[Preview] The Kievan Rus'

[KingMehmet]

Great models. Cong.

[NikeBG]

Peter tried to replace the legitimate Patriarchee of Kiev and the ONLY real Patriarch (Kiev) of all Russians with the archbishop of a small vilage known as Moscow. That was an ilegal action but it was not the only one.

Sorry for the late reply, first. But I think Moscow rose to power, both in political and church terms, quite before Peter the Great. If I'm not mistaken, Moscow became the main seat of the all-Russian metropolitans in the time of metropolitan Kiprian, after the miracle with the Theotokos' icon from Vladimir, which chased away the forces of Tamerlane. Of course, I'm not too familiar with that area and period of history, so I might be wrong on that one - maybe it was earlier or it was short-lived and became permanent later on.

Only one piont - in russian chronicles rulers of russia called "knyaz" (Anthonius you wrote a lot, but its just from other themes, i didnt discuss about norman theory of becoming russian state etc) not khagane, and state its "knyazhestvo" not khaganate, why in mod its named like this??? can anybody named me one of rus khagane? Oleg or Ingvarr? They are "knayz" ore may be Askold and Dir))) or Svyatoslav??? its impossible!

As much as i know in rus medieval chronicals the old rus lords are great princes (knqze) and Kievun Rus was kniajesvto(княжество)princedom .The Khaganate is only a theory and not secure at all .

In the original of the "Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers", the early Pagan Bulgar rulers are also actually called "knyaze". That doesn't necessarily mean they really were so though (because, if they were, it would either claim that Attila was a Slav or that "knyaz" is actually not a Slavic, but a Hunnic or Bulgar title - I think our Russian comrades wouldn't agree with both these theses) - all those sources you and we are speaking about here, are written quite after the events they portray. Just as today in Bulgaria we're speaking about "Thracian tsars" (or eventually "krals") etc, just because that's the word(s) we use today - it doesn't mean the Thracian rulers called themselves "tsar" or "kral" - that's just how we call them today, in retrospect. On the other hand, the primary sources which deal with the Rus' Khaganate seem to be closer in time. As for the argument that they're close only in time, but not in geography - I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure there were *no* chronicles in the Russian lands in that time. As far as I remember, one of the earliest Russian chronicles was Povest vremeni let, which is from centuries after TGC's starting date. I.e. we don't really have an alternative (which isn't something new for for you, Bagatyr, since we, as Bulgarians, are also used to write our history based mostly on foreign sources).
Of course, as already mentioned, those lands (among others) were multi-ethnic in those times and respectively various titles and words have been used for them, by various peoples in various times. And there's also the natural evolution of the state - f.e. just as Bulgaria in the start of the mod is a knyazhestvo and a few decades later evolves to a tsarstvo. So, when thinking about the Rus Khaganate, we should always keep in mind that this is a temporary situation around the mod's starting date.

But explain to me please, after what you was guided when you give the name of units? You use russian words that have a some significance like "Latniki" (Латники), "Velmozhe" (Вельможи), but when I look at the pictures I don't see for example warriors "Latniki". "Latniki" comes from "Laty", which means in translation plate armor.

like unit name "Latniki" (they don't look like latniki, because latnik is a warrior with the armor plate, not chain mail)

Are you fully sure about that? Because in South-Slavic, f.e., we have the so-called "Oklopniki", which basically means the same and which many people believe to mean "plate-armoured soldiers", which is only partially correct - the "oklopniki" were plate-armoured only after the appearance of plate armour (obviously) and before that they were armoured with other armous (scale/lamellar/chain). I'm not saying this is the case with the "Latniki", but it is a possibility.

Well, there are problems with that. Bulgarian and Russian are both Slavic in origin but they're two different dialects, especially Old Russian.

