[Preview] The Kievan Rus'

[lDiesel]

much better, than modmakers, btw

[koultouras]

ehem.....

edit
[Wargames Research Group] Armies of the Dark Ages 600-1066
by Ian Heath

[Legio]

I think I know which faction I'm playing as first!

[lDiesel]

Source, please

[Heathen Storm]

much better, than modmakers, btw

Okay, if you truly believe so then start making suggestions so we can make it better.
...I'm still waiting.

[Diodredai]

Great preview + rep!
From heart and soul of the Magyar department of the Dominion of the Sword team, we wish you further great previews and good health so you may complete this grand undertaking, which no other mod has tried (this period in history).

I await your Magyar preview!
Also regarding the Khaganate debate, I am not an expert in that area but a few guidelines next time someone wants to challenge something:
1., Cite your sources. If it is in your native language, so be it.
2., Quote your source. Book name, page, appendix exct.
3., Wikipedia is a source that is accessed by anyone. Historian and flaming nationalist alike. However, if you have no alternative, then feel free to do so: just remember to back up your assertion with external sources! Note: nothing is rock solid in this world. A claim can be disproved. Think of Galileo Galilei.

~ Diodredai

[spartan753]

I have seen no sources from those who say that the Rus was never a khaganate, and several from the TGC team. People, please use sources, if you don't, you will just look like trolls.

And from personal experience, historians who are born/from the country you are studying, is rarely the most reliable sources. Why, you ask? Because they have a motive for writing. And I have learned that half of all Norwegian history I learned at school (in Norway of course) are either completely wrong, popular myths or historical distortions (God, I hate nationalism, and people who thinks nations exists outside the imagination of mankind)

On a slightly different note: stunning work by the TGC team! What I love the most about you guys is how bloody fast you work. You have made me believe that everytime I go to twcenter a new preview will be on the front page. I love you guys. <3

[Caudillo87]

+Rep Awesome job guys, really looking forward to the release

[Agisilaos]

Great preview

[Deutschland]

Great preview! +rep

[Bagatyr]

Ok let me intervene in this . Now furst - The privew is great and unbelievable and fantastic .Rep +
Now about the history issue : I don't pretend that i know history of Dark Age Rus lands .But TGC'team you should have in maind that history resurch is not making only based on foreign sources and view of some western popular books made by Western enthusiasts that are not very awear with history of Eastern Europe (i am talking of Jean Heath and other like him that make quite alot mistakes and ignore the resurch of the local archaeologists and historians ).You should chek the archaeological resurch from this lands and also the written sources and inscriptions from Rus land from the era and then make conclusion .As much as i know in rus medieval chronicals the old rus lords are great princes (knqze) and Kievun Rus was kniajesvto(княжество)princedom .The Khaganate is only a theory and not secure at all .
Now a present for all fans of Kiev Rus :

[Von Pressburg]

Another awesome preview! TGC team is doing a really good job

[gustave]

Awesome preview, once again !

[markhaselb]

Well maybe some people can be appeased by this:
"Митрополит Илларион называл каганами киевских князей Владимира и Яослава Мудрого"

Illarion of Kiev called/honored Vladimir I. (978–1015) and Yaroslav the Wise (1019–1054) with the title Khagan. This is from Wikipedia. It does however not state when they started calling themselves Knyaz/княз. What we know though is that later the rulers called themselves Velikiy Knyaz - I suppose that they abandoned the title of Khagan and switched primarily to Velikiy Knyaz as they strived for their own identity.

[Bogatyr]

First of all, cool preview and nice looking units.

Some of the Russian posters here are a little combative in their responses, but their hearts are in the right place. This isn't nationalism vs. historical accuracy (it's accepted that early Russian history is a pretty multi-ethnic picture) so much as a reaction to the kinda haphazard way in which the mod presents this picture. Indeed I might go farther and ask whether, given how murky and undefined the political (cities? Slavic/Finnic/Turkic/Iranic tribes, Norse raids) and ethic boundaries were in pre-Kievan Rus, there should be any Rus faction before 862. But for aesthetics and cool factor (maybe game balance), this is a great idea for a faction.

I was under the impression that "khaganate" is a modern historiographical term, used to designate the political landscape of the area before Rurik and , than anything else. Maybe the Khazars and other Turkic peoples in the early middle ages would refer to any ruler or prince (Russian or otherwise) as "khagan" in their own tongue, just as the Slavs would refer to them as "knyaz" and the Norsemen "jarl" or "graf," Latins "dux" or "princeps," etc.

Also, huskarlar = druzhina, I think these are one and the same, just different etymologies.

