I L L Y R I A - ' L a n d o f t h e L y r a '
Illyrians and their history is in fact history of today's people of Dinaric region (Western Balkans) who are not of Slavic origin but of Illyrian.
Dinaric region contains continental Dalmatia, Dalmatian Zagora, Konavle, Lika, Kordun, Banija, Hercegovina, Bosnia, Montenegro, Rascia or Sandjak, Sumadija, Morava region,
North Albania, Kosovo and today's Rep. Macedonia. In short Dinaric region is in almost the same location as the ancient Roman province of Dalmatia which was one of the two provinces of Illyricum while the other province was Panonia in the location of today's Slavonia, Zagorje, Vojvodina and half of Hungary (west of River Danube) . Province of Dalmatia covered area south of river Sava and Kupa, west of Great Morava then the border went trough Kosovo and south to river Drim in North Albania and the center was Scodra or today's Skadar.
Illyrians were a conglomeration of nations and they can be devided in several groups such as southern (hellenistic), northern (istria, under italic influences) and central/nortern (such as Dalmatians, Iapodes and Pannonians). As fas as culture and civilization goes southern group was vastly ahead of the other two and especially ahead of central/northern one (which was not lucky to border Greece or Italy).
Hellenic Dorians settled Illyria since before 2000 BC. Illyrians spoke Hellenic and after the coming of Romans Latin language become dominant in the western and coastal parts of Illyria. Connection between Dorians and south Illyrians can be drawn by the fact that the first recorded ruler of Illyrians was called Hyllus whom in the Hellenic mythology was also son of Heraklidis (Hercules) whom Dorians considered as their ancestor hense their term 'return of Heraklidis' for their invasion of Greece.
Montenegro is the purest Illyrian racial zone while the purest Dorian racial zone is the tribe Sfakia which lives in the southwest part of the island Crete and are the descendants of Dorian invasion of Greece from around 1000 BC which came from the direction of Macedonia and Illyria. In the book 'The races of Europe' ( written 1939 ) the great racial anthropologist Charleston Stevens Coon clearly compared Montenegrins to Sfakia. Montenegrins in their speech have thousands of Hellenic words which are mainly connected to village and house. Even the name for the national Montenegrin dance 'oro' comes from Hellenic 'horo' which means 'dance'.
Big number of the more important toponym's are of nonslavic origin (Hellenic or Latin origin).
It is worth mentioning that Latin speaking Illyrians spoke their own Dalmatian dialect.
All the mentioned Dinaric regions are culturally and racially more similar to Montenegrins than to Vojvodina, Zagorje, Slavonija or Central Albania.
Racial anthropology classifies people of the Dinaric region to be of Dinaric racial group which is a subgroup of Mediterranean race. The real Slavs are classified as so called "Neodanubian" which is dominant in Ukraine, White Russia, Poland, West Russia and it exists in Panonia and Slovenia or north part of former S.F.R. Yugoslavia (although in our region it is in dinarized form). Neodanubian group is a stabilized blend of Nordic Danubian group and semi-oriental Lagodan (hense the name 'neodanubian' ). Dinaric group was created as a stavlized blend between Mediterraneans and Alpines (2/3 first group). According to the already mentioned info it is obvious that Dinarics and Neodanubians are not even members of a same race and thus it easily eliminates the theory that Dinarics are Slavs. It also tells us as that the real Slavs colonized only Panonia and Slovenia and even there are not dominant but rather mixed and hense the names Slavonija or Slovenija.
Racial Distribution
In the same part of former Yu. that we find Nedanubians (5%) we also find another Mediterranean subgroup called "Noric" (10%) and which can be classified as lighter version of Dinarics. The name Noric is derived from the name of the ancient Roman province of Noricum (in today's Austria) while Norics are in effect depegmented Dinarics.
Dinaric type represents around 75% of the population of former Yu. which is the same percentage as Albania. Among us Dinarics and Noric together compose 85% of the population. On the Adriatic coast the dominant type is the so called "Western Mediterranean" type which also has no relation with Slavs either. This racial type represents around 10% of the total population of Yugoslavia and its a second most numerous with Norics (10%) and ahead of Novodunabians or simply SLAVS (5%) .
