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Thread: [Preview] The Kievan Rus'

  1. #21

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by SHREDDER View Post
    what is this nonsense ? You know a little history? Kievan Rus was never "Khaganate"!
    sure wikipedia is all wrong...
    According to East Slavic chronicles, Oleg was supreme ruler of the Rus' from 882 to 912. This traditional dating has been challenged by some historians, who point out that it is inconsistent with such other sources as the Schechter Letter, which mentions the activities of certain khagan HLGW of Rus' as late the 940s, during the reign of Byzantine Emperor Romanus I.
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

  2. #22
    SHREDDER's Avatar Creator CoW, TATW, WF&S
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Wiki? As a historical source? Are you serious ?

    It seems that this is fantasy mod ... When the orcs and elves will show?

    and we had hoped that he historic ...
    3Dmodeller for Call of Warhammer Third Age With Fire and Sword 2 Hetmanat

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  3. #23

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by SHREDDER View Post
    Wiki? As a historical source? Are you serious ?

    It seems that this is fantasy mod ... When the orcs and elves will show?

    and we had hoped that he historic ...
    i rather trust wikipedia as a source than a person of the internet making claims without backing!
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

  4. #24

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Khaganate??? OMG!!!!

  5. #25
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Actually nothing is "Anthonius free" in TGC...
    Seriusly now...What i do in the team is actually secondary to the work original
    creators such modelers,skiners ,coders ,researchers do for the mod.
    As secondary addition ,my work is not worth to be mentioned in the credits list that rightfully belongs to original creators that without them nothing would become real.
    Your honor the mod's fans with your humbleness. I think your contribution as organiser should not be underestimated

    Ive repped yourself and Heathen Storm but can you please give us some links for the other contributors.

    Quote Originally Posted by SHREDDER View Post
    what is this nonsense ? You know a little history? Kievan Rus was never "Khaganate"!
    At first i thought that was strange aswell, never heard that before. But after reading the history blurb it makes sense that the rus adopted the hierarchical structure of their powerful neighbour. It doesn't mean that they were turkic in any way, its just the title. Just as the tsars took the name of the caesars, doesn't mean they were romans.

    I find it hard to believe that this is unhistorical seeing the level of historical accuracy provided by this mod. But if there are some sources contradicting this i think they would be welcome, as most people here are interested in historical correctness.
    Last edited by Wallachian; February 06, 2012 at 05:27 AM.

