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Thread: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

  1. #1

    Default Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Looking forward to the new version, got some questions.

    Will some existing factional units get overhauled/changed?
    Visually
    , some were masterpieces to look at... some were clearly not. I hope they get an update. I can point out some specifics if you want.

    Balance wise, spearmen tend to be useless against charging cavalry - that kind of defeats the idea of spears. The only way to fight lancers was to stop them somehow, then move in spearmen - or counter charge them with cavalry of your own.
    I liked the idea that there is a significant upkeep difference between levies and elites, but some elites cost too much. It just doesn't pay off to have them. In my current Roman campaign for example, I use Kontratoi pikemen (who are definitely not the strongest unit out there) because they get the job done and I can have a lot of them for the price of 1 cavalry unit. Lol, kind of like Imperial Stormtroopers from Star Wars

    All in all, I am having great fun with the mod and I look forward to the next version. This wasn't an ungrateful rant, I was just looking to help improve the game. I am not a modder of any sorts, and I am busy (busyish) with studying, but I would like to help out if I can. If you still need beta testers, send me a PM.


    Have a nice day!


    Rad

  2. #2

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Well in general there are some global changes in 2.4 that affect all factions. While beta testing I got the feeling that now economy is even more demanding. Forget about huge armies, those are so expensive that you will have to first build vast empire to be able to afford single field army of 20 quality units. Everything is soo expensive so you have to produce as many merchants as possible and invest into your economy to be competitive with AI. Some factions gained also own improvments, for example I saw some nice new units available for KoJ... Anyway still a lot of improvments is 'in production', Byzantineboy is working on it like a machine - he seems to be immune to tiredness. I must say that BC 2.4 is a whole new level of gameplay when compared to 2.3., but you still have to wait a bit as there are still some issues to solve.
    P.S. I'm testing on vh/vh.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    I play on VH/Vh as well, and I'm never good with money. The more ground I have, the more I have to defend and build up. It's a struggle, but I find it interesting.
    If there's something I hate, it's waiting 50+ turns to be able to afford a unit lol... I'll just have to deal with it.
    Have the units become more durable? More armor, morale, etc?

    Please tell me that units using 2hand weapons don't have shields anymore (varangians, heavy jannisaries etc) and that the jannisary infantry stopped freaking dual wielding xD
    At least give me that.

    P.S. My thanks to Byzantineboy and the rest of the team

  4. #4

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Oh, good. Feedback time!

    I like the Mod, but here are a few things that I've noticed. But first some background.

    I'm playing 3 VH/VH (although does that really matter for this mod?) as the ERE. I'm switching between them, and they are all around 150 to 250 turns in, so I'd say about mid-game.


    The Early Game:

    I like how the game does something a little different from the other mods I've played. Most of the time it starts you out with a massive amount of debt that puts you off to a slow start and forces you to avoid an extended, direct conflict with the Sultanate of Rum, who start out in a much more stable position, until you are out of debt, have invested in your economy and built of a decent military force. This mod on the other hand starts you with zero, then spawns two full rebel stacks to besiege your cities after turn 7. The first is outside Constantinople and another is outside of Luekosia. I assume this is scripted because it happened in two of the three games. In the third game a single stack spawned outside Luekosia, but none outside of Constantinople. What this forces a player to do is to either lose their largest city as well as a smaller city that serves as a staging area for attacks on Egypt and the Levant as you enter mid game--and then spend a bunch of moves trying to retake them--or over spend to create an army that the economy can't really support in anticipation of having to fight the rebels off. Either way, it does the job of unbalancing you early on so that you spend a fair amount of time playing catch up so that you can gobble up some territory before the 4th Crusade triggers.

    Mid-Game.

    Speaking of, I sort of felt like the Fourth Crusade had been nerfed. In previous additions the event spawned two full stacks outside of Constantinople which were sort of a bear to deal with, especially without a family member without the night fight ability. Now its a single stack and its too easily surrounded and dealt with.

