[Preview] The Kievan Rus'

[Heathen Storm]

Here is a link to an article that might be of interest to anyone viewing this thread
http://shmm.academia.edu/CharlotteHe...Birka_Warriors

That is a REALLY great article! +Rep! I'm adding it to the original post

[Constantius]

Thanks glad you enjoyed it

[Rinan]

This is definitely one of the most promising mods out there for Medieval 2. I remember when I first came across this mod maybe one or two years ago and didn't find it looking interesting, focusing on eastern europa a lot and all. But after some previews I'm amazed by the quality and more interested in the region. Can't wait to play the Kievs, or the Romans, or Kretans or the Germans, etc. etc.!

[EP!anastasi]

Great work guys! I'll search for some "victims" to rep

.......
Conclusion.
National history often hides facts from the subjects for political reasons.
But history is not politics ...politics are history.
We must have our eyes and our minds open to learn and evaluate ussing logic.

Great post man!

[AnthoniusII]

God i love how TGC's team is so close to history.
Notice not only the history of Rus as we described it but in the 3rd video notice the description of "Byzantines".
Enjoy!
To all Orthodox people Happy Easter.

[Constantius]

Καλό Πάσχα -Happy Easter

[Zuzya]

OMG, guys. "Kievan Rus' Khaganate" sounds like "English Caliphate" - it's only one of theories that need to show us like asian barbarians. There is many theories - variagian, slavic. Why turkic? And name of units turkic, not slavic. WTF?

[Constantius]

Try reading all the other posts, before ranting! No theory claims the Rus were of Asiatic decent, but rather adopted the power structure early on of their powerful neighbours the Khazar Khaganate, later with increased contact with the Bulgarian and especially the Romans (Byzantine) empires, they adopted a structure that mirrored that of Konstantinoupolis

[Zuzya]

Constantius
In all your sources only indirect data. We haven't any info about Rus' before Rurik. Khaganate - only hypothetical country, or you have 100% authentic info about khaganate? In your proofs in 1st post only speculation.

[Constantius]

As I said they are theories

[Scolot]

Ok let me intervene in this . Now furst - The privew is great and unbelievable and fantastic .Rep +
Now about the history issue : I don't pretend that i know history of Dark Age Rus lands .But TGC'team you should have in maind that history resurch is not making only based on foreign sources and view of some western popular books made by Western enthusiasts that are not very awear with history of Eastern Europe (i am talking of Jean Heath and other like him that make quite alot mistakes and ignore the resurch of the local archaeologists and historians ).You should chek the archaeological resurch from this lands and also the written sources and inscriptions from Rus land from the era and then make conclusion .As much as i know in rus medieval chronicals the old rus lords are great princes (knqze) and Kievun Rus was kniajesvto(княжество)princedom .The Khaganate is only a theory and not secure at all .

+ rep

TGC is quite open to corrections and critique. but this is not even close to constructive critique.

Ok. Let me try.
I'm Russian. I'm fond of history, esp. history of early Slavs and early Rus'.
And in the best of my opportunities and (most importantly) free time, I'm ready to engage in dialogue with constructive arguments.

1) Rus' Khaganate and Kievan Rus'.

wikipedia is a source anyone can access and scrutinise, furthermore it is quoted with further sources(often books...).
an unknown book by some unknown author with uncertain credibility is simply an empty argument void of substance.

Even Wiki says "A predecessor to the Rurik Dynasty and the Kievan Rus', the Rus' Khaganate was a state...."
Rus' Khaganate (8th-9th) and Kievan Rus' (9th-12th) are different state formations. Moreover, your mod timeframe clearly falls into the time limits of Kievan Rus', not Khaganate. And actually I do not understand why you're arguing about that.

2) Due to "so called" Normanist theory the Rus' were really of scandinavian origin.
But you are seriously mistaken if you think that Rus' that сame from the North of Russian Plain to Kiev were scandinavians. They were Rus', not Scandinavians, not Slavs. They were representatives of the social and cultural formation that is used to know Rus' - mix of Slavs, Scandinavians, Finno-ugric people and maybe Balts. And Kievan Rus' (people) were from that Rus' environment (formed from mix at the North of Russian Plain), not from Scandinavian environment. First of all, this is confirmed by archaeological evidence. No any archaeological site (of completely Scandinavian origin) in the Middle Dnieper. Only archaeological founds (from NOT COMPLETELY scandinavian) burials. Moreover, archeology is "silent" on founds of Scandinavian origin before the beginning of the 10th century in this area.

