[Preview] The Kievan Rus'

[Diocle]

Sadly I do no know well the history of the birth of the first Russian state, but maybe all the people here are saying the same thing using different words?

Vikings from Sweden, powerful Steppe Peoples, Slaves expanding their influence, Frankish Carolingian Germans.... all these people fhighting for supremacy in the same lands, meanwhile excanging cultures, goods and languages, don't could be possible that the same king could be called in different ways, Kunig, Kagan or Konig......from the various people who lived in that geographical area?

I know that the words are important; words like Byzantine/East Romans can be used to indicate two very different approach to the same historical entity!

But here not! Here I do not see this! Here I see some different sources which use different languages to describe probably the same thing: the glorious birth of the first Russian Slavic Principate!

After my beloved Lombards, the Rus will be my army!

Here I saw really a great work!! Thank you Mod Team and researchers!!

[Bogatyr]

I looked at some primary sources cited for use of the Turkic title. Metropolitan Ilarion's Sermon on Law and Grace is convincing in that it names Vladimir I of Kiev "great kagan of our land." This same text also uses the word "knyaz" in a general sense though, and keep in mind that it dates well past the period in question. I know other texts from the lifetime of Vladimir and his immediate successors, the Primary Chronicle in particular, use "velikiy knyaz" or "knyaz" to name respectively the overlords of Kiev and lesser nobles. I think "Kagan," as it was rendered in the Old Slavonic text, is satisfactory as a hypothetical title for the Rus faction leader in the mod, if only for the ambiguity of the place and period. Still, a Norse or Slavic title would be equally valid.

Looking back at the preview, I see designated ethnic names for social strata, "Khagan," "Druzhina," "Liudi." Why are "princes" or "merchants" left untranslated? Having already risked peeving certain parties by choosing one etymology over another, you could easily just bite the bullet and call the princes "knyazi" and the merchants "kuptsy."

[Heathen Storm]

I looked at some primary sources cited for use of the Turkic title. Metropolitan Ilarion's Sermon on Law and Grace is convincing in that it names Vladimir I of Kiev "great kagan of our land." This same text also uses the word "knyaz" in a general sense though, and keep in mind that it dates well past the period in question. I know other texts from the lifetime of Vladimir and his immediate successors, the Primary Chronicle in particular, use "velikiy knyaz" or "knyaz" to name respectively the overlords of Kiev and lesser nobles. I think "Kagan," as it was rendered in the Old Slavonic text, is satisfactory as a hypothetical title for the Rus faction leader in the mod, if only for the ambiguity of the place and period. Still, a Norse or Slavic title would be equally valid.

Looking back at the preview, I see designated ethnic names for social strata, "Khagan," "Druzhina," "Liudi." Why are "princes" or "merchants" left untranslated? Having already risked peeving certain parties by choosing one etymology over another, you could easily just bite the bullet and call the princes "knyazi" and the merchants "kuptsy."

Why on earth did I do that... strange. Thank you for pointing that out! Fixing right now +rep!
EDIT: Can't rep yet... Will rep you soon

[Fedual]

You are allways making new units and by now we have seen so many new and in my mind best looking units ever created with MTW2, is it ever going to be finished


+rep from a deeply depressed fan from lack of playing this totally mindblowing mod, would be nice if you could get the cities modified with the help of TATW team also, but omg i just made the mod bigger , i would like to see the great walls of contrantinople tho hehe

but as i said, + rep as much as i can, and keep up the awesome work


Regards, Fedual

[Bogatyr]

Glad my nitpicking helps. It looks that much better now!

I dunno how relevant this is but will Rus', as a heathen faction before 988, have faction-specific religious buildings? Instead of having a building tree for each individual god, I might pair corresponding Slavic and Norse gods. In Europa Barbarorum, for example, the Seleucid Empire has a combined temple to Zeus-Ormazd to emphasize the dual-culture of the faction. As the heathen Scandinavians and Slavs had similar rituals, a sacred grove of Svarog-Odin, shrine to Perun-Thor, idol of Veles-Loki, make sense to me, as historically the Varyags' customs blended with the Slavs to the point where they totally assimilated.

[Heathen Storm]

Glad my nitpicking helps. It looks that much better now!

I dunno how relevant this is but will Rus', as a heathen faction before 988, have faction-specific religious buildings? Instead of having a building tree for each individual god, I might pair corresponding Slavic and Norse gods. In Europa Barbarorum, for example, the Seleucid Empire has a combined temple to Zeus-Ormazd to emphasize the dual-culture of the faction. As the heathen Scandinavians and Slavs had similar rituals, a sacred grove of Svarog-Odin, shrine to Perun-Thor, idol of Veles-Loki, make sense to me, as historically the Varyags' customs blended with the Slavs to the point where they totally assimilated.

That would be a great idea. I actually don't know the team's plan on religious buildings, I was simply bringing to people's attention the different deities they worshiped.
...I may be biased considering I'm a pagan myself but that's out of the picture...