It is interesting to mention that the Neodanubian type is more evident in Hungary (35%) and even Romania (20%) than it is in former Yugoslavia. The same type represents only 20% of Czechoslovakia where Dinarics are 25% and primarily in Moravia (where it arived with colonists such as Transylvanian Romanians during the time of Austro-Hungary).
Dinaric type in different countries means different origin (according to racial anthropology and history the conclusion is that Illyrians, Venets from N. Italy, and at least partially Dorians, Macedonians and Phrygians were all of Dinaric race and thus related to each other) . Venets from North Italy (who are of Illyrian origin) and Venets or Wends from Eastern Europe (Baltic race) are not of the same origin since they are not of the same race (they neither have same culture nor language) and outside of the name have no similarity (also the names appear at the different time frames ). Name is of Latin origin (Venetus -Blue in Latin ).
-In Hungary, Moravia, SFR Yu. and Albania: Illyrian
-Romania: Illyrians in Roman legions
-Bulgaria: Illyrians in Roman legions
-Ukraine: Impact from Romania
-Greece: Dorian, Macedonian
-Italy: mainly Venets or Veneti (NOT
to confuse with Wends)
D o r i a n s
Dorian Greeks settled in Illyria before 2000BC and the center of Dorians were Epirus and Macedonia. Ancient writer Strabo states that culture, religion, tunics, language of southern Illyrians (and Vrygians) is very similar to Epirotes and Macedonians thus making Southern Illyrians of clearly Hellenistic nature.
Dorians called themselves "Makednos" what in ancient Hellenic meant 'tall, warlike highlander ' and Macedonia was named after them. Other Hellenic nations were Micenians, Ionians, Aeolians, Acheans,etc. Dorians were very tall and very warlike. Ancient pictures of Dorian Spartans contained in them warriors with dark hair with reddish tone. Also they had tribal order, blood feuds, and possessed 'lyra' .
(it is possible that the region Illyria was named after lyra and first time the name Illyria was mentioned was in 4 - th century BC). According to Hellenic mythology name Illyrians is derived from the son of Cadmus and Harmonia - Illyrius. The ruler of Dorians represented both a spiritual leader and a military leader. According to the legend Dorians got their name from one of the Helen's sons called Dorus. Some of the Dorians attacked South Greece from the direction of Macedonia, south Illyria and Epirus in 12 and 11 cen.BC . They took islands of Crete, Dodecanese and other Aegean islands also Lakonia, Argolis, and Korintos in the Peloponesos peninsula. Famous Sparta was a Doric settlement.
In the ancient Hellenic legend the Dorian invasion of Peloponesus happened around 1104 BC although now it is accepted by most historians that it accured rather in 12, 11cen. BC or even earlier. In the ancient legend the Dorian invasion was called 'return of Hercules' since according to the legend Dorians were looked at as descendants of Hercules (or Heraklidis as pronounced in Hellenic ).
I l l y r i a n s
Soutn Illyrians (original Illyrians, Ardideans, belong to southern Illyrians) are descendants of earlier Dorians and first time are mentioned in recorded history in 4 cen.BC. Modern history informs us that the earliest Illyrian ruler was called Hylus who lived around 12 cen.BC . His name is identical with the name of one of the major three Dorian tribes which invaded south Greece from the direction of Macedonia and Illyria in the same time frame (12,11cen.BC). Ancient Macedonians considered Illyrians and Thracians as their close kin.
Roman sources from 2-nd cen.BC ( time of Illyrian-Roman wars ) call Queen Teuta's Illyria ( pronounced 'Tefta' and it is a old Hellenic name) a halfhellenic country because although Illyrians spoke Hellenic since their culture was a lot less advanced than that of Athens. In ancient times Hellenism represented not only speaking Hellenic language but advanced culture what was the primary reason prealexandian Macedonia was called barbarian by Athens although the language of ancient Macedonians was Hellenic.
Even the real name of the Roman emperor called Diokletian (born in Dalmatia) was Diokles (a pure Hellenic name) . Byzantine sources tell us that the only two languages spoken in Illyria were Latin (seashore and western part) and Hellenic (Eastern Illyria) while there is no mention of any separate Illyrian language.