The russian review (July 1977), by Omelyan Pritsak

In the scientific community of Russia, this author is known for his antagonism (if not more) to all the Slavic... And 1977 An investigation of early Rus' issue has stepped far forward from that 1977. But unfortunately very little translated articles of modern scholars (basically, Ukranian and Russian) are presented at the West.

3) Mythology or Rus'
As far as I remember the only gods of early Rus' mentioned in historical chronicles are Perun and Veles. (It is interesting to mention that Perun is likely not of local - East Slavic origin. Some scholars see here a trace of Polabian Slavs and/or Balts. For these people that God has ever witnessed, for the eastern Slavs - not once. But only with Rus'.)
Thor, Odin, Freyr ....... Guys! What about you are?! I know, they are scandinavians deities. But what about Rus' I think you have given in full roam your fantasies here

4) "Varjazi" is an east european term/analogue of western "Vikings".

5) "huskarlar" in Rus' druzhina??? Bronist'tsi, bogmenn???
Guys! I guess it really would be a great idea if you familiar with the research of Rus' warcraft. In the vastness of TW forum this issue is discussed inside and out. Do you need any links?

P.S. I saw here some remarks about nationalism.
Too often on this forum I met another form of nationalism. When some guys totally undefended stated an inability to create a state by Slavs, that Kievan Rus' was created by the Normans from Scandinavia (where, incidentally, the state came later than the Kievan Rus') etc.
Please, be more tolerant to each other. Thank you.

Ok let me intervene in this . Now furst - The privew is great and unbelievable and fantastic .Rep +
.As much as i know in rus medieval chronicals the old rus lords are great princes (knqze) and Kievun Rus was kniajesvto(княжество)princedom .The Khaganate is only a theory and not secure at all .

Yes, you're right. But the title "Khagan" in relation to the supreme ruler of the eastern Slavs is mentioned several times. The last mention of the 11th century (with respect to Yaroslav the Wise).

[AnthoniusII]

Have you saw the documentary couple of posts above?
Modern Russian historians say that Rus were sweedish not us.
We have read several historian projects that stated what our researchers put in the preview.
Some admit them-in the historical society-as true and others as false.
Is not our job to deside who is right and who is wrong.
But see that modern Russians seem to forget that exept slavic tribes in the same region lived steppe ones too.
But "steppe" had to disapear from the common history just like Sweedish under the rule of Peter the Great.
Everything that could "remind" to the new russians that were NOT only slavs should be disapear.
Steppe people considered as inferior and Sweeden was a great enemy.
For centuries "modern russians" ignored that Kiev Patriarch was the real patriarch of all russians and that Moscow became a patriarchee only under the orders of Peter the Great.
When Kievans said that the real patriarche was in kiev many russians (including russian clerics) accused them as liers..
But history is cruel my friend. It ussualy does not permit us to live in myths for a long time.
So yes..Rus-as the great Khan's of Khazars vassals according to diplomatic letters that found in Constantinople-could adopt "steppe" kind of administration inorder to repeat the Khazars domination on slavic tribes. It seemed the most secure way. Slavs recognised titles and laws of steppe people that dominated them and Rus came with this purpose ...to dominate on Slavs.
Afcourse they would never imagine that being so few they would be asimilated in the huge slavic population.

[Zuzya]

AnthoniusII
Another speculation.

[Constantius]

But as you say we do not have written evidence, so all we can do is speculate, or make educated guesses- obviously the Russian primary chronicle was written approx 250 years later( please correct me if I am wrong) and only gives us foundation myths- not hard facts!

As for the poster who considers westerners oblivious to real history and culture of eastern Europe- I can only say, I personally try too read Slavic and Greek in original- it is hard work, but I try as do many historians and archaeologists, this is not the cold war! there is no reason what so ever to draw a east/ west on history.
I know of course that Bulgaria- produces more Bulgarian specialists and Russian hers etc But that does not mean there cannot be specialist in any eastern European country from the 'west' !

