Byzantines ruin early era campaigns

[Antipater999]

Okay I know this subject is well trodden and i have read the previous threads or most of them. And the main justification for this perversion of military history seems to be based on the fact that in later campaign Byzantine units become relatively weaker. yes if one starts an later era campaign they are by that point completely useless and easy to roll over, in fact probably too easy relative to their practical invincibility in early era campaigns.

Now I'm moaning because i think it ruins the campaign for any local neighbours, such as Venice, Hungary, Sicily etc.. They just do not stand a chance if left to the fate of the roll of the dice. I have played close to 100 early campaigns and almost in every one of them Byzantium steam/roll everyone. problem is there is a threshold of power from which Byzantium cannot be defeated without cheating.

So what i do to try to give some balance to the game is cheat not for me, but i give AI victims of Byzantines heavy infantry units in their cities or castles through "create_unit" when under attack, so i slow down the Byzantines.

Anyone do the same? Basically i just don't think its fun on early campaigns when any one faction becomes so dominant, and invariably its Byzantium. I even slow myself down.

[Saibot42]

They steamrolled my last game, but they've been pretty quiet in the current one. It's crazy how differently things can play out from one campaign to the next.

[rillstooney]

Me, I don't mind it. Usually in my campaigns not enough great empires form so there's no challenge going up against all these small nations (using Savage AI). I love when two big empires clash and you get this "oh, it's on" feeling. I can see how it might get a bit boring if the Byzantines always get into a dominant position though, although for me it feels like the Seljuks keep a lid on them a lot of the time.

[Strengelicher]

[rb9o]

I've never seen this behavior in the 20 or so games I've played. Byzantium seems to mostly engage in grinding wars with Turks, Venice, Sicily, and Fatimids that never go anywhere. Very little change in territory occurs without player intervention.

[Antipater999]

I've never seen this behavior in the 20 or so games I've played. Byzantium seems to mostly engage in grinding wars with Turks, Venice, Sicily, and Fatimids that never go anywhere. Very little change in territory occurs without player intervention.

Early era campaign with savage AI? Thats what i play mostly and i guarantee you it happens almost every time without divine intervention....hehe :-)

[Melooo182]

From what i've seen every time the Byz decide to expand northward they find it quite easy, maybe the turks can hold them but apparently early cumans and hungarians do not fare so well against them.

[rb9o]

Early era campaign with savage AI? Thats what i play mostly and i guarantee you it happens almost every time without divine intervention....hehe :-)

Yeah. And I guarantee you it doesn't happen every time.

[LusitanPlayer]

From what i've seen every time the Byz decide to expand northward they find it quite easy, maybe the turks can hold them but apparently early cumans and hungarians do not fare so well against them.

Its near impossible playing against them with my beloved hungarians.

[Deteriorate]

It is difficult to beat them back but not impossible. I played a Venetian campaign on Hard/Hard where I sent my Ragusa garrison to attack Belgrade, and split my Venice garrison between Ancona and the little town east of Venice. After they were conquered I combined nearby forces to besiege Milan. After it fell I took Scopia and then immediately went to war with Byzantium. I had a complete alliance with Hungary with military assistance and access and together we took Bari, Durazzo, Sofia, Arta, Corinth, Athens, Thessalonika and Adrianople by turn 40. The trick is to get other factions to join the war with you and hit them before they start pumping out scoutatoi. I had to recruit anything I could including peasants to match their numbers, lost thousands of men, lost Thessalonika and Sofia briefly but it was still a quick and successful campaign against them. The only problem is being too far away to prevent them from becoming a behemoth, and if that's the case you can mostly expand in another direction until you can confront them.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[LusitanPlayer]

Right now i am planning on taking a few more steps and building a might army. once i'm done (i am hungary, i have belgrade and zagreb already), i will try to attack them, i am just not sure were, if i should start taking them piece by piece, or take them where it hurts, and go straight to constantinople, i still need bulgaria first.

[Roman Soldier]

I modded it so that all Byzantine units are available from the start & do not disappear.
Also edited a lot more of them.. does that count as cheating?

[Saibot42]

They're tough again in my current game, just didn't happen as quickly and they haven't vassalized anyone yet. Once I finish with the French I plan to send troops over there and help out, hopefully trade a settlement or two from Zagreb. I already have an army of priests repairing Ragusa's religion, then plan to "attack" Belgrade with them.

[Deteriorate]

Right now i am planning on taking a few more steps and building a might army. once i'm done (i am hungary, i have belgrade and zagreb already), i will try to attack them, i am just not sure were, if i should start taking them piece by piece, or take them where it hurts, and go straight to constantinople, i still need bulgaria first.