  6. #26
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    I have had this discusion numerous time whilst researching for AoDIV so I had this article to hand
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    From the eighth to tenth centuries there were only two types of trading settlements in Eurasia: in the East there was the "var;" in the West there was a permanent or semipermanent trading place for traveling merchants called in Germanic "vik." The frontier between the "var" and "vik" types of settlements was the river Elbe.
    In both types there were local or foreign workers who served the merchants as guards, mercenaries, shoppers, etc. . . To the west of the Elbe these people were called "vikings." To the east of the Elbe, they were known as "varjag" [varangians]. . . . It is futile to attempt to establish the nationality of the "vikings" and the "varjag." They were, above all, professionals ready to serve anyone who needed their skills and could pay for their services.
    III. Eastern Europe Enters the Historical Scene (Ninth Century): Emergence of Rus.
    Eastern Europe entered the historical scene, i.e., the era for which written records exist, in the ninth century as a result of its discovery by the civilization of the Mediterranean Sea, which created there its colonial "duplication," the economic-cultural sphere of the Mediterranean. One may ask the legitimate question: why did this occur in the ninth century and not in the fifth or twelfth? What incentive stimulated the culture of the Mediterranean to discover Eastern Europe shortly before the ninth century?
    The emergence of the Arab Muslim empire around 650 had split the Mediterranean area into two independent parts, the Muslim southern and eastern littoral, and the Christian northern shore. . . . By 740 the Arabs had already conquered all the territory they could control. In the north, they had gone as far as Frankish Gaul, but Tours and Poitiers convinced them that the Pyrenees were a reasonable frontier. . . .
    By 740 booty was no longer being captured, and it became imperative to exchange the war economy for a system of production. . . . The Abbasside government then confronted a problem that is familiar to all of us today--that of energy generation. Until the industrial revolution of the nineteenth century, the only profitable source of energy was slave labor. But where was one to get slaves at that time? Neither Muslims nor Christians were permitted by their religion to enslave their own believers. Wars waged between the Christians and Muslims produced prisoners of war whom both sides sought to exchange. But there was a vast territory beyond the cultural world of that time, east of the Elbe River and west and north of the Syr Darya River. This teritory was soon recognized as a reservoir of potential slaves, who were the "sclav." The idea of slave trade may be repugnant to us today, but we should not forget that in the Middle Ages, as in the days of the Roman Empire, slaves were regarded as an important commodity. The importation of slaves was a highly respected profession, requiring experience, expediency, and proficiency.
    The territory called "Sclavia" now became (as did Africa from the sixteenth to eighteenth centuries) a hunting ground from which one could obtain the important commodity called "sclava," or slaves. Arabic geographers during the classic period of Islamic science give a detailed description of how hunters from the Christian West and the Islamic East pursued their trade. Special factories whose purpose was the production of eunuchs were established in Verdun in the west and in Khwarizm in the east.
    The ninth-century Arabic author Ibn Khurdadhbeh, who as the chief of the Abbasside intelligence system had expert knowledge of trade routes and trading companies visiting the Caliphate, informs us that only two international trading companies engaged in the Eurasian slave trade: the Jewish "Radhaniya" and the non-Jewish "Rus. . . ." Iban Khurdadhbeh's information, written sometime between 840 and 880, is the earliest mention of the "Rus" in existing sources.
    Now we are faced with an unexpected phenomenon. The "Rus" who had just emerged from obscurity, were already skilled international merchants. Who were these "Rus"? There were certainly not a primitaive tribal group with no knowledge of geography, foreign languages, or economics. They must have possessed an idea of the law of the merchant and--a very important point--they must have attained creditability in the world of commerce. . . .
    The Radhaniya and the Rus were both based in Roman Gaul, the Radhaniya around Arles and Marseille, and the Rus in a region of present-day south-central France near Rodez ("Rusi" in Middle French, and "Ruzzi" in Middle German).
    The Radhaniya discovered Eastern Europe as a commercial base shortly after 750. . . . It is clear why the Radhaniya were the first traders to enter Eastern Europe. With the division of the Mediterranean area about 660, neither Muslims nor Christians could travel and trade freely on the sea, since they were in a continuous state of war. Only former Roman subjects who were of Jewish faith could travel without danger from Marseille to North Africa and from there to Constantinople. Their destination was the capital of the Turkic Khazars [in south Russia] where it was easy to get slaves. The Volga and Don rivers soon developed into a highway of slave trade. . . As a result of the cooperation between the Radhaniya and the Khazars, the military and economic leaders of the Khazar state converted to Judaism. . . .
    In the meantime, the non-Jewish merchants from Rodez (Rus) had determined to seek access to this eastern El Dorado. Since they could not use the Mediterranean route, they (like Christopher Columbus at a later date) decided to circumnavigate. . . .
    The Scandinavian peninsula was soon circumnavigatted and . . . a route was discovered . . . on the Gulf of Finland to the Neva River. Both routes continued to the Volga basin. New routes to El Dorado followed, and along these the trading company "Rus" established settlements. The most important was located on the peninsula near Jaroslavl and the later Rostov, originally populated by the Fennic Merjans. It was managed by the charismatic Viking clan of Ynglingar. . . .