[Constantine XII]

An another great preview from TGW Team!!!!

[hekk]

Great preview. The units look absolutely great. I can't wait to play these badass Eastern Vikings.

[komatozz911]

As for sourses, "Повесть временных лет": http://old-russian.chat.ru/01povest.htm
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%...BB%D0%B5%D1%82
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

no khagan, but knyaz there... even in wiki one russian ruler named duke, is it reason to named state duchy?

there some theories about russian khaganate, for example it was alanians, but it just theories...

p.s. my english not so good to explain all i want and i have only russian books and links, but its not good idea to use one of theorie to name faction...

[Bogatyr]

As for sourses, "Повесть временных лет": http://old-russian.chat.ru/01povest.htm
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%...BB%D0%B5%D1%82
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

no khagan, but knyaz there... even in wiki one russian ruler named duke, is it reason to named state duchy?

there some theories about russian khaganate, for example it was alanians, but it just theories...

p.s. my english not so good to explain all i want and i have only russian books and links, but its not good idea to use one of theorie to name faction...

http://lib.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=4868

«Похвалимъ же и мы, по силѣ нашеи, малыими похвалами великаа и дивнаа сътворьшааго нашего учителя и наставника, великааго кагана нашеа земли Володимера, вънука старааго Игоря»

«вси людие, князи и вси судии земьскыи, юношѣ и дѣвы, старци съ юнотами да хвалять имя Господне»

В рукописи Митрополита Илариона являются вот слова и каган и князь. Каганами называли только великих князей киевских, а других властителей рода Рюриковичей просто князями. Я считаю названия великий каган и великий князь одинаковыми.

In Ilarion's writings he uses both knyaz and kagan. Kagan is only used as a title for the princes of Kiev, but knyaz is used for lesser Russian nobles. Velikiy kagan and velikiy knyaz seem to be used interchangeably.

[Bernardius]

great!!! i just cant wait to play them! GIVE IT TO ME, MY PRECIOUS!!!

[PlPs]

Wow! +rep

[tomySVK]

Great previews lately (also the The Lombard Duchies preview)! Great work TGC team.

[AnthoniusII]

I looked at some primary sources cited for use of the Turkic title. Metropolitan Ilarion's Sermon on Law and Grace is convincing in that it names Vladimir I of Kiev "great kagan of our land." This same text also uses the word "knyaz" in a general sense though, and keep in mind that it dates well past the period in question. I know other texts from the lifetime of Vladimir and his immediate successors, the Primary Chronicle in particular, use "velikiy knyaz" or "knyaz" to name respectively the overlords of Kiev and lesser nobles. I think "Kagan," as it was rendered in the Old Slavonic text, is satisfactory as a hypothetical title for the Rus faction leader in the mod, if only for the ambiguity of the place and period. Still, a Norse or Slavic title would be equally valid.

Looking back at the preview, I see designated ethnic names for social strata, "Khagan," "Druzhina," "Liudi." Why are "princes" or "merchants" left untranslated? Having already risked peeving certain parties by choosing one etymology over another, you could easily just bite the bullet and call the princes "knyazi" and the merchants "kuptsy."

As Absinthia mentioned "we are always open for constractive critisism and ideas that will help us to learn more. I have told before that this mod is actually a way for us too to learn.

You are allways making new units and by now we have seen so many new and in my mind best looking units ever created with MTW2, is it ever going to be finished


+rep from a deeply depressed fan from lack of playing this totally mindblowing mod, would be nice if you could get the cities modified with the help of TATW team also, but omg i just made the mod bigger , i would like to see the great walls of contrantinople tho hehe

but as i said, + rep as much as i can, and keep up the awesome work


Regards, Fedual

Yes its going to be finished.
Romans are to close to finish ,Pechenegs and Magyars are but we still need historians to make their preview texts.

Glad my nitpicking helps. It looks that much better now!

I dunno how relevant this is but will Rus', as a heathen faction before 988, have faction-specific religious buildings? Instead of having a building tree for each individual god, I might pair corresponding Slavic and Norse gods. In Europa Barbarorum, for example, the Seleucid Empire has a combined temple to Zeus-Ormazd to emphasize the dual-culture of the faction. As the heathen Scandinavians and Slavs had similar rituals, a sacred grove of Svarog-Odin, shrine to Perun-Thor, idol of Veles-Loki, make sense to me, as historically the Varyags' customs blended with the Slavs to the point where they totally assimilated.

That would be a great idea. I actually don't know the team's plan on religious buildings, I was simply bringing to people's attention the different deities they worshiped.
...I may be biased considering I'm a pagan myself but that's out of the picture...