I've said it before - modern Russian is probably the closest language to Old-Bulgarian. I'd say it's even closer to it than modern Bulgarian is (and, respectively, I'd say that modern Russian is the closest to modern Bulgarian, maybe only after or equal to Serbian). In any case, in my Bulgarian research for Europe1200, I've used mostly Old- and Middle-Bulgarian words, which are to some degree usable for the Russians as well. Of course, that's not so in all cases - f.e. there are some ranks or words which are specifically Russian or ones which are similar to the Bulgarian ones, but with slightly different spelling (we'd obviously need actual Russians to help us with that). In the dev forum I had also posted some notes which I had noted from my researches, like f.e. that the word "luk" ("bow") first appeared around the late 11th century, IIRC, and before that the word "rozhanets" was used (i.e. "luchniki", as "archers", would be fine for a mod set in the 12th century, but not so accurate for TGC).

[Heathen Storm]

Even on the site that you're according look "Lati kopeishchika" then see illustration how look laty/lati
Here http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...r/newsarms.htm
And here http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...or/pikeman.htm
Units from the preview whom you called "Latniki" have "Kolchuga" (http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...mor/russ29.htm), not "lati".
So they can't be called "Latniki".

Units from the preview whom you called "Latniki" have "Kolchuga" (http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...mor/russ29.htm), not "lati".
So they can't be called "Latniki".

To Moderators
Please delete this post, i just forgot use "Edit". Sorry.
--EDITED AS PER REQUEST--

I'm sorry mate but I still have not seen anything showing latniki as meaning anything but "those who are armored". You're correct that "kolchuga" means mail - so does bronya. But my source says that latniki was a description, rather than the name of an object. I looked at Lati kopeishchika and the only thing I saw from that was it was a much later term for western mercenaries. I'm not sure what you were trying to point out...

Sorry for the late reply, first. But I think Moscow rose to power, both in political and church terms, quite before Peter the Great. If I'm not mistaken, Moscow became the main seat of the all-Russian metropolitans in the time of metropolitan Kiprian, after the miracle with the Theotokos' icon from Vladimir, which chased away the forces of Tamerlane. Of course, I'm not too familiar with that area and period of history, so I might be wrong on that one - maybe it was earlier or it was short-lived and became permanent later on.



In the original of the "Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers", the early Pagan Bulgar rulers are also actually called "knyaze". That doesn't necessarily mean they really were so though (because, if they were, it would either claim that Attila was a Slav or that "knyaz" is actually not a Slavic, but a Hunnic or Bulgar title - I think our Russian comrades wouldn't agree with both these theses) - all those sources you and we are speaking about here, are written quite after the events they portray. Just as today in Bulgaria we're speaking about "Thracian tsars" (or eventually "krals") etc, just because that's the word(s) we use today - it doesn't mean the Thracian rulers called themselves "tsar" or "kral" - that's just how we call them today, in retrospect. On the other hand, the primary sources which deal with the Rus' Khaganate seem to be closer in time. As for the argument that they're close only in time, but not in geography - I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure there were *no* chronicles in the Russian lands in that time. As far as I remember, one of the earliest Russian chronicles was Povest vremeni let, which is from centuries after TGC's starting date. I.e. we don't really have an alternative (which isn't something new for for you, Bagatyr, since we, as Bulgarians, are also used to write our history based mostly on foreign sources).
Of course, as already mentioned, those lands (among others) were multi-ethnic in those times and respectively various titles and words have been used for them, by various peoples in various times. And there's also the natural evolution of the state - f.e. just as Bulgaria in the start of the mod is a knyazhestvo and a few decades later evolves to a tsarstvo. So, when thinking about the Rus Khaganate, we should always keep in mind that this is a temporary situation around the mod's starting date.




Are you fully sure about that? Because in South-Slavic, f.e., we have the so-called "Oklopniki", which basically means the same and which many people believe to mean "plate-armoured soldiers", which is only partially correct - the "oklopniki" were plate-armoured only after the appearance of plate armour (obviously) and before that they were armoured with other armous (scale/lamellar/chain). I'm not saying this is the case with the "Latniki", but it is a possibility.


I've said it before - modern Russian is probably the closest language to Old-Bulgarian. I'd say it's even closer to it than modern Bulgarian is (and, respectively, I'd say that modern Russian is the closest to modern Bulgarian, maybe only after or equal to Serbian). In any case, in my Bulgarian research for Europe1200, I've used mostly Old- and Middle-Bulgarian words, which are to some degree usable for the Russians as well. Of course, that's not so in all cases - f.e. there are some ranks or words which are specifically Russian or ones which are similar to the Bulgarian ones, but with slightly different spelling (we'd obviously need actual Russians to help us with that). In the dev forum I had also posted some notes which I had noted from my researches, like f.e. that the word "luk" ("bow") first appeared around the late 11th century, IIRC, and before that the word "rozhanets" was used (i.e. "luchniki", as "archers", would be fine for a mod set in the 12th century, but not so accurate for TGC).

