I believe it's time we called a truce.

[Lazarus]

Perhaps you should first enlighten us to their binding contracts and "various formalities"?

What about 40 unit stacks...why did it take modders over two years to finally solve this when CA could have explained it to them in five minutes?

Did you sign up for FotS beta? (or any beta for that matter?) If you did, did you actually take the time to read the Non-disclosure agreement? I'm not criticizing you if you didn't most people don't, just like ToS. But if you actually sit and read an NDA, you'll realize there is a whole bunch you aren't allowed to do.

NDA's are legally binding. For people in the beta, you break it, the worst that can really happen is you get kicked out of the beta (unless you do something drastic, like reverse engineer the software. Then you're likely to find yourself in court). For most of us though, any violations of the NDA would hardly be worth notice because it's hard to prove that we did it, and it's also hard to monitor us all.

However, CA, as a company, has a list of all their employees who have access to information, such as the engine used, scripting lines, modelling software and all that other trash. If, for whatever reason, ANY of that is included in the NDA that Sega gets them to sign, and someone from staff still discusses it with us, it can cost them their jobs. They have a lot more at stake than us.

As far as why CA didn't explain how to mod in 40 units? If CA advises us to do something with the game, and we do it, and it breaks the game, we can hold CA legally liable. Discussing it may have been a subject of the NDA. The bandaid method (that is, the one used in NTW and I think ETW) didn't really work, you wouldn't get all the unit cards anyway. Perhaps they didn't know if the AI/engine could handle it. A whole myriad of possibilities as to why they didnt tell us. I'm betting on the NDA though. Those things are the devil.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

when CA could have explained it to them in five minutes?

How much presumption is loaded into that statement..? You know it would take five minutes because..? Stupid remark.

[Huberto]

Did you sign up for FotS beta? (or any beta for that matter?) If you did, did you actually take the time to read the Non-disclosure agreement? I'm not criticizing you if you didn't most people don't, just like ToS. But if you actually sit and read an NDA, you'll realize there is a whole bunch you aren't allowed to do.

NDA's are legally binding. For people in the beta, you break it, the worst that can really happen is you get kicked out of the beta (unless you do something drastic, like reverse engineer the software. Then you're likely to find yourself in court). For most of us though, any violations of the NDA would hardly be worth notice because it's hard to prove that we did it, and it's also hard to monitor us all.

However, CA, as a company, has a list of all their employees who have access to information, such as the engine used, scripting lines, modelling software and all that other trash. If, for whatever reason, ANY of that is included in the NDA that Sega gets them to sign, and someone from staff still discusses it with us, it can cost them their jobs. They have a lot more at stake than us.

As far as why CA didn't explain how to mod in 40 units? If CA advises us to do something with the game, and we do it, and it breaks the game, we can hold CA legally liable. Discussing it may have been a subject of the NDA. The bandaid method (that is, the one used in NTW and I think ETW) didn't really work, you wouldn't get all the unit cards anyway. Perhaps they didn't know if the AI/engine could handle it. A whole myriad of possibilities as to why they didnt tell us. I'm betting on the NDA though. Those things are the devil.

Since CA/SEGA owns whatever they own and so they have to decide what they are willing to share and what they are not willing to share of that. Of course there are many, many developers who publish mod tools so why CA/SEGA would not be able to this makes no sense. There is nothing special about TW in this regard. It is obvious they do not create tools becasue they choose not to). As far as modding the game, breaking it and holding CA/SEGA responsible if that isn't explicitly covered in the EULA it would certainly not result in litigation or entitle anyone to damages. Since you and I and the Chevalier all know that mod support for TW is viable you are definitely grasping at straws.

[Fireright]

What about 40 unit stacks...why did it take modders over two years to finally solve this when CA could have explained it to them in five minutes?

Why would the game makers want to explain anything to a group of guys who routinely roll around the net slagging off their games as 'vanilla' ?

If these 'geniuses' wished to cultivate goodwill with the game makers they'd refer to their games as 'standard' or 'regular' game.

Fookin obvious in my book.

[fredtrotter]

Why would the game makers want to explain anything to a group of guys who routinely roll around the net slagging off their games as 'vanilla' ?

If these 'geniuses' wished to cultivate goodwill with the game makers they'd refer to their games as 'standard' or 'regular' game.

Fookin obvious in my book.

Thats because Vanilla is the most basic icecream, It is also one of the tastiest

[Chevalier IX]

Perhaps you should first enlighten us to their binding contracts and "various formalities"?

What about 40 unit stacks...why did it take modders over two years to finally solve this when CA could have explained it to them in five minutes?

CA as well as any other company are not permitted to openly instruct the user on the usage of community made modding tools which will allow any manner of alteration to the base of which they provided.Notice when modding tools are released in an official capacity there are not set instructionals as to how to get the desired effects step by step.The tool is released and placed at the feet of the people.Just as what occured with the raw data tables.