PS: I do admit I am out of my depth, on this subject- I like to think of myself as more of a Classical/late antique Roman specialist- I was merely attempting to add to the debate, as best as I could in a impartial way

[Scolot]

AnthoniusII

Modern Russian historians say that Rus were sweedish not us.

First of all, modern russian/ukranian historians havn’t come to a consensus yet. So you’re not absolutely correct here
Secondly, as I said before, due to Normanists theory, the Rus’ of Kiev were not Norse, and they were not Slavs. They were Rus’, my friend.

But see that modern Russians seem to forget that exept slavic tribes in the same region lived steppe ones too.

But all Russian historians claim that east Slavs have been significantly influenced by nomadic culture!

So yes..Rus-as the great Khan's of Khazars vassals according to diplomatic letters

Maybe I missed something, but can you refer to the author that claim, that Rus’ of Kiev were the vassals of “Khan's of Khazars”. I think you confused something.

could adopt "steppe" kind of administration inorder to repeat the Khazars domination on slavic tribes. It seemed the most secure way. Slavs recognised titles and laws of steppe people that dominated them and Rus came with this purpose ...to dominate on Slavs.

This allegation is not supported by anything other than your speculation or speculation of O.Pritsak.
East Slavs paid tribute to Khazars from the middle of 9th to the beginning of 10th (knyaz Oleg times). Do you really guess that during that short timeframe Slavs forget their title ‘knyaz’ and their laws???
And one more. Can you imagine that the brave and invincible Vikings came to Kiev and call their ruler as Khagan, not Konung!?

Constantius

But as you say we do not have written evidence, so all we can do is speculate, or make educated guesses- obviously the Russian primary chronicle was written approx 250 years later( please correct me if I am wrong) and only gives us foundation myths- not hard facts!

Yes, in some ways you're right. Written evidence about East Europe of 7th-8th are very few.
But we don’t have only written evidence. Also we have archeological and linguistic evidences, my friend.
And TGC-team hypothesis about Rus’ Khaganate run counter to these evidences. This is more than obvious. Therefore, in this thread you have heard so much criticism.


Please let me show you one example. Look at military&administrative lexicon of Old East Slavic:
knyaz (князь)
voevoda (воевода) – war leader, general
druzhina (дружина) – knyaz retinue
polyudye (полюдье) - detour of dependent tribes to collect tribute
veche (вече) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veche
Khagan (каган) nomad loanword
Boyar (боярин) nomad loanword -
gridin (гридин) Norse loanword – knyaz bodyguard
tiun (тиун) Norse loanword – knyaz or boyar administrator
posadnik (посадник) - governor
tysyatsky (тысяцкий) – commander of ten hundreds warriors (usually of town levy)
sotnik (сотник) – commander of one hundred warriors (like roman centurion)
voi (вои) - warriors
opolchenie (ополчение) - levy
etc.
Most of the words of military&administrative lexicon of Old East Slavic are of Slavic origin. And it is very strange if it is claimed that Norsemen ruled over Slavs. If it was like that, we would see another situation: Housecarls, Leidang, Hird, konung etc. But where this words in Old Russian? They don’t exist at all!
About Rus’ deities a said before. No Thor, no Odin etc.

As for the poster who considers westerners oblivious to real history and culture of eastern Europe- I can only say, I personally try too read Slavic and Greek in original- it is hard work, but I try as do many historians and archaeologists, this is not the cold war! there is no reason what so ever to draw a east/ west on history.

Sorry, but as I can see, you’ve read O.Pritsak’s works only. His point of view on the problem of the Rus’ origin is very unique and isn’t accepted any modern russian/ukranian scientists and researchers. Even soviet and russian Normanists (Melnikova, Lebedev, Danilevsky, Novoseltsev, Tolochko etc.) didn’t share his point of view. Moreover, he wrote his works while abroad (having moved there during the Second World War), and he didn’t have access to the works of Soviet scientists, which had the best opportunities to investigate and research.
If you can read Russian, please, read this article (http://ukrstor.com/ukrstor/tolocko-puti-2-06.html) of Tolochko P.P.
He is archaeologist, historian, Professor (1988), academician of National Academy of Sciences of Ukraine (18.05.1990), the director of the Institute of Archaeology of NAS of Ukraine, MP III (1998-2002) and IV (2002-2006) convocations, a member of the Academy of European and International Union of Slavic archeology, the State Prize of Ukraine in the field of science and technology.
In this article, Tolochko did not even question the conclusions of Pritsak. He simply points the places in the works Pritsak, where Pritsak:
1) completely ignores the generally accepted facts
2) make bold conclusions without backing up their links to other researchers. Or he makes reference sample, while ignoring the majority of researchers.

