SS map of Carpathian basin

[David93]

No problem, here you go

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Csatádi]

For such a big map the geography seems oversimplified. Enlarged vanilla with some handwork.

Brasov never was so important. Gyulafehérvár was.
Esztergom lost its influence during the mongol invasion (1241) so it might be interesting to pick Fehérvár (modern: Székesfehérvár) instead. Your choice.

Borders are wrong. Check this map: http://taneszkozok.hu/uploads/shop/t...k/2738_big.jpg (You will find more detailed maps in the how to mod Hungary topic)
Skip the Szörényi Bánság, it was occupied only around 1228. It's Western Wallachia.

I hope it is obvious you forget to add Slavonia and Croatia to the kingdom. On the eastern parts you gave too much territory however. Those were mostly uninhabited. Check euratlas 1200 for example.
Hard to judge but maybe the northwestern parts are too big, too, in the favor of Hungary.

Belgrade was called Nándorfehérvár in Hungarian. It might be cool to write a rename script.

[Kaidonni]

I'm currently creating a submod for the submod Byg's Grim Reality V for Stainless Steel 6.4, and since I'm adding/changing factions, I decided I'd visit the Kingdom of Hungary and depict them more accurately. I'm hoping somewhere along the way to gain permission to use units from Magyar Mod in my submod, so I've started messing about with the SS 6.4 campaign map, improving the lakes and depicting two of the swamps as lakes (as permitted).

Now, I'm not too sure how much SS 6.4's geography is true to the real world. A lot of work has gone into the map on the part of the SS team, and they've done an excellent job. It's just the extra little things that can be missed out.

I've attached some screenshots to my post of my initial work. I've focused only on lakes so far, not on redoing provinces or settlements (lots of redrawing of the provinces is to come for the whole map - I'm adding the Kingdom of Bulgaria as one of the extra factions, and Tarnovo isn't even on the map for the later period). I haven't done anything to the rivers yet, or the woodland and swamps. I didn't select Hungary when I started this test campaign after editing the map.

EDIT: Yeah...gotta do something about that one road running over the lake.

[Csatádi]

We prefer historical things which is not SS. I've just seen SS 6.4 mailed knights unit some days ago. They look painful. But obviously it's not a problem for the public.


Well, the lakes look cool.

Here you are a political map to 1225. Made with Centennia. Not 100% reliable for example it calls Slavonia to Croatia. But it's a good start.

[Attacke]

Szevasztok Csatádi and the Magyar Mod Team,
I used to watch your Mod progresses for over a year now (to be accurate since February 2011). Especially your Hungarian unit designs are simply the best in Total War modding history.
I really would love to see your Hungarian Mod, with it´s map accuracy and it´s units design and it´s Hungarian nobles names in Stainless Steel 7.0.
So as a german I would say: Geb Dir einen Ruck - gib Deinem Herzen einen Ruck! Bitte!

[shikaka]

Szevasztok Csatádi and the Magyar Mod Team,
I used to watch your Mod progresses for over a year now (to be accurate since February 2011). Especially your Hungarian unit designs are simply the best in Total War modding history.
I really would love to see your Hungarian Mod, with it´s map accuracy and it´s units design and it´s Hungarian nobles names in Stainless Steel 7.0.
So as a german I would say: Geb Dir einen Ruck - gib Deinem Herzen einen Ruck! Bitte!

An accurate map of Hungary (or Eastern Europe in general) in Stainless Steel? That would be surprising

[Attacke]

An accurate map of Hungary (or Eastern Europe in general) in Stainless Steel? That would be surprising

Why?
I think it is clear, that there always has to be a compromise between playability and reality-therefore it is only a game.
But when I watch Csatádi´s, Kaidonni´s and other Modder´s work I hope, the best compromise for most of the players will be found some day.

[shikaka]

Why?
I think it is clear, that there always has to be a compromise between playability and reality-therefore it is only a game.
But when I watch Csatádi´s, Kaidonni´s and other Modder´s work I hope, the best compromise for most of the players will be found some day.