[markhaselb]

Very good input from Bogatyr, also a ruler can call himself as certain natives would call their leaders to gain local acceptance. I am just wondering why I am repeating this, it is basically all explained in the preview already.

[Perun74]

i might be misinterpreting the title and the cover image:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Heathen Storm]

Ok let me intervene in this . Now furst - The privew is great and unbelievable and fantastic .Rep +
Now about the history issue : I don't pretend that i know history of Dark Age Rus lands .But TGC'team you should have in maind that history resurch is not making only based on foreign sources and view of some western popular books made by Western enthusiasts that are not very awear with history of Eastern Europe (i am talking of Jean Heath and other like him that make quite alot mistakes and ignore the resurch of the local archaeologists and historians ).You should chek the archaeological resurch from this lands and also the written sources and inscriptions from Rus land from the era and then make conclusion .As much as i know in rus medieval chronicals the old rus lords are great princes (knqze) and Kievun Rus was kniajesvto(княжество)princedom .The Khaganate is only a theory and not secure at all .

I agree with you that we should look for sources truly from Russia, and I have looked. The only real source that I can really find is the Russian Chronicles and yes, they mention "Prince" and "Grand-Prince". But the problem with the Russian Chronicles is that they are written from a later date, after the Rus' adopted the term of Prince and Grand Prince into their government. There are so many sources from many of the rulers and nations that dealt with the Rus' during the time of our mod.

As the Frankish Annuals record, in the year 838 a group of men calling themselves the Rhos travelled through Germany. When they were questioned by Emperor Louis the Pious, they told him their leader was referred to as "khagan" (written in the Annuals as the latin chacanus). Ahmed Ibn Rustah refers to the "khaqan rus" (translated to English as "Khagan of the Rus") who lives on an island on a river. The Norse Sagas all refer to their king as "Konung" which although does not mean khagan, it does mean King - same as Khagan.

The point is, there are so many sources that dealt with the Rus' that refer to their leaders being called Khagan. They are foreign, but foreign sources can often be quite reliable as I hold all of these to be.

First of all, cool preview and nice looking units.

Some of the Russian posters here are a little combative in their responses, but their hearts are in the right place. This isn't nationalism vs. historical accuracy (it's accepted that early Russian history is a pretty multi-ethnic picture) so much as a reaction to the kinda haphazard way in which the mod presents this picture. Indeed I might go farther and ask whether, given how murky and undefined the political (cities? Slavic/Finnic/Turkic/Iranic tribes, Norse raids) and ethic boundaries were in pre-Kievan Rus, there should be any Rus faction before 862. But for aesthetics and cool factor (maybe game balance), this is a great idea for a faction.

I certainly can agree that the mod paints the picture a bit haphazardly but unfortunately that's all we can really do with the amount of sources we have that are during that time. The political and social events of the early Rus' is more of a mudpit than anything else I've had to deal with. I want nothing but historical accuracy for this faction and I really do want the people of TWC to aid me in reaching that historical accuracy.

I was under the impression that "khaganate" is a modern historiographical term, used to designate the political landscape of the area before Rurik and , than anything else. Maybe the Khazars and other Turkic peoples in the early middle ages would refer to any ruler or prince (Russian or otherwise) as "khagan" in their own tongue, just as the Slavs would refer to them as "knyaz" and the Norsemen "jarl" or "graf," Latins "dux" or "princeps," etc.

Again, you're absolutely correct that depending on the ethnicity of the person, the name would be different. But as mentioned above, we have a latin source calling their leader a chacanus, which is the latin term for Khagan.

[Karaman Beyi]

Firstly i congrulate you all for your great, detailed and nice efforts.
I continuously follow your updates on Turkish TW site (TTW) and i know what you create about texture, models and banners, really brilliant!

And a question for you,
Which religion are you going to make for the Khazars, Judaism?

[Perun74]

I am sorry that rectangular shields disapointed you...
Then historians that refer to those shields are wrong...
And so the creator of that model created a fictional one!

More info in a while!

After the reconstructor Fedorov, X century:
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...54/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...59/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...61/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...66/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...71/full_image/
http://www.ois.org.ua/club/public/img/06.jpg
The battle against the Khazars http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...80/full_image/
Second half of X cent. http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...83/full_image/
Russian druzhinnik (warrior of druzhina end X - start XI cent.) http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...87/full_image/
http://photo.qip.ru/users/oboroten86...57/full_image/

And another reconstructors:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

weapons of the Slavs IX-XI cent.


Rus druzhinnik X cent.


Druzhinnik from the Knyaz (not Khazar) Druzhina X cent.