They were released but not instructions were given as to how to achieve certain desired effects in an official capacity.Same is said for the 40 stacks units.The tool that allowed such alteration was not released or recognised in an official capacity,therefore the only way CA could have informed people how to change the size of recruitable stacks is if it was allowable through the program as it was provided,not through a community created tool.(which is amazing by the way)In other words no developer can sit here and tell people how to hack their program,which modding essentially is,nor has any dev done so.

Also,as CA has said many times about the 20 stacks,they personally saw that as the optimal amount for the battles as they were intended to be presented and encouraged that this be the max capacity.I am rather sure their decision to begin going bigger,aside from perhaps a few internal things,has a lot to do with our outcry for such and the popularity of doing so since it has been discovered by the community.Obviously since the stack size was hard coded on previous games but now it isnt indicates they were considering this direction to be unveiled with FoTS.Therefore they would have no reason to undermine the official unveiling by telling people how to crack their code and do it anyway,it would be like instructing people on how to unlock currently locked dlc

[crunchyfrog]

But, but... What will we talk about in "General discussion" then?!

[Huberto]

How much presumption is loaded into that statement..? You know it would take five minutes because..? Stupid remark.

This was first achieved by Julle Cesar so all credit to him for finding out how to do it.

To have more than 20 units in a stack: open 'saved game' in EsfEditor, CAMPAIGN_ENV / CAMPAIGN_MODEL, you will find 2 numbers with 20, upper is land and lower is ship'.

Just enter the number you need (don't know whether there are any restrictions, didn't test it) instead of 20.

It DOES work in campaign, and the limit is probably more than 80 units from each side (I am currently playing with stacks of 40, but have not reached this number yet).

Still in testing in my current british SP campaign to see what the ai does, might need to lower the unit costs a bit but will keep you posted with updates on my progress.

The only downside like in historical battles is that you can't see the extra unit cards for 21+ units so you might want to make a note of what units you have in a stack

Who's stupid remark?

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Who's stupid remark?

The guy you quoted even acknowledges that his method has limitations. It's fine for him to do what he did but if CA did that the forum would be up in arms saying they gave the community a half-assed product.

Take off your rose tinted spectacles and actually think about the ramifications of CA releasing something to the public. The standards they are judged by are not the same as those for modders. When modders release a WIP they are applauded for their daring and innovation. When CA releases a final product that has flaws they get slaughtered for disrespecting its customers.

[Huberto]

In other words no developer can sit here and tell people how to hack their program,which modding essentially is,nor has any dev done so.

It's called documentation. CA did it last June. Developers do it all the time.

[Chevalier IX]

It's called documentation. CA did it last June. Developers do it all the time.

Devoid of specifics such as if you guys want to change a do b and c. Devs certainly support and enable at times but i am yet to see open instruction.i have seen devs correct erroneous assumptions about files they officially released in open format but that is not the same as offering instruction on the usage of community made tools. As i previously stated,had ca provided the means to unlock additional units per stack through included options,like they allowed for the editing of troop numbers without external tools, then perhaps they would have informed us how to do it.

[Allch Chcar]

FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!

Expel the Southern Barbarians! Support the Emperor!

Or whomever, that's too.

I really only buy DLC on steam sales. If there was a chance a boycott would give us mod tools, I would do it.

[Chevalier IX]

Did you sign up for FotS beta? (or any beta for that matter?) If you did, did you actually take the time to read the Non-disclosure agreement? I'm not criticizing you if you didn't most people don't, just like ToS. But if you actually sit and read an NDA, you'll realize there is a whole bunch you aren't allowed to do.

NDA's are legally binding. For people in the beta, you break it, the worst that can really happen is you get kicked out of the beta (unless you do something drastic, like reverse engineer the software. Then you're likely to find yourself in court). For most of us though, any violations of the NDA would hardly be worth notice because it's hard to prove that we did it, and it's also hard to monitor us all.

However, CA, as a company, has a list of all their employees who have access to information, such as the engine used, scripting lines, modelling software and all that other trash. If, for whatever reason, ANY of that is included in the NDA that Sega gets them to sign, and someone from staff still discusses it with us, it can cost them their jobs. They have a lot more at stake than us.

As far as why CA didn't explain how to mod in 40 units? If CA advises us to do something with the game, and we do it, and it breaks the game, we can hold CA legally liable. Discussing it may have been a subject of the NDA. The bandaid method (that is, the one used in NTW and I think ETW) didn't really work, you wouldn't get all the unit cards anyway. Perhaps they didn't know if the AI/engine could handle it. A whole myriad of possibilities as to why they didnt tell us. I'm betting on the NDA though. Those things are the devil.