In earlier Hellenic sources there is never a mention of a separate Illyrian language nor is there any historical remains of any such language that would lead us to conclude that Illyrian existed as a separate linguistic entity.
S l a v s
For me to be able to discredit the idea that Dinaric region people are of Slavic origin I have to state who the original Slavs were. Original Slavs were of Baltic origin and lived in the region of today's Ukraine since before 1000 BC.
As of few centuries BC until 3-4 cen. AD these Balts were controlled and enslaved by Sarmatian and Skitians (both nations were related to original Persians and Aryans and all of them spoke northern iranian language) . All of mentioned nations were originally from the region between Ukraine and Caucasus.
Original Slavic language (Baltic ) was infused with a strong Sanskrit influence by 4 cen. AD and with this it acquired its 'Slavic' form while the majority of people still remained of Baltic race. Sanskrit carrier into Slavic arrived via Baltic language that was Aryianized by Mediternian Aryans.
The very name Slav came from Hellenic word Sklavus (Slave) and Latin word Slavus (Slave). Slavs were traded as slaves in Crimea by Sarmatians, Scythians, Hazars, Goths, etc. and the buyers were Persians, Arabs, Latins and Byzantines and in their sources Slavs were described as racially identical with Germanics (logical since Baltic Lithuanians look Germanic ) .
Also the strongest two elements in Slavic are Baltic and Sanskrit.
The words Serb (Serboi) and Croat (Horuvatos) are of Sarmatian (Proto-Iranian) origin and represented Sarmatian tribes (Serboi were originally one of the tribes of Sarmatic Alans) which ruled over Baltic Slavs and by doing so have transferred their name upon them while the ruling class have remained to be Sarmatian.
Situation in preslavic Illyria
Even before the coming of Slavs Illyria was run down by Goths, Gepids, Huns, Avars, etc. and it represented a easy prey for Slavs warriors who although were less numerous than Illyrian population nevertheless were warriors while Illyria was weakened and under a Barbarian sword.
Slavic formations counted around 100,000 total when they entered Balkans (the biggest Barbarian formation were certainly Goths who numbered 200,000 - 300,000 when they entered Balkans and were front-runners to other Barbarians and the strongest Barbarian element which represents number one reason why western Roman empire collapsed ).
Widely accepted number for the Roman empire is around 60 million people (half of in the eastern part of the empire ).
Byzantine Balkan part had 3-4 million people (Constantinople alone between 0.5m.-1.0 m. ) . Regions which are equivalent to today's Greece had around 1 million thus leaving between 1.5 to 2 million in Illyria (~ 0.7m. ) , Makedonia (~ 0.5m. ) , and Trakia (~ 0.6m). Since Slavs, all together, numbered around 100.000 people it is logical to conclude that the reason they didn't leave a racial mark on Balkans is do to the fact that they were much less numerous comparing to the preslavic nations. According to racial anthropology is is easily noticed that the Slavic racial element (called Neodanubian element) is only present in Panonia and Slovenia which also explains names such as Slovenia and Slavonia. Panonia is a plain and as such was more harder to defend comparing to mountain regions such as Illyria (ancient province of Dalmatia ), Makedonia and Trakia which also had a lot more people living in them comparing to Panonia which was under frequent Barbarian attacks from nations that either lived in that vicinity or were passing trough. Illyrians were forcefully slavonized (also Macedonia and Trakia ). Areas like Montenegro, Macedonia and Bulgaria have a strong Hellenic linquistic even bigger cultural impact.
C o n c l u s i o n
The biggest proof that Dorians, Illyrians and Dinaric people are one unit is in comparing the Dorian tribe Sfakia in SW Crete with Montenegrins, who are in so many ways are similar (stature, appearance, national custome, warlikeness, tribal order, vendettas ) . The racial relation between Montenegrins and Sfakia was also mentioned in a book called 'Races of Europe' written by Coon in 1939 where he also writes about the racial connection between Slavs, Balts, and Germanics.
illyrian tribes, request of Apostate
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Originally Posted by Lusted
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