    On the other hand I love how the new factions crowd the middle of the map around Syria, Iraq, the Caucasus and the eastern half of Iran. It provides for a wonderful measure of variety where as before it was just rebel factions or whomever had steam rolled them.

    Economic balance:

    As pointed out above its tough, and development is slow. These are not criticism and I like that the game forces me to pay attention to it. I feel like the choices I make have steaks and that if I make the wrong choice it'll cost me down the road. I appreciate the challenge and I like the idea that I could win a lot of battles but still lose because I lack the resources to proper capitalize on them.


    Diplomacy

    Its a little too forgiving in the early going. Georgia, Rum, and Armenia all extended trade right after the first move and I was able to get each of them to agree to an alliance pretty easily afterwards. It makes sense for Georgia, but the other two need to remain potential threats. Other than that it was pretty much what I expected from previous iteration of this mod, and hey, I'm still playing it, so that's a good thing.

    The Battle system:

    I didn't have the problems with balance that other people seemed to have had. My spearmen are successful, but its hard to tell if they are effective. It could just be that they are massed infantry--usually attacking with a unit or two of heavy cavalry. I haven't run any simulations.

    Otherwise the army itself is pretty successful if you use a simple Hammer and Anvil strategy--sadly no tactical manual on the Konmenian Army exists. The pikes hold the center and keep the enemy in place; swords, spears and axes work the enemy flanks; cavalry (and usually a unit or two of spearmen) destroy the enemy cavalry and then wheel to attack the enemy from the rear. Horse archer heavy armies are a problem and realistically should be. I've got no complaints here.

    The New Factions:

    I've already mention above how much I like the new Islamic factions in the middle of the map. I'll leave it to people that have played as some of them to tell you what they thought about them.

    I really like Vladamir-Suzdal. They have an interesting unit roster to fight against and pose a credible threat to the northern boarder, which is something other iterations were missing. Even then, the Volga Bulgars and the Kypcheks make sure that the whole of Russia is contested, which I like. Bottom line, the whole area of the map is better utilized.

    Old factions:

    Some of them are underpowered from previous addition, like the Ayyubids and Rum (neither of which take full advantage of their unit roster.) The Ayyubids get rolled by the KOJ, which I think is overpowered, very early. Its a shame. That Mamaluke army should really have a chance to be the what it was in prior additions. Rum on the other hand won't start making heavy infantry. I get why they don't have Heavy Ottoman infantry, or Janissarys yet, as they weren't founded until the 13th and 14th centuries, but you need something else to fill the void. I'd hate to recommend a faction overhaul, but it would be pretty cool i somebody could use what Karaislam was working on in the Rise of the Turks mod to give Rum an update.

    Finally the KOJ, which again I think is overpowered, isn't recruiting heavy cavalry. It might just be in my games. The clash of tactics and styles is part of the appeal of playing a mod from this era. Some of that is lost if we don't see any of the cornucopia of armored knights that the faction has to offer.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Thanks for the feedback!
    Until a few days ago, I played ERE on vh/vh, version 2.3.2... I remember seeing only one crusader stack. I mauled it before it had a chance to siege the city by using my more mobile cavalry filled army as the hammer under my direct command, and the infantry garrison of Constantinople as the anvil. Worked like a charm, minimal casualties, even though that one stack looked scary. Profit is nice, but the sheer number of provinces I own stops me from amassing any kind of wealth.

    Now I'm playing with Oman on VH/VH... best turtle game ever. No "mortal kombat" type wars, and I am finally very reliable lol. Oman has a good economy... after quite an effort, though. Although the fact that Aceh warriors (cheap cannon fodder) are the most cost effective units for sieges pains me, and recruiting sturdier units doesn't pay off until 50+ turns, it's still fun to play. Turn 80ish, I have good profit and I can recruit better troops. I very much like the light concept of Oman's armies - Strike fast, strike hard, pull out... no pun intended.


    My problem with spear units is that they're just as vulnerable to cavalry charges as other footmen. That shouldn't be the case, they should be able to stop a cavalry charge, at least the professional spearmen should.