    By the period 800-860 Eastern Europe had already been apportioned into two spheres of interests. While the south remained divided between Avars, Bulgars, and Khazars, northeastern Europe became the dominion of a newly activated society led by agents of the "Rus" company.
    Unhappily, no accounts of peoples who followed the routes established by the Rus-Viking cooperation have survived. But there is no reason to doubt that enterprising individuals and groups of seafaring people tried their luck in East European trade, regardless of their origin or ties to the aforementioned trading companies. . . . The Rus appear as international merchants. . . .
    The Kabar revolution in Khazaria, described by Constantine Porphyrogenitus, was the struggle of the Khagan [Khazar monarch] and his supporters to free the realm from the supremacy of the majordomo and the Judaism he imposed. After his defeat the Khazar Khagan was forced to leave the country and found refuge in the Rus company's settlement near Rostov. . . . Since the Khagan had political charisma, his stay in the commercial settlement of the Rus company elevated it to the status of an imperial political center . . . . The result was the emergence of the Rus Khaganate, about which our first information is dated 839 A.D. . . . . Already during the 830s the Volga Rus were to eliminate the Radhaniya from competition in Eastern Europe.
    IV. The Southern Impact on the Emerging Rus State
    Up to this point we have observed the East European scene primarily from a northern perspective . . . . By the turn of the tenth century, however, two sets of developments had occurred in the Mediterranian area which affected [events], namely Charlemagne's conquest of the Avars and the Cyrillo-Methodian mission.
    The first began with Charlemagne's conquest of the mighty East Central European Avar realm which resulted in . . . the "pacification" of the Slavs, the slaves of the former Avar empire. . . . By the 860s both Romes (even though they were on nonspeaking terms--I refer here to the alienation between Patriarch Photius and Pope Nicholas) decided to fill the vacuum left by the dissolution of the Avar realm by elevating the former slaves of the Avars, the Slavs. Their barbaric tongue was now to become a sacred language alongside Hebrew, Greek, and Latin. Since at that time only Constantinople had scholars who could create a new literary language and eventually translate Christian religious writing, the brothers Cyril and Methodius, friends of Photius, journeyed from the eastern capital of Christendom to Moravia, located on territory claimed by the Roman pope.
    The paradox of the Cyrillo-Methodian mission was that the Moravian princes failed to take advantage of the extremely important cultural weapon they were offered. Having adopted Christianity [offered by the Greeks] they were angered to realize that they had chosen the wrong rite. The Moravians banished the Slavic missionaries and exchanged their "inferior" rite for the Latin faith. . . . .
    The second half of the ninth century was also to be of basic importance for Eastern Europe, for during that time Kiev and the area of the present-day Ukraine entered the realm of history. The impetus for this development was the emergence of Constantinople as the economic capital of Eurasia. . . . Naturally, Constantinople then won the attention of the "vikings," the only society in Eurasia apart from Byzantium and the Arabs which maintained naval fleets during the ninth and tenth centuries. . . .
    Soon after the Rus military encounter in Constantinople in 860, the famous "Route from the Varangians to the Greeks" came into being. The Dnieper River replaced the Volga, and Kiev, the former Khazarian garrison point on the Dnieper ford, emerged in the second hlaf of the tenth century as a promising satellite of the new economic capital of the world, Constantinople. Around 930, Igor of the Volga Rus Khagan dynasty conquered Kiev.
    There are at least three periods in the history of the Khagans of Rus: the Volga stage (c. 839-930), the Dnieper stage (c. 930-1036), and the Kievan stage (1036-1169). During the first two, the Rus ruled over peoples rather than specific territories. They eliminated competitors when necessary, extracted tributes, and controlled the . . . trade routes. . . . The third, or Kievan stage marked the beginning of the cultural consolidation of Rus and an attempt at their nationalization. During the first two, the Rus' ruled over peoples rather than specific territories. They eliminated competitors when necessary, extracted tributes, and controlled the marketplaces along the following two main international routes: 1) the Volga and Dvina trade routes, important during the ninth and the first half of the tenth centuryies, with their two branches of Islamic-centered commerce, the Bulgar and the Itil; and 2) the Dnieper trade route of the tenth century from the Varangians through Kiev to Greek Constantinople, then the center of international economy. The third, or Kievan stage marked the beginning of the cultural consolidation of Rus' and an attempt at their nationalization.
    After 1036 the Kievan ruler Yaroslav routed the Pechenegs and established his own version of the Roman empire, centered now at St. Sophia at Kiev. He adopted Church Slavonic [which had been abandoned by European Slavs] as the realm's sacred language.
    Yaroslav also began the transformation of Rus' into a territorial community consisting of the lands of Kiev, Chernigov, and Pereiaslavl. The terms "Rus" and "Russkaia zemlia" (Rus land) then appeared in the second half of the eleventh century and beginning of the twelfth century with the new specific meaning of Southern Rus' (the Ukraine of today). Only now, during this time, did a cultural revolution take place. Transformed from a multiethnic, multilingual, and nonterritorial community with a "low" culture, Kievan Rus' was endowed with a new "high" culture based on a foreign, written, and sanctified Slavic language (traditionally known as Church Slavonic) and as a result appeared on the stage of East European history . . . Up to that time the Rus' were only the foreign ruling class based on a primitive organization of [transient merchants] who periodically collected taxes for their prince but were not connected with any territory. . . . SOURCE:The Origin of "Rus"
    by Omeljan Pritsak
    The Russian Review (July 1977), 249-273 (abridged).


