Napoleonic era unit's strange and Organization

[kambiz]

Hi People ;
As the title of the thread suggests ,I need to know what was the number of troops in different units from Company level up to Corps and beyond for each major participants. As well as their Order of battles and Organization (Like the composition of a simple french infantry battalion) ?


MerC

[Condottiere 40K]

http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/French_infantry.html

[kambiz]

Thanks Condottiere 40K for the good link. I didn't read all of it line by line ,however I did read the "Organization of French Infantry" chapter and there it only explained unit's organization and number of men up to regiment level not higher :p I need to know for instance how many troops ,Cavalrymen and guns were in a french corps ? and was other nations (Like Prussia and GB) had similar number of men in their units ?

Thanks again

[Prince of Essling]

Thanks Condottiere 40K for the good link. I didn't read all of it line by line ,however I did read the "Organization of French Infantry" chapter and there it only explained unit's organization and number of men up to regiment level not higher :p I need to know for instance how many troops ,Cavalrymen and guns were in a french corps ? and was other nations (Like Prussia and GB) had similar number of men in their units ?

Thanks again

There was no standard organisation for a French Division or Corps. Napoleon liked to change organisation to meet particular tasks & to confuse enemy intelligence gathering

A Brigade could consist of 1 or more regiments, and a Division of a number of Brigades (usually a minimum of 2); similarly a Corps would consist of a number of Divisions, usually with a light cavalry division or brigade plus reserve artillery attached. Each division usually had at least 1 artillery company attached to it.

For example in 1805 III Corps (Davout) had 3 infantry divisions (28 battalions in total), 1 cavalry division (12 squadrons); whilst IV Corps (Soult) had 4 infantry divisions (40 battalions intotal) & 1 cavalry division (12 squadrons).

In 1807 III Corps had had 3 infantry divisions (26 battalions in total), 1 cavalry brigade (9 squadrons); whilst IV Corps had been reduced to 3 infantry divisions (26 battalions in total) & 1 cavalry brigade (9 squadrons).

In 1812 Davout commanded 5 infantry Divisions (88 battalions) & 1 light cavalry division (16 squadrons).

French organisation for 1815 was not typical of the rest of the Napoleonic Wars in that a Division consisted of 2 brigades each of 2 regiments....

[hellheaven1987]

I have always wondered about the traditional dressing 1RE of FFL has every year in the military parade during French national day, then I read this:

Sappers were picked men from grenadier (carabinier) company. They were equipped with axes. Sappers wore grenadier uniform with crossed axes and grenade badges on the sleeves. Their fur cap was without front plate. Beards were mandatory.

Now that explains why every year 1RE parade members have beard and carrying an axe.

[Prince of Essling]

Thanks Condottiere 40K for the good link. I didn't read all of it line by line ,however I did read the "Organization of French Infantry" chapter and there it only explained unit's organization and number of men up to regiment level not higher :p I need to know for instance how many troops ,Cavalrymen and guns were in a french corps ? and was other nations (Like Prussia and GB) had similar number of men in their units ?

Thanks again

Prussia

1806: There was no Corps structure. A typical Infantry Division (or Wing) comprised 2 (or 3) Brigades each of 2 regiments of 2 battalions each, plus their grenadier companies combined into a battalion, & 1 battery of artillery. Cavalry tended to be organised into brigades of 2 or 3 regiments with an artillery battery attached.

Reforms after Prussia's crushing defeat. Due to the reduced establishment of the army, divisions could not be formed. The Prussians formed mixed arms Brigades, these usually comprised 2 regiments of infantry (each of 2 musketeer battalions & 1 Fusilier battalion), 1 elite grenadier battalion, plus 10 to 14 squadrons. The expectation was that 2 Brigades would be grouped togther to form a Corps in times of war. Though in practice brigade strength tended to differ with the Brandenburg being over strength.

Wars of Liberation: From August 1813 Corps tended (this is not a strict rule as organisation did vary) to comprise 4 Brigades; each Brigade comprised 2 regular or reserve infantry regiments plus 1 Landwehr infantry regiment plus a cavalry unit attached & a foot battery; in addition each Corps had a cavalry reserve of 3 Brigades (of 2 to 3 regiments per brigade) plus a corps artillery reserve.

[Condottiere 40K]

There's that tension between bureaucratic efficiency (or just bloody mindedness) and field pragmatism - I think the Byzantines had the right idea about approximations to confuse the enemy.

[kambiz]

Nice information Prince of Essling , May you continue with GB ,Austria and Russia as well please? Anyway , I asked and made his thread because I wanted to be able to count the strength of X corps in X battle when I read about it. But According to what you said ,Looks like it is difficult to measure the manpower of a French Cops at any time and nearly impossible for other nations :p

MerC

[Prince of Essling]

Nice information Prince of Essling , May you continue with GB ,Austria and Russia as well please? Anyway , I asked and made his thread because I wanted to be able to count the strength of X corps in X battle when I read about it. But According to what you said ,Looks like it is difficult to measure the manpower of a French Cops at any time and nearly impossible for other nations :p

MerC

I will happily continue to add re the others.

