improved pikemen modification, reduced radius.

[Kahvipannu]

VC, Is this aiming to make units to re-present theyr sizes better, like goblins would be harder to hit with arrows, and for example horses easier? And that units take "different ammount of space" at battlefield? Or is this something else?

[Reiksfart]

VC, Is this aiming to make units to re-present theyr sizes better, like goblins would be harder to hit with arrows, and for example horses easier? And that units take "different ammount of space" at battlefield? Or is this something else?

Balancing is the main usage for myself. So much more than just improving pikes. With so many different sized animations and models, it can be difficult to balance when using a point of reference (army books) and a formula. The 'fix' to this was exactly what I originally did not want to do; pull stats out my rear end. Now balancing is as simple as coding up the stats and testing and re-testing with radius and height to compensate animation/model size, to find the exact balance between units I was looking for. No more increasing, for example, Dual wielding Gors to 40-something attack so they can compete or beat certain state troops, as they should do, and then be too powerful against heavily armoured knights. Now it's almost perfect.

I really can't thank them enough for bringing this to light.

[Valiant Champion]

VC, Is this aiming to make units to re-present theyr sizes better, like goblins would be harder to hit with arrows, and for example horses easier? And that units take "different ammount of space" at battlefield? Or is this something else?

if the total square area of the unit relative to its target size for projectiles is not for certian but obviously seems to make for a good hypothesis. We do know so long as either projectile or target has radius than hits are made.

total square area for pikes that are fixed with 0.25, 2.5 radius and height will have within a few hundreths of the same square area as default. .5 diameter x2.5 = 1.25 compared to 0.8 x 1.7 = 1.36.

[paradamed]

Ok I have tested this and it really works. I cant tell much about the change in behaviour and formations but those numbers really change how a unit gets damaged. Increasing it really made them easier targets while decreasing the height made them harder to hit with much less casualties. This is fantastic. It really is some kind of hidden atribute we werent aware of.

[alexgold]

to what testing i've done i can see that for me the AI keeps messing the phalanx formation as it is. for example the AI changes the direction of the unit at exactly the moment of impact with another infantry unit(not phalanx). and another thing is that the phalanx formation tends to shrink in width during combat.


for example i start a battle and i give the AI 4 pike units i i take 4 heavy inf units and start combat. i let the ai come to me and at about 100 m from my line the phalanx units shrink their formation, if they had 4 rows of soldiers not they go to 6 or 8. this is related to a bug that orders the AI pikes to go a long distance behind my troops. and as you all know m2tw as opposed to rtw has this "thing" that makes units turn from lines into columns as you give the a march order across a great distance. so i think that if we could solve this problem, the one that makes units turn into columns from lines, pikes would be better improved.

also i strongly recomend that all pike units have a radius of 0 and a height that makes the ballance (not allowing them to be overpowered) and more important a number of rows of 4 and a number of men 100 (250 on a huge unit scale) that way youll get a mauler company with 4 rows of men pointing pikes (well actualy only 2 of the 4 rows do that but because theyre all packed up tightly they look as there are 4 rows)

also i think that a must have for pikes is the animation tweak that makes them march with their pickes lowered instead of them pointing upwards.

ok, now from another point of view, make a simple test make a piek unit of 2 rows of men and then make a fight with them you'll see that both ranks of men start to push forward as you give them the order to attack and then at the moment when the second rank overpases the first one the phalanx turns its back and points the pickes backwards.
these are the things thet i've found and want to share them with other moders that want to take pike units researck further. t's not a solution but a step forward to one.

so: 1) fix the bug from lines o columns
2) find the height and radius depending on how the modder wants its phalanxes to perform
3) get the right animation
three steps to the ultimate phalanx

[Pietrak]

The AI has the problem that it never keeps an orderly battle-line. There is always a big mess there :/

[alexgold]

that's right that is another problem. from the way i see it removing that thing that makes lines turn into columns at march will be grat for all mods. anyway i think i've got the formula to find the height for a given radius: try this when calculating what height to use to balance the radius that you want for the unit.

0.4*1.7=radius*height so for a radius of 0.2 let's say=> 0.4*1.7=0.2*x=> x=2*1.7=3.4 and the balance should be the same but still use the advantages of a smaller radius. for a radius of 0.3 use a height of 2.26
for a radius of 0.1 use a height of 6.8 and for a radius of 0 use a height of infinite)) so whatever u do using a radiuss of 0 will mean that whatever height u use u can't strike a balance. and there is the other problem whether the game uses height values over a certain number... anyway use my formula and test the results and please give me a feedback because i don't have time right now to do the testing myself.