We only have a clear "recruitment" system-building tree. For the rest we are open in any idea that will lead players to knowlege and unique features.
For example: Players must not be supriced if a unit will be available via a port like the ships will be.

http://lib.pushkinskijdom.ru/Default.aspx?tabid=4868

«Похвалимъ же и мы, по силѣ нашеи, малыими похвалами великаа и дивнаа сътворьшааго нашего учителя и наставника, великааго кагана нашеа земли Володимера, вънука старааго Игоря»

«вси людие, князи и вси судии земьскыи, юношѣ и дѣвы, старци съ юнотами да хвалять имя Господне»

В рукописи Митрополита Илариона являются вот слова и каган и князь. Каганами называли только великих князей киевских, а других властителей рода Рюриковичей просто князями. Я считаю названия великий каган и великий князь одинаковыми.

In Ilarion's writings he uses both knyaz and kagan. Kagan is only used as a title for the princes of Kiev, but knyaz is used for lesser Russian nobles. Velikiy kagan and velikiy knyaz seem to be used interchangeably.

Then HS was right up to a point.

As i said i am not a Russian history expert as i am not a German history expert too.
TGC from its early steps tries to find persons with deep knowlege in every faction's history. We are not trying here to prove somethng that we are not. I could make East Frankia for example as a fction and name the units "heavy swordmen, heavy infantry men " etc and create as many units as i would like. In fact ...inodrer to convince the researchers of East Frankia to add a heavy infantry unit in the roster long conversations took place.
Afcourse in a game there are certain limitations in portay units and there are certain unit slot limitations that do not allow us to "show" all kind of warriors used in real.
You must understand that in a historical mod hundreds of hours consumed by researchers and creators trying to bring in to "life" the essence of each era.
We are not claim that we know everything in any matter. No one does. But what i am proud of this team is that works under a realistic point of view that help us all to learn just a bit about those people and help us all to brake "myths" that politics forced us to learn.

Thank you all for your kind words and for your critisism that will allow us to improve our "project".

[Bogatyr]

You don't need to sell me, sir. I have lurked on the TGC subforum for months now. This is easily my favorite mod in development for Kingdoms! The blood and sweat and love that goes into this is not lost on me. Every time a new faction preview comes out, I say to myself "this is the best looking faction yet." That is, until the next preview! Rus' is easily my favorite faction, so if I get a bit carried away forgive me.

[Caudillo87]

After the reconstructor Fedorov, X century:
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...54/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...59/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...61/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...66/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...71/full_image/
http://www.ois.org.ua/club/public/img/06.jpg
The battle against the Khazars http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...80/full_image/
Second half of X cent. http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...83/full_image/
Russian druzhinnik (warrior of druzhina end X - start XI cent.) http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...87/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...57/full_image/

And another reconstructors:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

weapons of the Slavs IX-XI cent.


Rus druzhinnik X cent.


Druzhinnik from the Knyaz (not Khazar) Druzhina X cent.

Wow those Rus' look like roman troops, it is certainly undeniable that the Eastern Roman Empire had the biggest impact on military dress. I wonder if they copied directly or just modified the armor to appear more Russian?

[AnthoniusII]

After the reconstructor Fedorov, X century:
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...54/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...59/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...61/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...66/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...71/full_image/
http://www.ois.org.ua/club/public/img/06.jpg
The battle against the Khazars http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...80/full_image/
Second half of X cent. http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...83/full_image/
Russian druzhinnik (warrior of druzhina end X - start XI cent.) http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...87/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...57/full_image/

And another reconstructors:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

weapons of the Slavs IX-XI cent.


Rus druzhinnik X cent.


Druzhinnik from the Knyaz (not Khazar) Druzhina X cent.

From these images the links you post you should see how exelet work our researchers ,modelers and skinners have done.
But half of the pictures refer to units 2 centuries after the Rus' settlement around Kiev. You can see the Khazar influence in the warriors that use horses with spears and bows!
As for the "square" shields see what "WarGames" use.



The artsist of that image was based on an original of a Russian artist but also used the description of the Roman chronicles of Ioannes Tzimiskes campaign against Sviatoslav.

The battle was violent but the Romans could not brake through the barbarians that used their square shields to fortify behind of.
Hours of battle gave no victor and Romans started to lose their moralle.
Then the Emperor took Athanatoi and charged on th ebarbarians wall of shields....
...''The evening star was already sinking when the Emperor John launched his finally cavalry-charge on the Russians with devastating effect: ''You are Romans!'' he cried, ,,Now show your valour in your deeds!'' Thus heartened, the cavalry burst out with irrestible ardour. The bugles sound the charge. The Byzantine battle-cry rang out. The Russians wavered and fled. Their losses were enormous.''

Leo Diaconis, Historia

[Russianguy]

Cool preview!
But name of mod is little bit incorrect, Russia never was a "khaganat".

[BURNY26]

For all the guys who are about details and posting non-constructive criticism.


Im making strat map models , Im giving it my best to deliver good work . But dont expect me to take my ruler and measure everything out of an entire city!

[Lord Plankton]

Nice preview and great units!

One question: Are the druzhina gonna have the axe as primary and the sword/shield combo as secondary weapon? i know this is possible, from a unit of broken crescent i believe, but they tend to change their weapon rather randomly than situational. I guess they would always use the shield/sword combo in shieldwall though.