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  7. #27

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Hi guys and thanks for the work done.
    Russian Khanate - hypothetical public education led by rusami in the IX century, chronologically preceded the Kievan Rus. In a number of sources IX century ruler of the Rus called Hagan (Hakan).
    On the home page of fashion that you will be contacted Kievan Rus', but the Kievan Rus and the Russian Khanate are two different things.Yes, and why, then, units like the Scandinavians, not nomads?

  8. #28

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Any pupil in russia knows that there wasn't khaganate! There was "knyaz" and name of state "knyazhestvo" or it could be better just "Kievan Rus" but please not khaganate it hits my russian ear!

  9. #29

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Quote Originally Posted by komatozz911 View Post
    Any pupil in russia knows that there wasn't khaganate! There was "knyaz" and name of state "knyazhestvo" or it could be better just "Kievan Rus" but please not khaganate it hits my russian ear!
    I agree with you.

  10. #30
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Did you read the article I provided did you post your sources to say there was never a Rus Khaganate ? No! You just critised. the work done by the researches here, posted in good faith. I am sorry but Russian history until recently denied any Norse involvement at all.


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  11. #31
    Perun74's Avatar Foederatus
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Kievan Rus' Khaganate??? Comon guys, are you kiddin' me? This is unacceptable. Wiki is a historical source for you???
    Oh my God, and Jesus Christ, and Holy Sh..t etc - I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!

  12. #32

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    I didnt posted sourses here, so what? I mostly use books to get informations, its more accuracy sourses, in russian books i never read about khagans in kiev))) if some foreign sourses named Kievan Rus "khaganate" its not base to call it like this....

  13. #33
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    So say which books, which author etc. and you do not need to be Russian to be an authority on eastern Europe in the early middle ages.


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  14. #34

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Great work TGC team!!!Very nice preview!
    And to those that don't believe this "khaganate" thing:I believe in the TGC team because as I saw it from their other previews they are well documanted.Also Wikipedia is actually a very good sorce of information and is quite accurate no matter what some people think.I always use wikipedia for information gathering and still I din't read any wrong things thare weather I search there about history or about farmaceutical medicines.Weather you believe it is your business,but Wikipedia IS ACCURATE.

    On a side note:I know two more country(it's nation) that dosen't really know its origin and history(or just don't want to recognise it).I won't name them for obvious reasons.