SS is a western europe orientated mod, which is not aiming historical accurancy but rather looking at the era through a lense of popular culture.
The main SS team usually disregards regions where it (popculture point of view) doesn't exist. Just watch the hungarian skins or eastern euro map (and compare it with western europe) It's not a compromise, it's lack of effort.

[Csatádi]

I really would love to see your Hungarian Mod, with it´s map accuracy and it´s units design and it´s Hungarian nobles names in Stainless Steel 7.0.
So as a german I would say: Geb Dir einen Ruck - gib Deinem Herzen einen Ruck! Bitte!

I think what we ask for modders like a map in which Hungary looks like Hungary should be natural for serious modders and it should be in their game since years.

[Stario]

SS is very much still a work in progress. There are also some really nice sub-mods available that improve the models and gameplay (in contrast to vanilla SS).

[Yggdrasill]

SS is a western europe orientated mod, which is not aiming historical accurancy but rather looking at the era through a lense of popular culture.
The main SS team usually disregards regions where it (popculture point of view) doesn't exist. Just watch the hungarian skins or eastern euro map (and compare it with western europe) It's not a compromise, it's lack of effort.

It is extremely unfair, even rude, to call anything to do with Stainless Steel a lack of effort.

Stainless Steel makes improvements across the board, from units, maps, UI, music, gameplay, AI, battle AI, recruitment, animations, new factions, combat...everything is improved! They are not refusing anything or anybody who can help, and they are certainly not ignoring eastern europe just to be mean.

if some parts of the game don't receive the same attention, this is not some big conspiracy or bigotry on part of the modders - they simply do not have the time, the resources or knowledge to improve everything. But they are continually trying to improve - Stainless Steel will soon see its version 7.0, and RR/RC submod of it is also soon to receive an update.

[Kaidonni]

Using some of SSMap's altered regions/settlements and a bit of research, I've attached what I have so far for 1225 (keeping in mind that this is a WIP, so ignore the flags - especially those meant for the Bulgarian settlements - and armies/agents that I haven't relocated).

Ignore the fact that the Cumans don't seem to be linked up properly - I've been away from M2 modding for a bit, and I haven't touched them yet except for assigning the appropriate regions near Hungary and Bulgaria to them. They certainly won't be so isolated in the final version. Also ignore other regions apart from the Hungary and Bulgaria regions, I haven't touched those yet either. Finally, there does appear to be some discontinuity in the screenshots as concerns Croatia and Bosnia...I altered them while take the screenshots, the first attached pic is the latest one (the others are still the latest, just right before I made a few tweaks courtesy of Dominick in the SSMap thread). No names touched yet, but that is a major concern of mine - I want to build large and historically accurate family trees going back as far as possible, and any changes in naming conventions may make this a bit tricky.

SSMap has updated the rivers and ground types quite a lot from 'vanilla' SS. Only problem is that it's Early era, mine is a 1225 start, so the region boundaries will likely have changed.

[Kaidonni]

So...am I heading in the correct direction with the regions/settlements? Also, how should I approach the extended family trees when naming conventions change over the centuries (i.e. are there versions of the older names I'd be able to use without it looking completely out of place or ahistorical?)?

[Csatádi]

The only single note about the rivers is the line of the Duna. It is quite straight. Some low hills seems missing, see my map.
About ground types, you might need more swampy area, see the maps here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...15#post2589715

Less forests on the lowlands. You might put more than me because 1225 is at the start of the little ice age. The forest steppe flora changed to forest on the lowlands. But I would use only more little meadows than big forests.

Do you want to make a family tree with a lot of dead people? As I know one name might appear in the descr strat file once. So you need to make a lot of copies. The list of rulers go to the 9th century.

In 1225 I would use mostly Christian names.

In the case of Hungary there were little boundary changes. In the Carpatians flow the border on the middle of the hills.

