excellent light cavalry, but that's all they are. Light cavalry.

    Basically a more armoured version of the Tarantinoi... Not as fast, but stronger in melee then their cousins.

    The chariots are still to be found in the Pontic army, even tough they performed poorly against Romans in their preview incounters. They are the reason why Mithridates became strong in the first place, since their charge broke the army of the Bythinian king in the First Mithridatic war.

    The Cappadocians have been employed by the Kings of Pontus for a long time, and these Cappadocian Nobles are the elite of the elite from that region. Armoured from head to toe, both horse and man, they are truly awesome sight on the battlefield. We have reports of Romans not attacking Pontic armies in the third Mitrhidatic war once they knew they had Cappadocians at their side.

    These warrior hail from the other side of the Pontus Euxinus. Well armoured and disciplined, they can be an excellent medium infantry. They should be used extensively in your northern front.

    A heavier version of the Thureophoroi mentioned before, the Thureophoroi Bareis are strong medium infantry, used best as anti-cavalry units.

    The Cholchians were, as described by Appian, the most warlike people in the armies of Mithridates. They are very well armoured, but their strenght comes from their warlike traditions and great morale. Put these men where the battle will be thickest, and you will not be sorry. While they may not be the Elite of the Elite, they wil still prove themselves in every battle you will make them fight.

    The Spathaphoroi are another version of "immitation legionaries". Fusing what's best from the Galatians, Greeks and Romans, these men can fight against almost all opponents. They should be used whenever it's possible. However, they will not come cheap, so be ready to dig in your pockets to recruit them.

    It all comes down to these guys. The are the personal guard of the Pontic Royal family. These men are the best of the best of what can be found in the Kingdom of Pontus. Armoud from head to toe, they are probably the best all round Heavy cavalry in the diadochi states since the Hetairoi of Alexander himself. They were a source of worry for the Romans in their wars with Mithridates, and were fiercly loyal to the king. We have at least 2 reports of these man saving Mithridates from certain death, and of them turning the tide of the battle in the favour of the Pontic king.


    I hope you liked the preview. Of course the descripitons are not final, but since i don't have much time right now, i thought it would be better to show you what we have done so far then spend more days to write the descriptions.

    A special thank you goes to FinnMacCumhail and LDC who made the new units, and of course to the rest of the EB NOM team for working on the mod.

  2. #2
    Visarion's Avatar Alexandros
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    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    good additions!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    very cool, guys. So is Pontos going to be the only faction with a sarissa/phalanx unit.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    That's an interesting quesiton. The problem is that sarissa/phalanx units were in a huge decline during this time, so there was talk from 3 factions having them to none... It is still subject to change till the final realise, especially since phalanx fighting is poorly portrayed in the rtw engine

  5. #5

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Quote Originally Posted by the man, the myth, the legend View Post
    very cool, guys. So is Pontos going to be the only faction with a sarissa/phalanx unit.
    According to the previews - which are of course old WIP and not final - also the Ptolemies may have a phalanx unit -> pic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis88 View Post
    That's an interesting quesiton. The problem is that sarissa/phalanx units were in a huge decline during this time
    If they are historically not verified for your period, then cut them. I like phalanxes, but if they weren't used (or only used very, very sporadically) then they shouldn't be in NOM. Treat them like buring pigs and dog units in EB > no exidence > no appearance. Eh?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis88 View Post
    especially since phalanx fighting is poorly portrayed in the rtw engine
    What do you mean with that? I'm a little startled. Also when altering their stats?! In M2TW there are problems afaik, but in RTW?! What do you mean. I'm honestly curious.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    The phalanxes were still used during the start of the mod. The question is how long after the game starts, and if they were used in enough numbers to justify a portrayal. For example, the phalanx was still used during the first Mithridatic war in numbers large enough that their portrayal would be absolutely necessary, however their used dramatically declined after the Romans again kicked them in the behind . But as we know, in antiquity changes were generally slow and took a few years. It would stand to reason that not all of the phalanx units were put out of commision the moment that war ended.

    The Ptolemies also used phalanx during this timeframe, but again, the numbers could've been very small, to small to be worthy to be represented. Both units were made, but the final decision whether they will be in the final release is still up to debate and more evidence. It will be definetly sorted out for the final release.

    What i was saying with the poor phalanx fighting... In rtw it's almost impossible to make a phalanx army march straight and not have them loose formation. It performs very well when you are just sitting there on the defensive, but when you attack the phalanx breaks up very easily. Of course the phalanx regroups instantly... They are hit in the back, and they move the sarissae in a second to fight the back attackers if they want while irl the line would be broken before the guys would even know what happened. Also, there's the exploit of making phalanx circles and such.

  7. #7
    Boriak's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Would it make sense to give Pontos a reform system? Before the reforms, they could have mostly Greek style units. After a certain date, for instance the arrival of Roman advisors (Sertorius sent Mithridates some co-Populares to train his army) in 74 BC could trigger the abandonment of the sarissa phalanx and implementation of Roman-like units. Of course this means a reform after just 24 turns of playing so that's where my other comment comes in about using more than four turns per year to slow down the pace of the game.
    Last edited by Boriak; July 27, 2012 at 04:34 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Like you said, the reform would come to soon. We've done a lot of work and research on some late units, after all, the romans will have mid imperial units, so the pace of the game would be just to slow with more turns.