[alexgold]

from my point o view there are 2 directions from where the problems keep pooping up with pikes:
a) internal mechanics of phalanx
b) AI making a mess of them

this is how i think solutions should look like:

a)internal mechanics solutions:
after interpreting the results of all tests done by me and some that VC has done i've come to the conclusion that the best phalanx should have :
1) an animation in which it walks with the pikes lowered (similar to the ones in SS and TATW)
2) special blocks in descr_formations_ai.txt based on VC's idea of adding default_melee_state defend, and also i recomend that pikes have their own blocks so that when meddling with the unit radius/spacing we can adjust the max_unit and min_unit here so that we won't have a tightly packed phalanx with a width of a quarter of the normal width of a infantry unit
3) radius of 0.1 and height of 6.8 if this doesn't work then a radius of 0.2 and a height of 3.4.
4) unit spacing of the same distance of the unit radius so it will be either 0.2 or 0.1 ( i think less wolud also work because the computer doesn't use a distance smaller than the units radius) and a spacing front to back of 1.8 to 2.0
5) for me a number of men of 100 and a number of rows of 4 (what i mean of 100 units turns into a huge unit sclae into 250)
6) small defence and attack as it is, i recomend u erase the defence factor associated to the units defence skill(the second number) leave onlt the armor factor.
7) pike units can either have a secondary or not. i find that if the unit has 100 units and a spacing 0f 1.8 and a radius of 0.1 and a number of 3.5 to 4 rows then it makes sense that the unit can get a secondary, because even though the first row will switch to swords the second row will do all the kiling and not make a mess of itself because it is so tightly packed.
if the unit doesn't have secondary weapons then you can still implement all these things here and you'll get a phalanx that stops turning when in a fight and mauls everyone in the process ))
* 8) unfortunately halberd units don't switch to secondary weapons if u mess with the radius and height but it's not sure i'll further test it.
*9) i'll give a radius of 0 to fire_by_rank missiles and see how they behave and tell u about it.

b) AI making a fool of itself with pikes. well i think hat the ai is stupid whatever u do about it so, because CA has implemented a lot of stuff in this game that they haven't properly tested basicaly this game i think was made so that us modders can do the testing for them. anyway, the only solution that i see for this problem is that we fix whatever can be fixed and remove the rest.
1) remove the thing that makes unit formations turn into columns. this is a real mess for pikes as they reduce their width just in front of your charging infantry this makes less men use thir pikes and the formation is prone to being slaughtered. i think it has something to do with descr_fformations.txt there's a block there that's used for units in march but i can't sort it out further testing may help.
2) darth vader has found that if u modify the charge of a unit and the attack_delay then it's fighting in the army will be improved. from ym testing i can say that the charge stuff doesn't work, so there's no point in modifying it. however modifying the attack_delay to values between -450000 and 5000 may help although i haven't thoroughly testes it, i'll post the thread where darth varder said all these things.
this has a influence on unit cohesion so maybe it will make the AI keep all pikes in one line rather than use them as mobile spear units or heavy inf(as he does now).

if i've missed a point please let me know as because i don't have time to do the testing myself and i've reached a favorable compromise for my own mod my i thought that it would be a waste if i kept all the things that i've found out so far for myself. i strongly think that if u keep into these problems when you do your testing you'll get a great phalanx and the comunity will surely fix the pike bug once and for all.

i'll post other findings wen i do find them)

also VC discovered that seting untrained at the morale of a pike unit has some beneficial consequences, he sent me a PM with this but i haven't tryed it so far.

[Valiant Champion]

untrained makes the formation resemble one that has 4 or 5 ranks with their pikes lowered.

a few more changes made such as mass 4 and attack 13 to the op. I was using these stats already in my personal version of the game so I carried them over for testing.

mass is important for any spear unit. as it helps them absorb an enemy charge without sustaining mass related casualties. This type of damage is especially evident with pikes as you can sometimes see some fall dead even though the enemy only hit their pikes. The reason why kingdoms increased spearmen and pike mass to fix it.

attack is simply allowing them to work as an offensive weapon. In Kingdoms and vanilla those pikemen considered to be offensive units (swiss and aventuros) instead of defensive units always had a high primary attack value. In vanilla swiss pikemen had an attack of 16.

