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Thread: [Preview] The Kievan Rus'

  1. #121
    Perun74's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by markhaselb View Post
    Well maybe some people can be appeased by this:
    "Митрополит Илларион называл каганами киевских князей Владимира и Яослава Мудрого"

    Illarion of Kiev called/honored Vladimir I. (978–1015) and Yaroslav the Wise (1019–1054) with the title Khagan. This is from Wikipedia. It does however not state when they started calling themselves Knyaz/княз. What we know though is that later the rulers called themselves Velikiy Knyaz - I suppose that they abandoned the title of Khagan and switched primarily to Velikiy Knyaz as they strived for their own identity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bogatyr View Post
    http://lib.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=4868
    «Похвалимъ же и мы, по сил? нашеи, малыими похвалами великаа и дивнаа сътворьшааго нашего учителя и наставника, великааго кагана нашеа земли Володимера, вънука старааго Игоря»

    «вси людие, князи и вси судии земьскыи, юнош? и д?вы, старци съ юнотами да хвалять имя Господне»

    В рукописи Митрополита Илариона являются вот слова и каган и князь. Каганами называли только великих князей киевских, а других властителей рода Рюриковичей просто князями. Я считаю названия великий каган и великий князь одинаковыми.

    In Ilarion's writings he uses both knyaz and kagan. Kagan is only used as a title for the princes of Kiev, but knyaz is used for lesser Russian nobles. Velikiy kagan and velikiy knyaz seem to be used interchangeably.
    As the title "Kagan" was not a Christian, so Ilarion used title "Kagan" unofficially formally as a eulogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    As the Frankish Annuals record, in the year 838 a group of men calling themselves the Rhos travelled through Germany. When they were questioned by Emperor Louis the Pious, they told him their leader was referred to as "khagan" (written in the Annuals as the latin chacanus). Ahmed Ibn Rustah refers to the "khaqan rus" (translated to English as "Khagan of the Rus") who lives on an island on a river. The Norse Sagas all refer to their king as "Konung" which although does not mean khagan, it does mean King - same as Khagan.

    The point is, there are so many sources that dealt with the Rus' that refer to their leaders being called Khagan. They are foreign, but foreign sources can often be quite reliable as I hold all of these to be.
    Here we are talking about the 838'th year, 24 years before the arrival of Rurik to Novgorod http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik, and from there Askold and Dir to Kiev http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askold_and_Dir. Events in "The Great Conflicts" begins at the 872'nd year in that time in Kiev ruled for 8 years Askold and Dir (from the Primary Chronicle). Before them the rulers of Kiev probably called Hagan, but after 864's I doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    From these images the links you post you should see how exelet work our researchers ,modelers and skinners have done.
    What concerns the quality of the work done I say BRAVO
    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    But half of the pictures refer to units 2 centuries after the Rus' settlement around Kiev.
    Approximately more than half of the pictures refer to units X century, the rest IX and XI centuries. And approximately all that pictures are reconstructions from different archaeologicals graves like Black Grave http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Grave and Gnezdovo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnezdovo
    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    As for the "square" shields see what "WarGames" use.

    If you're doing a historical mod you should not based on the games
    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    The artsist of that image was based on an original of a Russian artist but also used the description of the Roman chronicles of Ioannes Tzimiskes campaign against Sviatoslav.
    It's a big difference between the artsist's images and reconstruction images
    By the way, in "Historia" of Leo Diaconis I find (in Russian translation) ".. that used their big shields" not "square shields". Archaeological finds show that the Rus did not use the square shields.
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 08, 2012 at 10:21 AM.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Perun74 View Post
    A
    By the way, in "Historia" of Leo Diaconis I find (in Russian translation) ".. that used their big shields" not "square shields". Archaeological finds show that the Rus did not use the square shields.
    Then the historians and artists that insist that non round shields were used by Vikings are wrong. Is that right?
    Relative post
    Drawing from a book that described the Sviatoslav's invasion in "Bulgaria" (The Danub's crossing). Strangely they drawn the vikings with long non round shields.


    Have you ever thought that "official" Russina history books might want to leave out the "slavic" or the "steppe" heritage of the Rus?
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 08, 2012 at 10:32 AM.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  3. #123
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    The word "shouting" reminds me the RTW with the "shouts" abillity .
    I wonder if they are still fanctional in M2TW engine. It would be useful with units that wont use shieldwall like "bodyguards".
    Both "druid" and "warcry" are still in and work quite well, I've used them in my mods. Druid boosts the moral of nearby warriors, while warcry boosts the attack damage and ferocity of the unit that uses it and also lowers enemy moral.

    Also, about the post above me, yes it is wrong for "vikings" to use non-round shields... The Norse and other Germanic tribes had a very long tradition of using round shields. Though later Norse used kite shields (after migrating to Normandy and becoming the Norman Knights that this mod uses), square shields had always been a Slavic tradition - not Norse.
    Last edited by Heathen Storm; February 08, 2012 at 12:27 PM.