    <p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/23.jpg></a></p>

  15. #35
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    I like the fact that one of our factions opened such a discusion.
    I am not a "Russian" history expert but i want to mention some points.
    1st:
    What we call today Russia has nothing to do with the original Rus of that time. I explain mt self...
    Rus -the swedish vikings-created a state in Kiev and Romans (byzantines) made the 1st Russian Patriarchee in Kiev.
    Its true -as Constantius mentions in his post- that from a point ,the population majority of slavs overcomed the limited in numbers Vikings.
    But...Rus in middle ages were the VIKINGS and not the slavs.
    That is why it was easy for other Norse warriors to join the varangian guard searing the same warfare style and having similar cultural traditions.
    What we know today as Russia is a political hybrid creation of Peter the Great and nothing more.
    I explain my self...
    Peter tried to replace the legitimate Patriarchee of Kiev and the ONLY real Patriarch (Kiev) of all Russians with the archbishop of a small vilage known as Moscow. That was an ilegal action but it was not the only one.
    He replaced the black imperial eagle that Vladimir I (as brother in law with the Roman Emperor had the right to use/the banner looked more or less like the Austrian imperial eagle or the modern Albanian flag) with the Golden one that was rightfully was of the Roman Emperor ONLY.
    He renamed Moscow "The 3d Rome" and tried to become the ultimate ruller of all Orthodox.
    The Orthodox Church was forced to recognise that ilegal Patriarch as hope of a help for Orthodox populations against the Ottoman Empire.
    But..when "Rus" selebrated the 1000 years of Orthodoxy that celebration was AT Kiev and NOT Moscow as Kiev still is the 1st-IN LINE- Patriarchee among the Russians!
    About the terms Khagan and Khaganate.
    Just like in religion matters ,politics often require some versions of real history that focus in the "nation's purity".
    But in real life no nation today -or even back then- is "pure"!
    It seams that a choice of Steppe titles and administration system was a logical choice of the Rus as they settled in areas that the majority of the local populations were used in those.
    So the name is a minor issue for a ruler inorder to keep his reign and public order in his favor.
    Remember that Arabs when they conquered the former Roman lands in 6th century did not change the taxation and administration systems!
    They did not even change the state clerks!!
    But we must not exclude the steppe influence ...See 11th and 12th century high class warriors. They use a mix of Viking,Khazar and Roman weaponry and equipment. So the steppe people had a huge impact in Rus culture and afcourse they DID NOT simply disapear when they were conquered!
    But "Russian" history -just like nationalistic histories of 99.9% of nations- seam to forget some of the cultures and people that created the finall result. A nation's history that claimed that was the "3d Rome" had to hide the fact that its people are a mix of Viking,Slavic and Steppe ones.
    Remember that when politics needed a change "Russians" used terms and administration style from the Romans (byzantines).
    Tzar is a version of Ceasar. Then why is strange that before "Ceasar" Rus used the "Khagan" title? Both titles are foreign to them.
    But we must face history separated from politics and learn what Thoukidides wrote "
    History is cruel. The facts can not be changed and the researcher must focus on the facts and try to stay away from rumers.
    An other axample of "nationalistic" history that has to do with Byzantines and Greeks.
    In the Greek history books ,Greek pupils learn that Asia Minor was lost in Matzikert in 1071AD.
    But this is not true:
    Alp Arslan: "What would you do if I were brought before you as a prisoner?"
    Romanus: "Perhaps I'd kill you, or exhibit you in the streets of Constantinople."
    Alp Arslan: "My punishment is far heavier. I forgive you, and set you free."
    Conversation of byzantine emperor Romanus IV Diogenes and Alp Arslan,1071 AD
    Arp Aslan made a pact with the Roman Emperor that kept the borders intact! In fact he gave the Emperor 400 horsemen as escort!
    But the Greek history books had to find an enemy outside the Greeks!
    They avoid to write that between 1072 and 1073 the Empire had a civil war and the throne rival and treator arrested and blinded the Emperor and dismised almost all armies exept mercenaries!!!
    Greeks should not be the cause of the land loss and then they should create a "demon" in their eyes.
    Conclusion.
    National history often hides facts from the subjects for political reasons.
    But history is not politics ...politics are history.
    We must have our eyes and our minds open to learn and evaluate ussing logic.
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 06, 2012 at 08:26 AM.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  16. #36
    cedric37's Avatar Why Not ?!
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    I've faith in TGC team, and awesome preview guys !!
    Patronized by y2day/Patron of KDK, Swagger & Navajo Joe, of the Imperial House of Hader



  17. #37
    mayotte's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Great preview guys congratulate

  18. #38
    Blackhawk!'s Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Nice! More units!!

    DOMINION OF THE SWORD - researcher
    THE LAST KINGDOM - beta tester
    "Neprzatel se nelekayte, na mnozstwie nehleďte"

  19. #39

    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Only one piont - in russian chronicles rulers of russia called "knyaz" (Anthonius you wrote a lot, but its just from other themes, i didnt discuss about norman theory of becoming russian state etc) not khagane, and state its "knyazhestvo" not khaganate, why in mod its named like this??? can anybody named me one of rus khagane? Oleg or Ingvarr? They are "knayz" ore may be Askold and Dir))) or Svyatoslav??? its impossible!

  20. #40
    alkis6's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: [Preview] The Kievan Rus' Khaganate

    Those horses are great!!

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