I agree wholeheartedly, Nike. I know I can always rely on you for a great historical perspective

About the Russian to Bulgarian; Russian spear is kop'ya - is it close to Bulgarian?

[Bagatyr]

About the Russian to Bulgarian; Russian spear is kop'ya - is it close to Bulgarian?

yes the same .

In the original of the "Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers", the early Pagan Bulgar rulers are also actually called "knyaze". That doesn't necessarily mean they really were so though (because, if they were, it would either claim that Attila was a Slav or that "knyaz" is actually not a Slavic, but a Hunnic or Bulgar title - I think our Russian comrades wouldn't agree with both these theses) - all those sources you and we are speaking about here, are written quite after the events they portray. Just as today in Bulgaria we're speaking about "Thracian tsars" (or eventually "krals") etc, just because that's the word(s) we use today - it doesn't mean the Thracian rulers called themselves "tsar" or "kral" - that's just how we call them today, in retrospect. On the other hand, the primary sources which deal with the Rus' Khaganate seem to be closer in time. As for the argument that they're close only in time, but not in geography - I'm sorry, but I'm pretty sure there were *no* chronicles in the Russian lands in that time. As far as I remember, one of the earliest Russian chronicles was Povest vremeni let, which is from centuries after TGC's starting date. I.e. we don't really have an alternative (which isn't something new for for you, Bagatyr, since we, as Bulgarians, are also used to write our history based mostly on foreign sources).
Of course, as already mentioned, those lands (among others) were multi-ethnic in those times and respectively various titles and words have been used for them, by various peoples in various times. And there's also the natural evolution of the state - f.e. just as Bulgaria in the start of the mod is a knyazhestvo and a few decades later evolves to a tsarstvo. So, when thinking about the Rus Khaganate, we should always keep in mind that this is a temporary situation around the mod's starting date.

Agree .As i say early i am not well informed about the history of Rus from the period .I only give them advice because i saw that native russians have protests .If the history resurch points that Rus was Khaganate at some period then obviously it was so .

[Aguirre]

perfection!

[kostic]

Very nice ! I hope this mod come soon...

[alien_t]

About the Russian to Bulgarian; Russian spear is kop'ya - is it close to Bulgarian?

yes the same .

It's similar, kop'ya is plural(spears), while kop'ye = spear

[Silesian_Noble]

It's similar, kop'ya is plural(spears), while kop'ye = spear

Intersting thing but in Polish spear is włócznia while kopia (sounds the same like kop'ya) means lance. In old Polish another word for lance was drzewo (literally: tree). And in XV-XVIIc there was professional unit called piesi kopijnicy (literally foot lancers) which were armed in long spear/pike.

[torzsoktamas]

In ungarian kopja also is a lance or spear.

[AnthoniusII]

It's similar, kop'ya is plural(spears), while kop'ye = spear

Intersting thing but in Polish spear is włócznia while kopia (sounds the same like kop'ya) means lance. In old Polish another word for lance was drzewo (literally: tree). And in XV-XVIIc there was professional unit called piesi kopijnicy (literally foot lancers) which were armed in long spear/pike.

In ungarian kopja also is a lance or spear.

That proves the wide Slavic influence in those extended lands.
Rus (even as pure vikings) would not be able to "brake" that rule espesialy when their subjects majority belonged to that ethnic group,

[Bagatyr]

Intersting thing but in Polish spear is włócznia while kopia (sounds the same like kop'ya) means lance. In old Polish another word for lance was drzewo (literally: tree). And in XV-XVIIc there was professional unit called piesi kopijnicy (literally foot lancers) which were armed in long spear/pike.

We use kopye both for lance and spear mostly .

[Alejandro Sanchez]

About the Russian to Bulgarian; Russian spear is kop'ya - is it close to Bulgarian?