I think Constantinople makes 400 a turn each from trade with Adrianople, thessalonika and a few others. They will definitely start to feel it if you take the regions that are easier to pick off and that trade with Constantinople. What I did was take a full stack, threaten thessalonika or Adrianople, when they move their forces to defend those cities, I had a half stack sweep behind and capture Durazzo and Arta which were left practically unguarded. Then I placed my stack on the bridge leading from Thessalonika to the rest of Greece to cut off their armies from reinforcing Corinth and Athens. They fell soon after. This way I captured cities without huge losses in sieges and fought their stacks only in the field.

[LusitanPlayer]

I think Constantinople makes 400 a turn each from trade with Adrianople, thessalonika and a few others. They will definitely start to feel it if you take the regions that are easier to pick off and that trade with Constantinople. What I did was take a full stack, threaten thessalonika or Adrianople, when they move their forces to defend those cities, I had a half stack sweep behind and capture Durazzo and Arta which were left practically unguarded. Then I placed my stack on the bridge leading from Thessalonika to the rest of Greece to cut off their armies from reinforcing Corinth and Athens. They fell soon after. This way I captured cities without huge losses in sieges and fought their stacks only in the field.

there is a small logistical problem here, you can invade by sea, and go straight to greece and raid the coasts, i on the other hand, have just started a war, because i had an army near sofia, but when i arrived it was too late and they had taken it. I proceeded to wait their garrison leave, and besieged it (the war was inevitable), meanwhile, their EMPEROR WAS STUPID ENOUGH to try and march past my big garrison in skopia, and try to take belgrade, i took him on his way, and thank god, i captured him and got myself 12.000 florins from him. that gave me a breather, i then took a sieging army in skopia and a convoy going again to belgrade, belgrade has a small garrison right now, but i used all that 12.000 to pump some units from my capital up north, so i am sending a few foot archers from zagreb, some spearmen from kassa and varad, as well as a quick small raiding unit straight from the capital that can arrive sooner. when they all arive it will be a little late but i will at least be able to surround them with their forces combined with belgrade's garrison.
the army i have stationed in sofia will have to stay there for some time, my spies havent taken a look on thrace region yet, i want to take their cities and leave them with nothing more than a few scattered castles.
If everything go right, i can take Thrace which is a castle, and maybe the region of Epirus (which i forgot the name, but its a castle on the west of greece?)
its much harder to fight them, because, you see, on sieges, i have no infantry, i am using hungarians. i usually fight in open fields, surrounding them with cavalry, taking their smaller armies. so far i whiped out 3, and i hope to take another 3, i have been taking near no casualities, since the magyar cavalry and nobles can snipe their shock cavalry and acritae before they can deal any damage, and after that their formation is broken, if they have generals (which are broken, 30 armor wtf, they NEVER die, once i tried to fight in a custom, hungarian general + 2 nobles vs one byzantine general, guess what? ....) well, if they have them, i keep firing at them from all sides, when they try to charge me they are already broken in a half or less, so i can hold them off, after that i use the nobles to whipe out small spearmen groups or toxotae who are already fleeing. so far has been working wonders, but i have to say, they are so hard to play against, right now i am also alone against them.
Early campaign feelings hahaha.

[Deteriorate]

"early campaign feelings" lol ya the struggle is real

[RuleBritannia]

Playing Very Hard/Hard, I had to give up on my 130-turn Venice campaign because of the Byzantines. By turn 130, they were at war with every faction, owned 65% of the map, and had over a dozen full stacks of their armored spearmen near my borders and my ally's. They attacked me, and my high-chevroned gunpowder troops and swordsmen inflicted about 55 casualties on them, whilst I lost thousands. I think the main issue is that Byzantine's stronger units are very cheap, and the AI tends to stackspam the "Scoutaloi", or whatever they're called, and cavalry. A single unit of Byzantine cavalry broke through and routed 10 of my spear regiments. I think the underlying issue is that Byzantine's units, early-campaign, are meant to be high-quality but low-quantity. The issue is, with the economic AI bonuses, Byzantine turns into high-quality, very-high-quantity. Nothing on the map can stop them.

[LusitanPlayer]

Thats roman empire for you, i guess anyone has any idea how to kill their generals, btw?

[the man, the myth, the legend]

Tie them up with some spearmen, then hit them on thier right side or back with javelins, lots of them, at the same time have an AP unit hit them on their left. That should do it.

[Saibot42]

Well with the French dug in impossibly at Metz, it's time to save Hungary from elimination at the hands of the Byzantines.