[alexgold]

that's right that is another problem. from the way i see it removing that thing that makes lines turn into columns at march will be grat for all mods. anyway i think i've got the formula to find the height for a given radius: try this when calculating what height to use to balance the radius that you want for the unit.

0.4*1.7=radius*height so for a radius of 0.2 let's say=> 0.4*1.7=0.2*x=> x=2*1.7=3.4 and the balance should be the same but still use the advantages of a smaller radius. for a radius of 0.3 use a height of 2.26
for a radius of 0.1 use a height of 6.8 and for a radius of 0 use a height of infinite)) so whatever u do using a radiuss of 0 will mean that whatever height u use u can't strike a balance. and there is the other problem whether the game uses height values over a certain number... anyway use my formula and test the results and please give me a feedback because i don't have time right now to do the testing myself.

try this formula for balancing

[Leonidas480bc]

VC i am posting these as a real guideline to unit spacing to be used as reference. In Polybius’s eighteenth book chapter 28-32 he talks about the roman and Macedonian soldiers in formation and the space taken up by each. He states that each Roman in open order requires 48 cm.(18.9 in) as personal space and 71 cm.(28 in) on his right and left side to properly use his gladius and scutum or a diameter of 96 cm.(37.8 in) in every direction . The Macedonian phalangite on the other hand occupies a space of 48 cn.(18.9 in) With approximately 24 cm.(9.4 in) on either his right or left side for fighting space, with a depth of 96 cm.(37.8 in) from front to back, So a Roman in open will require 192 cm.(6.3ft) of frontal space to fight where as the Macedonian only requires 96 cm.(3.15 ft) This means each Roman will have to face two phalangites frontally and the four others behind them for a total of ten sarissa. This is because the length of the sarissa was fourteen to sixteen cubits in length. Allowing ten to 12 cubits(480-576 cm. 15.75-18.9 feet) to project forward and engage the enemy. The remaining four to six cubits of the sarrisa were used in holding it as well as acting as a counter weight. Hoplites required only 48 cn.(18.9 in). For all sword and shield units they should start out in this open order formation with the option to change to a closed "Defensive" formation offering increased protection at the cost of offensive capability. So the question is how do we mod this?

[Valiant Champion]

VC i am posting these as a real guideline to unit spacing to be used as reference. In Polybius’s eighteenth book chapter 28-32 he talks about the roman and Macedonian soldiers in formation and the space taken up by each. He states that each Roman in open order requires 48 cm.(18.9 in) as personal space and 71 cm.(28 in) on his right and left side to properly use his gladius and scutum or a diameter of 96 cm.(37.8 in) in every direction . The Macedonian phalangite on the other hand occupies a space of 48 cn.(18.9 in) With approximately 24 cm.(9.4 in) on either his right or left side for fighting space, with a depth of 96 cm.(37.8 in) from front to back, So a Roman in open will require 192 cm.(6.3ft) of frontal space to fight where as the Macedonian only requires 96 cm.(3.15 ft) This means each Roman will have to face two phalangites frontally and the four others behind them for a total of ten sarissa. This is because the length of the sarissa was fourteen to sixteen cubits in length. Allowing ten to 12 cubits(480-576 cm. 15.75-18.9 feet) to project forward and engage the enemy. The remaining four to six cubits of the sarrisa were used in holding it as well as acting as a counter weight. Hoplites required only 48 cn.(18.9 in). For all sword and shield units they should start out in this open order formation with the option to change to a closed "Defensive" formation offering increased protection at the cost of offensive capability. So the question is how do we mod this?

I should think that all humans should have the default radius of 0.4 with the exception of pikemen. As mentioned .25 is the best compromise. The spacing of the phalangite would be equivalent to 1 meter or in the formation .. 1. However we know that in game mechanics this is not a good spacing for pikemen due to the before known issues of pikes.

Now if you are saying that we should have 5 pikes to 1 meter of frontage than that would seem more plausible to be able to work out. first we have two ranks that lower their pikes. so if we split that than each rank would have 2.5 pikes per meter. the figure would seem to be 0.4 meters per pike in the first rank. this would mean you would need a radius of .2 and your height should start at anywhere from 2.7 and up you will need to test. First you need to establish baseline with vanilla mtw2 pikemen out of spearwall. than test your new arrangment also out of spearwall. once you get the same kill/loss results you should have them very close to balanced.

the height value is very sensitive. once you find the sweetspot you would be surprised that just .1 off can make a huge difference.

than if you are trying to simulate a successor phalanx you could use untrained in the mental stat so that the formation looks like it has 3 or more layers of pikes lowered.