But that does not mean there cannot be specialist in any eastern European country from the 'west' !

Western scientists have the worst opportunities than Soviet or Russian/Ukranian researchers. Or they refer to the earlier works of scientists (generally of Soviet period), rather than later (because later works of russian/ukranian hasn’t translated yet).

PS: Some links where this subject was discussed on TWC:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...29#post8725229
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...13#post8717113
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...49#post8750049
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...86#post8768086

I’ll try to find English sources of modern Russian/ukranian historians if it is really interesting to TGC modders/researchers

[Heathen Storm]

Hmm I suppose I do have an overwhelming amount of Norse deities to Slavic deities... will add some more later sometime.

@Scolot sorry that this is not detailed, especially as detailed as your post was, but; whatever sources you have disproving or falsifying anything I (and team) have researched and posted, then please post them.

[NikeBG]

And remember that in-game the faction has always been simply "Kievan Rus". So this all has been much ado for nothing, IMO. Though, yes, a bit less accent on the Norse wouldn't be a bad idea.

P.S. Scolot, since I see you're a knowledgeable guy, a bit off-topic question - do you know of the so-called "Jagfar Tarihi" and what do you think of it (modern fake or needs further research)?

[Heathen Storm]

Updated slightly, hopefully it will put both sides of the argument at ease.

[AlphaDelta]

Please let me show you one example. Look at military&administrative lexicon of Old East Slavic:
knyaz (князь)
voevoda (воевода) – war leader, general
druzhina (дружина) – knyaz retinue
polyudye (полюдье) - detour of dependent tribes to collect tribute
veche (вече) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veche
Khagan (каган) nomad loanword
Boyar (боярин) nomad loanword -
gridin (гридин) Norse loanword – knyaz bodyguard
tiun (тиун) Norse loanword – knyaz or boyar administrator
posadnik (посадник) - governor
tysyatsky (тысяцкий) – commander of ten hundreds warriors (usually of town levy)
sotnik (сотник) – commander of one hundred warriors (like roman centurion)
voi (вои) - warriors
opolchenie (ополчение) - levy
etc.
Most of the words of military&administrative lexicon of Old East Slavic are of Slavic origin. And it is very strange if it is claimed that Norsemen ruled over Slavs. If it was like that, we would see another situation: Housecarls, Leidang, Hird, konung etc. But where this words in Old Russian? They don’t exist at all!

Yes and no. It all depends upon whether the Rus invaded and controlled from afar or simply settled and intermingled with the local population. The Norsemen that settled in Northern France, married Frankish women and had children that spoke French. The Norse military terms weren't handed down, and it's obvious the same happened in Russia with Viking men marrying Slavic women and having children that predominantly speak Slavic due to it being their mother tongue and the surrounding language.

The Norman's are an interesting case study as while they themselves didn't learn much Norse from their fathers they did spread a lot of French into England, and that's probably because they didn't breed with the local population quite so much. They maintained their social structure and they dominated the military. The plantagenet's therefore spoke French for generations and their military words became a part of the modern English language.

There's also the question of contact. If the Rus vikings were out of contact with their homeland's, then over the following generations they would have lost their native language much more rapidly than the Normans who still had a firm grip on Northern France.

Its' an incredibly interesting topic and the units are fanstastic. This mod is now my number 2 most anticipated mod (after EB II). Please give it to me? lol

Cheers

[Heathen Storm]

There's also the question of contact. If the Rus vikings were out of contact with their homeland's, then over the following generations they would have lost their native language much more rapidly than the Normans who still had a firm grip on Northern France.

Thanks for your kind words mate. Actually in Novgorod (the original capital of the Rus' kingdom) documents have been found in Old Norse that dated all the way to the 12th and 13th century. So I'd say it's certainly plausible for Norse terms to stick around. But you made some very good points mate and thank you again for your words

-Heathen