[Kaidonni]

The only single note about the rivers is the line of the Duna. It is quite straight. Some low hills seems missing, see my map.
About ground types, you might need more swampy area, see the maps here: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...15#post2589715

Less forests on the lowlands. You might put more than me because 1225 is at the start of the little ice age. The forest steppe flora changed to forest on the lowlands. But I would use only more little meadows than big forests.

Do you want to make a family tree with a lot of dead people? As I know one name might appear in the descr strat file once. So you need to make a lot of copies. The list of rulers go to the 9th century.

In 1225 I would use mostly Christian names.

In the case of Hungary there were little boundary changes. In the Carpatians flow the border on the middle of the hills.

Yes, I make family trees with lots of dead people. The Capet tree I made for my submod is huge (and is about to get bigger). I feel it adds historical flavour, as it can show how far back a family line goes, and the major changes over the years in succession. I do limit it to the more noteworthy characters, and if there's a side-tree, it's usually only explored if it for instance leads to a marriage with a king or prince from another kingdom, or if it loops back into the family tree later on (the Flanders/de Hainaut family tree loops right back in to the Capet tree through Isabelle de Hainaut marrying Philippe II). I've found that if surnames are included in the character records and relative lines, then a non-localised name can be used multiple times (so for instance if I have a Philippe Capet, a Philippe de Courtenay, and a Philippe de Flandre, and they appear both as sons and parents, using the surnames in each instance allows me to use the same version of Philippe). My main source, particularly for France and England, has been http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CONTENTS.htm.

As for the other things you mentioned, I'll get right on to those.

[Csatádi]

Royal names weren't used much by common people except the christian ones. But it's not a problem. Important the Árpád dynasty name is not authentic in the medieval age. The ruling dynasty had no surname at all. When such a title was important authors referred them as 'from the genus of the holy kings'.

The site you linked is cool. Their collected articles are easy to use as a source.
Some charts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...d-h%C3%A1z.jpg
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-m...4-7977D665.gif

Edit:
Something to consider. The Géza name was made by 19th century historians and used since that time. The original name was Gyeicsa by modern Hungarian spelling or something similar. Geysa, Geycha etc. in medieval latin. Even most of Hungarians don't know it either. I used this spelling in the Magyar mod.

[Kaidonni]

So, as far as the ruling dynasty goes, is any sort of byname appropriate? Maybe an equivalent to 'of Hungary' (but localised, certainly not in English) that fits in with the time period?

EDIT: Since I've been working on region borders a lot, I visited Poland's borders (how SS got that way wrong also...it was absolutely terrible!), and I have attached a screenshot of the border of Lesser Poland with those of Hungary's. It's tricky trying to blend them together.

[Csatádi]

So, as far as the ruling dynasty goes, is any sort of byname appropriate? Maybe an equivalent to 'of Hungary' (but localised, certainly not in English) that fits in with the time period?

I think this is the best: 'from the genera of the kings' = "a királyok nemzetségéből".

EDIT: Since I've been working on region borders a lot, I visited Poland's borders (how SS got that way wrong also...it was absolutely terrible!), and I have attached a screenshot of the border of Lesser Poland with those of Hungary's. It's tricky trying to blend them together.

The outer borders look fine. I cannot judge the little details of course but I'm interested in the big things.
In the case of Szlavónia (Slavonia) you should use the medieval borders and not the modern day Croatian borders.

[Kaidonni]

I've now tweaked the borders of Croatia, and re-directed the Dana. Also, I paid a visit to the borders around the Carpathians again. Haven't touched adding in hills and extra swamp yet.

On the naming front, my concern with 'from the genera of the kings' is if a non-family member pops up with the byname, such as a spy or bishop or diplomat. I know captains won't, nor admirals.

[Csatádi]

What is Dana?

Croatia was part of Hungary and not Venice.

On the naming front, my concern with 'from the genera of the kings' is if a non-family member pops up with the byname, such as a spy or bishop or diplomat. I know captains won't, nor admirals.

The issue is the same with any surname in any country.
Sometimes bastard sons became bishops for example king Károly's son in the first half of the 14th century.