  9. #9
    Boriak's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    You're right. In 24 turns there's no use for reforms. You could simply make the Roman-like units available at Level 4 or 5 barracks and that takes 10-12 turns each to build.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Will the Pontic Thoritikai be useful for their cost in this submod as in EB their price was quite expensive yet they get destroyed by Thureophoroi yet they're my favorite unit for my favorite faction.

    Also, good luck on the mod.

  11. #11
    gamegeek2's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Yes. I can assure you, units' cost will constitently reflect their capabilities, with variance from faction to faction of course (you can expect Germanic levies, for example, to be a bit more formidable than Pantodapoi).

  12. #12

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    I think a cheap, pre reform, levy caliber sarissa phalanx unit for very few factions like maybe pontos/ptolemies. would be resonable if you had any at all. I personally love phalanx units as im sure many others do, but I don't think they were very significantin the timeframe.

    Caesar did by the way fought ptolemaic phalanx at the battle of the Nile ??48-49bc.

  13. #13
    gamegeek2's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    What do you mean pre-reform? Before what reform?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman View Post
    Will the Pontic Thoritikai be useful for their cost in this submod as in EB their price was quite expensive yet they get destroyed by Thureophoroi yet they're my favorite unit for my favorite faction.
    You can very easily change their upkeep in EB with some simple changes in the EDU (here's a good explanation of the EDU-stats).
    Though the main drawback of the Pontikoi Thorakitai seems to be, that they use a shortsword (0.1 lethality) instead of a standard sword (0.13 lethality) or even a kopis (0.11 leathilty + ap-ability). Perhaps simply increasing their lethality would make them more cost-efficient (for you / your campaign). Changes to upkeep and lethality are btw 100% savegame-compatible.

    PS: For a list of lethality in EB1.2 see 'spoiler a' here.


    Quote Originally Posted by the man, the myth, the legend View Post
    I think a cheap, pre reform, levy caliber sarissa phalanx unit for very few factions like maybe pontos/ptolemies. would be resonable if you had any at all. I personally love phalanx units as im sure many others do, but I don't think they were very significantin the timeframe.
    As Anubis88 already said/implied (and you also mention), phalanxes will perhaps not be in NOM, if they weren't used to any greater extend - which is fine I'd say, as NOM covers a different timeframe than 'vanilla' EB. But if they're in due to historic reasons and the team's decision, that's also very fine.


    Here're some ideas regarding Macedonian (sarissa-)phalanxes in NOM:

    The initial situation: in NOM's timeframe Macedonian style phanlaxes weren't used anymore or were hardly used by only a few states; and were in general on a steep decline (even for the one or two factions that still had/used them at the beginning of NOM's timeframe) = all very legit reasons to not have them in NOM at all

    The ideas (only if there's enough space in EDU / model slots)...

    • [A] give those factions a unique building in their capital that allows for recruiting sarissa-phalanxes, but that is destroyed at a certain date or when building XY was build (or something along that line)
    • [B] perhaps give factions like the Ptolemies and Pontos a few sarissa-phalanxes in their starting armies (but no recruiting possibility)
    • [C] use the script to spawn (say 2-3) sarissa-phalanxes near those factions' capitals a few times within the first 20 years (or so) of the campaign (but no recruiting possibility)


    PS: @ Anubis88 - Thanks for your detailed reply in post #6!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    I read about the edu before, I even made their stats better than the cohors reformata (Including lethality) but they still lose against mercenary Thureophoroi who cut them down with ease. (The stats were better than theirs too, so I gave up and never played as pontos again. I decided to try a Rome campaign though

  16. #16

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    Quote Originally Posted by BroskiDerpman View Post
    I read about the edu before, I even made their stats better than the cohors reformata (Including lethality) but they still lose against mercenary Thureophoroi who cut them down with ease. (The stats were better than theirs too, so I gave up and never played as pontos again. I decided to try a Rome campaign though
    Did you play with battles on "hard" or "very hard"? "Hard" gives the AI +4 attack, and "very hard" gives the AI +7 attack.

    Chaning their lethality should do the trick, but apart from that they aren't an elite truely unit anyhow. Defense, armour and morale of the Pontikoi Thorakitai (Pontic Heavy Infantry) are more that of a 'medium' unit. Compared to the more 'elite' Thorakitai Hoplitai (Greek Heavy Hoplite Phalanx) (better armour, better morale, better sword = ie. ap-kopis) for example.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    I play on M/M and sometimes H/M. I don't play europa barbarorum a lot but can you give me your edu so I can see if there's something wrong with mine?

    Thanks for the help, now if only if I can give you rep as I saw your other posts and they were helpful.


  18. #18

    Default Re: Preview : Basileion tou Pontou

    What do you mean pre-reform? Before what reform?
    I just meant that if pontos were to have a reform they (ie sarissa-phalanx) could be available before but not after said reform.

    But im sure you guys have already thought all about this. Oh and by the way AWESOME job guys. I cant wait to play. Im really looking forward to it.

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