Excellent points all around.unfortunately many here seem to feel that game development is an open forum free for all and dont understand legally binding contracts and the necessity of non disclosure,especially concerning the open release of untested elements and in game settings that exceed the gold standard limitations of the product

[Taraphir]

There is no need to call a truce between Creative Assembly and the Total War Center Community.
I´m at least are not at war with CA or people who do not share my position. In fact I like a controversial debate and different opinions. A open discussion is vitally important to encourage substantial advancements for the Total War Series. Exchange of views naturally excludes racism, swearing, insults and last but not least censorship wich has sadly at times been executed on CA´s forum. Just ask WearyOne who has been wrongfully banned from Creative Assembly´s official forum. Liberty of Speech at least is valued highly at Total War Center Forums. Sincerity is also important and applies to the community and CA in equal measures.

[Totalheadache]

All I can see on this forum are people who whine about people who make constructive criticism of CA and then are accused of being "haters". Tbh this apathy is quite sad.

I come from a more tech side on tw's as I am not 2 interested whether the game is completely historically accurate (although I did study History at uni) but certain omissions and for me a lack of game diversity smacks me of CA being more interested in money than releasing a full product. (they released shogun2 unifinished in my opinion).

With Rome there were a lot of factions and units and with medwar kingdoms. And empire and shogun2 after mods. For me it takes mods to reach the sweet spot of a total war i'll put 200hrs plus into.

No modding tools appears to me CA is scared that they will lose face or that the sales will be hurt. Or it's sheer stubborness that other people "might" be as creative if not more so. I think blame here lies witht he CEO, Mike Simpson.

On a technical side the engine is poorly optimised and sli/xfire still has issues. Laggy campaign map still not fixed (last time i checked). Melee/unit lag. Shadows causing a huge fps hit, volumetric effects not working? Recent blood causing stutters with ultra textures. There are more but i'll stop...

now thats not to say the whole gaming industry is perfect far from it...

The talk of 40 units stacks frankly worries me as I suspect the game will have issues even on powerfull rigs.

Now what is wrong with people voicing issues such as these? In fact I dont see any CA member in the tech section...they only seem to appear in the marketing part...

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

I didnt say voicing the issues was wrong. I said voicing them like an entitled ass was wrong.


We can NOT DEMAND ANYTHING FROM CA! We can ask for features, or ask for mod tools, or ask for whatever, but demanding that they hand something over is just rude.


I had hoped to at least keep this thread civil but it appears that some people are intent on acting like children who didnt get their toy. Perhaps if you people would stop looking at CA as some sort of evil beast that wants your money, and more like a COMPANY with PEOPLE working at it, then you would stop being such dicks.



But, alas. People hate to change, or forgive. Well, this thread wasnt really for them anyway. This thread was for the people who were ready, like I, to make a new start with CA, and promote kindness and peace on these forums.

[Totalheadache]

I didnt say voicing the issues was wrong. I said voicing them like an entitled ass was wrong.


We can NOT DEMAND ANYTHING FROM CA! We can ask for features, or ask for mod tools, or ask for whatever, but demanding that they hand something over is just rude.


I had hoped to at least keep this thread civil but it appears that some people are intent on acting like children who didnt get their toy. Perhaps if you people would stop looking at CA as some sort of evil beast that wants your money, and more like a COMPANY with PEOPLE working at it, then you would stop being such dicks.


But, alas. People hate to change, or forgive. Well, this thread wasnt really for them anyway. This thread was for the people who were ready, like I, to make a new start with CA, and promote kindness and peace on these forums.

do what you want and let others do what they want. simple.

people can complain all they want as long as it has some basis on fact. otherwise they are behaving badly.

but just because you get annoyed by people having a go at CA that's tough titty. If a mod chooses to reprimand someone or close a thread so be it.

moreover i see this thread as quite honestly pathetic and also flamebait.

referring to people as immature or "dicks" higlights this. i think it's the op who needs to grow up sorry..

if CA do things like break promises or release unfinished products or release piecemeal dls that some people think should be in the orig release they are within right to complain until something is done or they get a satisfactory answer. hence progress..after all we all want total wars to succeed.

and if eventually i have to stop buying their products so be it, there is life after tw...i personally own many other games which give me just as much fun.

[Lazarus]

Since CA/SEGA owns whatever they own and so they have to decide what they are willing to share and what they are not willing to share of that. Of course there are many, many developers who publish mod tools so why CA/SEGA would not be able to this makes no sense. There is nothing special about TW in this regard. It is obvious they do not create tools becasue they choose not to). As far as modding the game, breaking it and holding CA/SEGA responsible if that isn't explicitly covered in the EULA it would certainly not result in litigation or entitle anyone to damages. Since you and I and the Chevalier all know that mod support for TW is viable you are definitely grasping at straws.