[Valiant Champion]

I tested the .2 radius.

so this experimental setting will be mass 4, radius .2, height 2.55

and formation will be 0.4, 1.8

and mental stat will use either trained or untrained depending on the players preference for the cosmetic appearance.

The spearwall will work better, however as we decrease the width spacing the overall formation grows increasingly narrow. which is the only setback. a person will find himself fighting with a formation only 2 or 3 deep to keep from being flanked.

a person will eventually find themselves wanting to increase the unit to the 100 size to compensate for things so they can keep a deep formation.

which deep formations are good in that they prevent turn around. If your formation is 6 or more deep you wont get a turn around. everything has its tradeoffs.

you can however use the superior pike performance and a deep formation to your advantage by marching through the enemy center in the manner the AI does and than once you penetrate wheel right to destroy the enemies left wing and than wheel left to destroy his right wing.

one must keep in mind that such tactics required intense micromanagment so the unit would keep pikes before to carry them out, but is much simpler with radius modifications.

type Republican Guard Pikeman
dictionary Republican_Guard_Pikeman
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type light
banner faction banner_Ricco
banner holy crusade
soldier Republican_Guard_Pikeman, 50, 0, 4, 0.2, 2.55
mount_effect elephant +4, horse +4, camel +4
attributes sea_faring, can_withdraw, pike, mercenary_unit
move_speed_mod 0.9
formation 0.4, 1.8, 1.2, 1.8, 4, square, phalanx
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 13, 5, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, spear, 0, 1
stat_pri_attr spear, long_pike
stat_sec 7, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 4, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 0, -2, -5, -2
stat_mental 11, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1500, 300, 100, 100, 1500, 1, 550
armour_ug_levels 5
armour_ug_models Republican_Guard_Pikeman
ownership slave, hre, papal_states, portugal, spain, scotland, sicily, milan, venice, saxons, byzantium, france, kalmar_union
recruit_priority_offset 30


--------------------------------------------------------------

I am planning on taking advantage of the loose formation to make a wider spaced formation that can be used to stop cavalry only. as in a pike and musket purpose. Of course the AI would have absolutely no idea how to use it itself.

this would be achieved by implementing these changes in formation 0.4, 1.8, 1.2, 1.8, 4

that way in loose formation they will have something close to vanilla width spacing. when you place the unit in guard mode even though it is out of phalanx it can stop a cavalry charge very effectively. when the horsemen near the pike unit it will brace its first rank and overarch the second rank just before the cavalry impact.

[Valiant Champion]

Getting really good results. Even with deep formations that get wrapped.

I do my testing with the simple command to attack and leaving them alone without any micromanagment.

AI is doing a good job with them. I have sent in multiple units piecemeal to attack an AI controlled pikemen with the AI destroying 4 units in succession. It was a test against a third age harad army. I had harad spearmen, southron spearmen, corsairs and southron pikemen. My stats on the unit was a submodded in swiss armored pikemen with 13 attack and 16 defence (8 armor), secondary weapon attack was a 10 iirc.

The order I sent the harad units in was harad spearmen, southron pikemen, corsairs and than southron spearmen.

there is still the uphill downhill bug to contend with but on level ground they are very tough.

[Valiant Champion]

No micromanagment

enjoy

more to come

[Valiant Champion]

the purpose of this one is to show that a modded pike unit can destroy an inferior force without going to bad war. This was an issue with vanilla pikemen in that even against inferior infantry they would switch to swords very quickly.

[Valiant Champion]

decreased height to 2.55

refer to post 1

[Mr.InTeLeX]

That's really what pikemen should be.

[leonn]

very nice indeed.ive fought in many a pikeblock as a reenactor in the past and this is pretty damn close to how pike when used properly should behave.
going head on into well trained pike with swords or other hand weapons leads to that unit being shishkebabbed very quickly.
very well done sir! cheers

[Valiant Champion]

Can giant or Daemon Prince "elephant mount" models be converted to an infantry skeleton?

Would having an adjustable radius make this more possible than before?