As guys said spear in Russian - копьё (kop'yo) and plural копья (kop'ya). In Old Russian spear - копье (kop'ye) and plural копьи (kop'yi).

[Heathen Storm]

As guys said spear in Russian - копьё (kop'yo) and plural копья (kop'ya). In Old Russian spear - копье (kop'ye) and plural копьи (kop'yi).

So what would "spearmen" be in Old Russian?

[Alejandro Sanchez]

So what would "spearmen" be in Old Russian?

For example:
warrior with spear - воин с копьем - voin s kop'em, plural вои с копьи - voi s kop'yi
or
footman with spear - пешец с копьем - peshets (-tz) s kop'em, plural пешьци с копьи - pesh'tsi (-tzi) s kop'yi

It's possible that there are other words. To do this I need to see the chronicles.

[Heathen Storm]

For example:
warrior with spear - воин с копьем - voin s kop'em, plural вои с копьи - voi s kop'yi
or
footman with spear - пешец с копьем - peshets s kop'em, plural пешьци с копьи - pesh'tsi s kop'yi

It's possible that there are other words. To do this I need to see the chronicles.

Sounds good, if you can find something else let me know

[Alejandro Sanchez]

Sounds good, if you can find something else let me know

Ok. If U need any other words or terms in Old Russian, write me. When I read the chronicles I can meet these words also.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

So they can't be called "Latniki".

I'm not saying this is the case with the "Latniki", but it is a possibility.

Found in Old Russian translation of "The Jewish War" by Flavius Josephus from XII c. word бронистьци - (bronist'tsi).

Quote in Old Russian:
"И абие Еуспасианъ погна от Птоломаиды и на Галилѣю, и повелѣ воемъ ходити яко обычай есть римляномъ: стрѣлцемъ и легкооружником напереде, да блюдуть внезапнаго приезда противныхъ и испытають, егда когда будуть съкрыти вои по лѣсомъ; и по них ити бронистьцемь, едина чясть конникъ, а другаа пешець; и по нихъ путедѣлци, идеже тѣсно и люто, сѣкуще и равнающе, да не трудятся лютымъ путемъ; и по нихъ игемонъ товаръ и воеводстий и конници на съблюдение его; и потомъ съ избранными сам конникы и пешци..."

Quote in Russian:
"Веспасиан же сразу двинулся от Птолемаиды на Галилею и приказал воинам выступать, как это заведено у римлян: впереди стрелки и легковооруженные, которые должны вести наблюдение на случай внезапного приближения противника и разведывать, не спрятаны ли отряды по лесам; за ними следуют латники, частью — всадники, частью — пехотинцы; и вслед за ними — путепроходчики, которые рубят лес и разравнивают дорогу в тесных и труднопроходимых местах, чтобы <воины> не уставали от тяжелого пути; за ними — обоз полководца и военачальников и всадники для его охраны; потом сам <полководец> с отборными <частями> конницы и пехоты..."

Old Russian's бронистьци (bronist'tsi) = латники (latniki) in Russian.

[Perun74]

Alejandro Sanchez, so in your opinion "Latniki" is the right name for unit from the preview?

[Alejandro Sanchez]

Alejandro Sanchez, so in your opinion "Latniki" is the right name for unit from the preview?

No, I only continue dialog and found alternative word in Old Russian. In another side I don't know the time of the beginning of usage word lati and latnik =)

[absinthia]

Are you fully sure about that? Because in South-Slavic, f.e., we have the so-called "Oklopniki", which basically means the same and which many people believe to mean "plate-armoured soldiers", which is only partially correct - the "oklopniki" were plate-armoured only after the appearance of plate armour (obviously) and before that they were armoured with other armous (scale/lamellar/chain). I'm not saying this is the case with the "Latniki", but it is a possibility.

we have the same circumstances in norse/german languages concerning Panzer.
while most people today probably think of panser in relation to armoured vehicles, often synonymous to tanks, this was not always the case.
panser initially evolved from any sort of body armour, usually textile or leather, and eventually became similar to metal armour when that became the norm. again today we use kropspanser for any kind of body armour, such as kevlar.
so when considering laty/latniki it really comes down to the old chicken or egg, which came first.