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  4. #124
    Perun74's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Guys, I don't want criticize you, I just wanted to point out some of your mistakes, like square shields, like unit name "Latniki" (they don't look like latniki, because latnik is a warrior with the armor plate, not chain mail) or "Druzhina Khazar" (Khazars never were on Rus service), and "Druzhina Khazar" sounds like "Greek legion" or "Roman phalanx" or "Indian knight". But if you don't want to listen keep to do so as you see fit and good luck!

  5. #125
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Perun74 View Post
    Guys, I don't want criticize you, I just wanted to point out some of your mistakes, like square shields, like unit name "Latniki" (they don't look like latniki, because latnik is a warrior with the armor plate, not chain mail) or "Druzhina Khazar" (Khazars never were on Rus service), and "Druzhina Khazar" sounds like "Greek legion" or "Roman phalanx" or "Indian knight". But if you don't want to listen keep to do so as you see fit and good luck!
    It's not that we don't want to listen mate... It's that you have not given us any alternatives whatsoever! If you know what Khazar nobles called themselves, I am all ears. If you know another option for the word armored that does not involve plate mail, i would love to hear it! If you're going to give criticism it is expected that you at least give it constructively, rather than attacking us, our knowledge, and our sources.

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  6. #126

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    It's not that we don't want to listen mate... It's that you have not given us any alternatives whatsoever! If you know what Khazar nobles called themselves, I am all ears. If you know another option for the word armored that does not involve plate mail, i would love to hear it! If you're going to give criticism it is expected that you at least give it constructively, rather than attacking us, our knowledge, and our sources.
    Well put, Heathen Storm. I am very much looking forward to this mod.

  7. #127

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Guys i see that you did much better names for bulgarian units, and bulgarian and russian languages are pretty close, therefore would you use some names from there? For example rus Latniki should be better named Kopienostsi because its spearmen, Bowmen its Streltsi or Luchniki... Schitonostsi and Mechenostsi should be ok too)) and i cant understand Borcje - what does it mean? Kinda fighters? May be Schitonostsi could be beteer for them?
    Last edited by komatozz911; February 09, 2012 at 11:24 PM.

  8. #128
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by komatozz911 View Post
    Guys i see that you did much better names for bulgarian units, and bulgarian and russian languages are pretty close, therefore would you use some names from there? For example rus Latniki should be better named Kopienostsi because its spearmen, Bowmen its Streltsi or Luchniki... Schitonostsi and Mechenostsi should be ok too)) and i cant understand Borcje - what does it mean? Kinda fighters? May be Schitonostsi could be beteer for them?
    Well, there are problems with that. Bulgarian and Russian are both Slavic in origin but they're two different dialects, especially Old Russian.
    Latniki: I posted a source from a Russian website somewhere in here for this.. I do not remember what it is off the top of my head and I'm too tired to search for it.
    Bowmen: The name "Bogmenn" is in Old Norse, not Slavic. If you read the preview you'll understand that this period of Russian history was a mixture of Slavic and Norse culture...
    Borcje: Yes, it means something similiar to warrior, or levy. It is Old Slavic.

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  9. #129

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Heathen Storm, i know about difference)) and i've posted russian names... this source? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=521396&page=3 i have this one but i think in common Latniki its warriors in armor, like all in this book, but in case concrete unit it means warrior in armour plate...

    Bogmenn imho looks more slavic then norse)) and i've read preview))

  10. #130

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Perun74 View Post
    or "Druzhina Khazar" (Khazars never were on Rus service), and "Druzhina Khazar" sounds like "Greek legion" or "Roman phalanx" or "Indian knight". But if you don't want to listen keep to do so as you see fit and good luck!
    I understand you here but I think you didn't get that concept. Khazar Druzhina will be AoR unit so you will be able to recruit that unit if you conquer provinces marked as Khazar and only within those provinces (it will most probably by just Karcha and Suqdaq). The thing is that Anthonius want to make that AoR unit available only for Rus while I try to convince the team that the Khazar Druzhina unit should be available for recruitment for any faction that conquer any of those two provinces. I mean I can see no reasonwhy Khazar Druzhina should be exclusive AoR unit for Rus.

    BTW I think the name of that unit could also be corrected into something like Khazar Nobles for example as Druzhina is rather Slavic term which does not suit to Turkic Khazar sub-faction.
    Last edited by Silesian_Noble; February 10, 2012 at 05:28 AM.


  11. #131
    Perun74's Avatar Foederatus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    I understand you here but I think you didn't get that concept. Khazar Druzhina will be AoR unit so you will be able to recruit that unit if you conquer provinces marked as Khazar and only within those provinces (it will most probably by just Karcha and Suqdaq). The thing is that Anthonius want to make that AoR unit available only for Rus while I try to convince the team that the Khazar Druzhina unit should be available for recruitment for any faction that conquer any of those two provinces. I mean I can see no reasonwhy Khazar Druzhina should be exclusive AoR unit for Rus.

    BTW I think the name of that unit could also be corrected into something like Khazar Nobles for example as Druzhina is rather Slavic term which does not suit to Turkic Khazar sub-faction.
    Exactly, the word "Druzhina" (Дружина) comes from russian word "Drug" (Друг) in translation "Friend". More here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druzhina
    It's OK if that unit will be AoR, and like you said the name of that unit should be Khazar Nobles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    Latniki: I posted a source from a Russian website somewhere in here for this.. I do not remember what it is off the top of my head and I'm too tired to search for it.
    You mean this one? http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/titlesmilitary.html
    Please use EDIT button next time.
    AnthoniusII
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 10, 2012 at 07:15 AM.