If you are interested in any particular battle/campaign send me PM with your request and I will see what info I have available or be able to point you to look at

[Prince of Essling]

Britain

Organisation tended to fluctuate during this period. Due to the relative small size of the army, forces were assigned by the battalion, cavalry regiment, 'brigade' or troop of artillery, to form temporary brigades for specific enterprises/tasks.

It was not until 1809 that Wellington organised Divisions in the Peninsula. These Divisions went on to comprise 2 or more British Brigades & 1 Portuguese Brigade. British Brigades had 3 or more battalions and later a rifle company was attached. Cavalry was usually organised in Brigades of 2 or 3 regiments.

Corps officially came into being in 1815 of the Waterloo campaign when Wellington formed his army into 3 infantry and 1 cavalry corps. However during the Peninsula, Wellington did detach a few Divisions under Hill, Graham etc for specific purposes & you will find those formations called in history books "corps" though they were not formal Army Corps.

[Prince of Essling]

Austria

In 1805 infantry regiments tended (but not always.....) to be put into Brigades of 2 regiments; grenadier battalions tended to be grouped into brigades of 4 battalions, 2 or more cavalry regiments would be grouped together to form a brigade. 2 or more Brigades would be grouped into a Division. A number of Divisions would be grouped together to form a "Corps" or Wing but this should not be equated with an Army Corps.

1809 saw the formal introduction of the Armeekorps . At the start of the campaign these tended to be of 3 Divisions, each of 2 Brigades (though there were exceptions) - Brigade organisation varied enormously. By Aspern-Essling they tended to be of 2 Divisions of 2 or 3 Brigades; by Wagram 2 or 3 Divisions with 1 or more Brigades each. The organisation of the Reservekorps was different....

1813 the Corps system was reinstituted in September though the term Corps was not used, instead the term "Armee Abtheilungen" though it was not long before the term Corps was used in official reports...... The Army of Bohemia had 2 later 3 light divisions each of 2 brigades which formed the Advance Guard; 4 corps (normally of 2 line divisions & 1 light division; though 1 corps had just 2 line divisions) - the light division comprised 1 briagde of 2 line infantry regiments plus 1 briagde of Grenzer of Jager battalions and some light cavalry; the line division had 2 brigades each of 2 infantry regiments. Each brigade had its own artillery battery; corps reserve artillery comprised 6pdr horse battery & 2 x 12pdr foot batteries. The Grenadiers & Cuirassiers were gathered into the "Armee Abtheilungen Reserve".

[Alcibiades429]

Hi People ;
As the title of the thread suggests ,I need to know what was the number of troops in different units from Company level up to Corps and beyond for each major participants. As well as their Order of battles and Organization (Like the composition of a simple french infantry battalion) ?


MerC

1796

Company was 120

batalon: 900

demibrigade: 2700

bigade: 5400

inf division: 5400-10000

Division:16000

Army:34000

[Prince of Essling]

I will back post later into the current entries for France, Prussia, Britain & Austria with some illustrative orders of battle for information; and also produce an entry on Russia again with some illustrative orders of battle.

[Fingy]

I have heard that the best book on the Grand Armee is John R. Elting's "Swords around a Throne". Maybe you should check it out. Has anyone read it?

http://www.amazon.ca/Swords-around-T...8902893&sr=1-1

[Prince of Essling]

I have heard that the best book on the Grand Armee is John R. Elting's "Swords around a Throne". Maybe you should check it out. Has anyone read it?

http://www.amazon.ca/Swords-around-T...8902893&sr=1-1

Yes it is one of the books I do recommend as essential reading on the French army. But it doesn't cover in any detail what kambiz is after. You do also need to try and get hold of an errata sheet (as some of the facts in the book are not quite correct). There used to be one on his website (I had a copy but can no longer find it ) - unfortunately the website disappeared following his death.

Edit:
Errata listing from Napoleon Series website Forum:

The following was posted by George Nafziger in the predecessor to this forum 02 May 1999.
*********************
In a recent letter from Colonel John Elting I received a copy of an errata for Swords Around The Throne. He asked that I give it the widest possible distribution, so I have decided to transcribe it on the forum. What better way, eh?
Any spelling or other errors are mine, not his.
George
In a book such as this, packed with details, I have found that in spite of repeated ditings, I may end up with seeing what should be there, rather than what is actually is. Finding such errors after your book is printed is rather like going to your bureau for a clean shirt - and opening the drawer on a coiled rattlesnake.
As, Swords was published in 1988. we have learned a lot about the Grand Armee since then. This, therefore, is an attempt to bring Swords up to date.
Page 94 - regarding guide unit activated in 1806 for service in Germany (line 7). History is incomplete/incorrect.
"In October 1805, offering generous pay and allowances, Napoleon ordered the formation of two squadrons of retired officers and noncommissioned officers to serve as interprters and messengers. Unable to secure enough qualified volunteers, he ordered each dragoon regiment to provide two qualified soldiers with at least eight years of service. This organisation was disbanded 30 June 1807, the ex-dragoons being assigned to Berthier's guides."
Uniforms, Volume I, Command & Staff, Plate 29.
Page 150 - line 16. "1796" should be "1794". Napoleon was assigned as chief of artillery to the Army of Italy that year, serving also as the commander's brains and meeting Massena and Serurier.
Page 196 - 3rd paragragh. Two more Young Guard companies were added in 1814 to the Guard Genie.
Page 197 - 4th paragraph. It has now been definitely established that the flanquers-chasseurs were formed in 1811, the flanquers-grenadiers in 1813.
Page 253 - line 15 from bottom. The veteran cannoneers also had red turnbacks.
Page 370 - line 13. Official date for the formation of the Chasseurs d'Orient was 1802.
Page 371 - line 13. "1800" should be "1802".
Page 411 - line 14. "1800-February 1801" should be "1790-February 1791".
Page 450 - lines 9-10. The diamond plate shako plate had been introduced in 1810, but was not universally adopted. The 1812 plate was an "eagle on a crescent." Both were worn in 1813, and probably in 1814.
Page 660 - line 18 from the bottom. "soldiers" should be "artillerymen". Barbanegne's total garrison was approximately 3,500 almost all reluctant national guards.
Page 724 - XXVI. Strategy & Tactics - Note 7, line 2. "feet" should be "yards".

[Prince of Essling]

Russia

1805 - Russian army structure was a real mess as several regiments would be assigned to Brigades which functioned as ad hoc commands. The composition of Brigades was forever changing, patrticularly at times of a battle! Two or more brigades would be combined to form a column, which was also an ad hoc formation. A column's composition would also be changed as the make up of the brigades that made up a column! Brigades would also comprise a mix of troop types (infantry & cavalry).

Following the disastrous Austerlitz campaign, the Russians formed permanent Divisions. At the start of the 1806/07 campaign a Division comprised roughly 6 or 7 infantry regiments, 10 light cavalry squadrons, 10 cuirassier or dragoon squadrons, cossacks & 82 guns.

For 1812 the Russians moved to a Corps structure. Each Corps contained 2 Divisions of 3 Brigades of 2 infantry regiments (1 Brigade in a Division would consist of Jagers); attached to each Division was usually a 12pdr position battery & 2 Light batteries; also attached to the Corps was a regiment or Brigade of cavalry. There were also seperate Cavalry Corps & separate Guards Corps.

[kambiz]

This is just Awesome Prince
I'm gonna bookmark this thread as an important reference for later use Actually I've begun to read Osprey's Napoleonic Wars series and these informations would be useful for better understanding of situation.
Dear Prince , as I'm reading these books ,Is there any source of [kind of] interactive maps to show how the battles and manouvers are done?

Thanks again Prince of Essling

P.S : May I ask one private question ? that is ,Are you french yourself?

[Prince of Essling]

This is just Awesome Prince
I'm gonna bookmark this thread as an important reference for later use Actually I've begun to read Osprey's Napoleonic Wars series and these informations would be useful for better understanding of situation.
Dear Prince , as I'm reading these books ,Is there any source of [kind of] interactive maps to show how the battles and manouvers are done?

Thanks again Prince of Essling

P.S : May I ask one private question ? that is ,Are you french yourself?

Gad I could help. For info the OoBs were extracted from the Nafziger depository which was put into the public domain a while ago.

If you go to the stickied "Useful websites" at http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=384319&page=5 you will find a section entiltled "Maps" listing where you can find maps (the maps are not interactive though).

In the downloable books section you will find: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=128566 which has links to downloadable drill manuals (again not interactive).

The French would call me a 'ros boeuf"!

I got into the Napoleonic period many years ago when I went along to a demonstration wargame involving about 2 Divisions aside supported by a cavalry brigade each & a couple of batteries. The figures were the most beautifully painted 20mm Hinton Hunt figures (about 1,000 aside). Most unusually for that time it was French versus Austrian. I was totally smitten and as they say the rest is history!

[kambiz]

Thanks Prince ;

The "Useful websites" thread that is your creation is indeed useful However ,The maps were all a little hard to read and are actually for experts ,not an amateur like Me I'm looking for a kind of interactive map(s) which can show details of battles and how they developed ! But still these links might be helpful for Me in future !

The French would call me a 'ros boeuf"!

I got into the Napoleonic period many years ago when I went along to a demonstration wargame involving about 2 Divisions aside supported by a cavalry brigade each & a couple of batteries. The figures were the most beautifully painted 20mm Hinton Hunt figures (about 1,000 aside). Most unusually for that time it was French versus Austrian. I was totally smitten and as they say the rest is history!

For Me it was all about video games ! The first time that I attracted to Revolutionary - Napoleonic era was by Empire Earth game ! (The last 2 missions in English campaign) and later by the novel Désirée written by Annemarie Selinko that interestingly (and completely by chance) read a few months before Napoleon Total war release. You see how world is strange and how life is unpredictable