    Oh... almost forgot... what about units stats and recruitment rates in 2.4? Units tougher, more plentiful?
    Last edited by Rad; August 04, 2015 at 09:45 AM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    well the Ghaznavid Spearmen roster hold the line generally well, however i do understand when the light spearmen equivalents can't hold the line, for example Aceh warriors. also you have to put into account that on very hard the AI units will get bonuses so will crash through your spearmen more than the usual.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    AI units don't get attack/defense bonuses in Med2, regardless of difficulty. That is a Rome Total War I feature.
    I do believe they get a morale bonus, not sure though.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    In addition to these changes LongJohn (another developer) says the following: The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
    On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can;t remember the exact figure).
    On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on expert its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.

    Source:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?31445-A-Beginners-Guide-to-Medieval-Total-War

  9. #9

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Lol dude, that article is a guide to Medieval 1: Total War.
    Not Medieval 2: Total War. Two very different games.

    Check the date of the post, it was written in 2003. Medieval 2 Total War was released in 2006.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohsen-199 View Post
    In addition to these changes LongJohn (another developer) says the following: The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
    On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can;t remember the exact figure).
    On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on expert its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.

    Source:
    http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?31445-A-Beginners-Guide-to-Medieval-Total-War
    Lol dude, that article is a guide to Medieval 1: Total War.
    Not Medieval 2: Total War. Two very different games.

    Check the date of the post, it was written in 2003. Medieval 2 Total War was released in 2006.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    whoops sorry i clicked that link off a Medieval 2 forum section my bad.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    No problem. As I said, there's no attack/defense bonuses to AI regardless of difficulty, so that is not the problem. Fortunately or unfortunately *no life lol*, I have thousands of hours on vh/vh game time to confirm it. I want to hear more 2.4 testers and see how the units behave now.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    RC/RR fixes a lot of the combat issues... no more invincible heavy lancers that can lazily decimate entire infantry formations, no more sucky infantry that feel like they are beating each other over the head with balloon swords etc

  14. #14

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Yea, I like the RC/RR mod, but is it comparable with 4.2?

  15. #15
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    I would just love to know if you guys have finally changed the Indian elephants...they looked absolutely stupid with modern portraits of Hindu Gods on them. The 'Om' symbol on Rajput shields was more tolerable (even if that's inaccurate too), but the elephant armours with portraits of gods on them is just....terrible.

    This was promised to be changed. Has it been?
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  16. #16

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Yes it has been

  17. #17

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Hi Guys. First time using the mod this week and I'm really enjoying it and looking forward to the new version. The difficulty was a real eye opener when I decided to go for the Iraqi Sejuks my first game who only start with one city which I built into a decent nation by using three trebuchets and attacking first turn with limited troops. However I was soon under siege by the Georgians to the north west and the Abbs to the south west who were sending full stacks which I kept beating but would soon be created again. I think I gave up after my 50th turn and decided to try my luck with the Egyptians who start off in a far better position.

    I'm quite impressed with the mod and the Egyptians are going really well for me. I'll see how far I can get them.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Has the team addressed the issue about AOR units? for example expanding the number of provinces where you can recruit faction units and not just be limited to a few crappy units? Or probably being able to recruit faction specific units in provinces that you conquer? Great job BC Team! Hats off to all of you!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    And sorry for being lazy. Can anyone give a quick recap of what 2.4 will look like?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Question about "old" factions in 2.4

    Quote Originally Posted by heavy_arms86 View Post
    And sorry for being lazy. Can anyone give a quick recap of what 2.4 will look like?
    More profit, more troop expenses, merchants are really significant for money, elite troops are great. Some troops cost more than they're worth, but don't worry, I'm CONSTANTLY COMPLAINING about it lol xD
    Building prices stay the same.
    New unit models look brilliant. So great, that they put the older units to shame and I am trying to persuade the team to update the 2.3 ones.
    That's all I can think of atm. I am mostly happy about the new version, however the damn heat is preventing me from testing the late game and smaller factions - with huge troop upkeep, they have a difficult start now.
    Last edited by Rad; August 15, 2015 at 07:50 AM.

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