  12. #132

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Peter tried to replace the legitimate Patriarchee of Kiev and the ONLY real Patriarch (Kiev) of all Russians with the archbishop of a small vilage known as Moscow. That was an ilegal action but it was not the only one.
    ...
    He renamed Moscow "The 3d Rome" and tried to become the ultimate ruller of all Orthodox.
    The Orthodox Church was forced to recognise that ilegal Patriarch as hope of a help for Orthodox populations against the Ottoman Empire.
    But..when "Rus" selebrated the 1000 years of Orthodoxy that celebration was AT Kiev and NOT Moscow as Kiev still is the 1st-IN LINE- Patriarchee among the Russians!
    It has no relation to the mod, but once U said that, I'll comment.

    The Russian Orthodox Church was autocephalous in the late of XVIIth c. in Moscow (not in Kiev), and that autocephaly was recognized by other Orthodox Churches. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Патриар...си

    In Kiev, the Patriarch was not, in Kiev was the Metropolitan. Your words are lies. Do U know the difference between the Patriarch and the Metropolitan? Moscow is the successor of Rus', not Kiev, which was conquered by the Lithuanians. Kiev and Kievan Land lost their independence. Patriarch of Moscow officially became head of the Orthodox Faith of all Rus' before Peter I.

    In XVII c. Moscow was not the village. If U really think it, please refrain from commenting on this theme. Political power was in Moscow, but not in Kiev, which became a provincial town after the XIII c.

    Holy Roman Empire also had no continuity from Rome, and what? Moscow was most powerfull Orthodox state in world in this time, so the idea of the Third Rome was relevant. Because the Second Rome - Constantinople, which was the citadel of Orthodoxy, fell.
    Last edited by Alejandro Sanchez; February 10, 2012 at 09:39 AM.

  13. #133
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    I understand you here but I think you didn't get that concept. Khazar Druzhina will be AoR unit so you will be able to recruit that unit if you conquer provinces marked as Khazar and only within those provinces (it will most probably by just Karcha and Suqdaq). The thing is that Anthonius want to make that AoR unit available only for Rus while I try to convince the team that the Khazar Druzhina unit should be available for recruitment for any faction that conquer any of those two provinces. I mean I can see no reasonwhy Khazar Druzhina should be exclusive AoR unit for Rus.

    BTW I think the name of that unit could also be corrected into something like Khazar Nobles for example as Druzhina is rather Slavic term which does not suit to Turkic Khazar sub-faction.
    I would gladly change it. Anyone know the Turkic term for nobility?

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  14. #134

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Bagatur may be ? or Yigit(noble,brave) or Bégit-Bégleri(plurals of Bég) ? how high their rank is ?
    Last edited by Tureuki; February 10, 2012 at 01:29 PM.

  15. #135
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    Bagatur may be ? or Yigit(noble,brave) or Bégit-Bégleri(plurals of Bég) ? how high their rank is ?
    Well I would say they're probably middle to high nobles, but not high enough to be close to the king of the Khazars. Bagatur may be confused with the Bulgarians, are there any other possible names?

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  16. #136

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Tarkhan would be too much for them in that case, Khazar Bégit or Bégleri is fits I guess, there is also Alp(plural Alpagut) which means brave,noble.

  17. #137
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Tureuki View Post
    Tarkhan would be too much for them in that case, Khazar Bégit or Bégleri is fits I guess, there is also Alp(plural Alpagut) which means brave,noble.
    Great! Changed the name to Begleri. Thank you mate! +Rep

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  18. #138
    Perun74's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Heathen Storm, don't you want change "Latniki" name on "Kopienostsy" (Spearmen) or "Voi s kopiami" (Warriors with the spears)?

  19. #139
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by Perun74 View Post
    Heathen Storm, don't you want change "Latniki" name on "Kopienostsy" (Spearmen) or "Voi s kopiami" (Warriors with the spears)?
    Do you have any sources for Latniki specifically referring to plate armor?
    According to this site, "pantsir" - a loanword from Greek - meant plate armor.
    Last edited by Heathen Storm; February 11, 2012 at 03:47 AM.

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  20. #140
    Perun74's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Even on the site that you're according look "Lati kopeishchika" then see illustration how look laty/lati
    Here http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...r/newsarms.htm
    And here http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...or/pikeman.htm
    Units from the preview whom you called "Latniki" have "Kolchuga" (http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...mor/russ29.htm), not "lati".
    So they can't be called "Latniki".

    Units from the preview whom you called "Latniki" have "Kolchuga" (http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/m...mor/russ29.htm), not "lati".
    So they can't be called "Latniki".

    To Moderators
    Please delete this post, i just forgot use "Edit". Sorry.
    --EDITED AS PER REQUEST--
    Last edited by koultouras; February 11, 2012 at 06:04 AM.

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