I grasp at nothing. I think your argument is falling flat and you're moving the goal posts. You asked for examples of binding agreements and formalities that would prevent CA from telling us how to edit in 40 units - I just gave them to you.

Next point on the agenda. CA/Sega do not exist. It is Sega --> CA. They do not share ownership. They do not share anything. There is no back and forth between the two. Sega owns CA. They are majority shareholders in CA. If Sega says "Develop some DLC" they do it. If Sega says "You have 6 months to complete X task on this budget" they do it. CA can not say "Hang on, we're just taking the next 3 or so months off to develop mod tools and a tutorial (because you know we'll need one) to give to our loyal fans." That's 3 months that Sega does not recieve a return on their investment in CA. Why would Sega agree to that? That sounds like a bum deal from their point of view. I dont know how much more I can stress this. Sega is CA's Boss. Sega comes up with the NDA's and CA signs them (if they want to have work tomorrow). Sega comes up with the development plans, and CA agrees to it (if they want to have work tomorrow). Discussions on what to make/how to make it between Sega and CA could not be more one sided if Sega had a gun pointed at CA.

As far as CA not being liable for telling us how to break the game? Well, I'll give you an example. You go the department store asking for a drier for your clothes. The store clerk says "Drier? Pfft, no way man. You dont need one of those, you can just use the toaster I sold you last week." Being someone who is not in the know about driers and toasters, you take this mans advice as an expert, and dry your clothes in the toaster. Now, despite the fact that you signed a contract when buying that toaster, stating that any damage while using the product for a purpose other then it's intended sale is entirely your fault, you can hold that department store clerk legally liable for the damage done. There are laws against misrepresentation. If CA tells us to do something, and we do it (because we're taking their advice as experts in the field) and it breaks the game in any way, we are fully within our rights to take them to court for misrepresentation.

NOW. Moving the conversation back in to the mod support court. Any lack of mod support is entirely on Sega. They're the ones funneling money in to CA to develop things. If CA isn't getting the time and money to develop mod tools, it's because it's not coming from the magical Sega sack. CA cant just pull it out of thin air. Somewhere on this forum, I compared Sega and CA to a clan and their vassal. That's just how it works. CA isn't piling those profits in to their pockets. They're passing them up the chain (some of which will come back down - a wage).

Do mod tools not exist because someone isn't making them possible? Abso-freakin-lutely. Is it CA who is refusing to give them to us? I severely doubt it. You look further up the chain, you'll see the money grubbers who are eating your dollars. CA has time and time again shown that they are invested in our community (say, by popping in here every now and then, being enabling on subjects that are likely in their NDA, etc.) and I get the feeling they're really pushing to make the game moddable, after I took a little looksie around their website. Simply look at how the mod system used to work. It was wonderful. Then Sega showed up on the scene and CA slowly began feeling more distant from us. Why does everyone assume this is some giant coincidence?

[Lionheart11]

Yeah i wouldnt demand 40 units(that is a bit rude),its one of there selling points with Fots, maybe after release they can do it or give us some mod tools.

On the other side of the arguement ,yes "Apathy" is not good.

All i want is bayonets and as little cut and paste as possible, oh and for seiges to be more diverse and technical.

I dont like seeing us guys agrue like this when its clear we are all possionate about this game.

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

do what you want and let others do what they want. simple.

people can complain all they want as long as it has some basis on fact. otherwise they are behaving badly.

but just because you get annoyed by people having a go at CA that's tough titty. If a mod chooses to reprimand someone or close a thread so be it.

moreover i see this thread as quite honestly pathetic and also flamebait.

referring to people as immature or "dicks" higlights this. i think it's the op who needs to grow up sorry..

if CA do things like break promises or release unfinished products or release piecemeal dls that some people think should be in the orig release they are within right to complain until something is done or they get a satisfactory answer. hence progress..after all we all want total wars to succeed.

and if eventually i have to stop buying their products so be it, there is life after tw...i personally own many other games which give me just as much fun.

You are right. I aplogize for the name-calling. I got a little frustrated.


Also, I dont see how trying to get people to be nice is "Pathetic" in any way.

Do you guys really not understand the point Im trying to make? Im not flaming, Im really, actually asking you. Do you just not get it? Can you not see how you might be acting immature? Or arguing just to argue?

How about you look at it like this: You guys all know what everyone is complaining about. And yes, those are important things, dont get me wrong.


But besides those things, CA is doing everything RIGHT. Their games are by far the best games in the genre. Shogun 2 got the single-player campaign almost perfect in one try.

You guys are just focusing on the negative too much. That doesnt mean ignore the negative, no. But perhaps look at the positive as well. Like Lionheart said, we're all on the same side here. We're fans of Total War. We shouldnt fight.