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Thread: Strong square formations

  1. #1

    Default Strong square formations

    My cavalry seems really weak. The AI forms a square as soon as their line infantry is hit by the cavalry killing the cav even though the square hasn't even properly formed. Austrian square took on unit of grenadier a cheval a unit of carabiners and cuirassiers all at the same time.

  2. #2
    mAIOR's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Yeah they should be nerfed somewhat. Maybe reduce the bonus you get when forming squares. The main power of the square is to disrupt the cavalry charge just enough so that cavalry has to reform. If they miss their volley they should be destroyable. At least, single infantry squares. Mutual supporting squares is another matter. Cavalry tires quickly as well, you need to keep an eye on their status. Now that morale represents cohesion, a tired cavalry unit can become quite fragile.



    Cheers...


  3. #3

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    actually, there were only few situation when cavalry broke a square,but they were very rare. Problem with the game is that AI is not very good with forming in time. therefore, if I nerf it down,we will get unhistorical results. Keeping it as it is, makes it look not good, but human player can stop his cavalry to not attack the infantry...

    its all about compromises..

    btw, i started to collect ideas for next version, so if you guys have some ideas, feel free to post them.

  4. #4
    mAIOR's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    I stick by my squares ^^ I like how the mod is now. Infantry behaves very well and light cavalry has a role. I think squares should have decreased lethality vs cavalry. That's what I'm trying to say. Even when squares were not broken, cavalry didn't suffer 40% casualties. That's the casualties the light brigade suffered much latter on. Ney's cavalry at waterloo charged 11X. that's a lot. I think squares should work in a more standoffish way but 3 regiments of elite cavalry should be able to break a square. It's just too much pressure and, should the volley fail to break the charge, cavalry could throw the square into disarray. It happened quite a lot actually whenever infantry was unnable to break the charge. Wagram is an example, or at the skirmish of Garcia Hernandez where German and english cavalry broke two French infantry squares. One of them held their fire for too long and a charging horse died and rammed the french square breaking it open. A second square was totalled when the men flinnched before the cavalry strike and then broke after the charge. At quatre bras another square was broken. Cavalry had a good chance vs isolated squares if they didn't manage to break the charge.

    Another idea is, don't touch the naval battles. They're by far the best around. Even other mods such as grand fleet and whatnot just cannot compare.

    The FOW thingy is the biggest issue however and if it is just repeating work (replacing animation files for example) I'm willing to help.

    And before I forget, an option for 40 units where units cost 30% less. This will allow you to field more troops albeit at a lower proportion. Battles do take shape with 40 units. You can bring 5 corps to bear



    Cheers...


  5. #5

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    For some reason the computers square ain't hollow but mine are. quite an inviting artillery target. Would be good if a squares survival depended on you timing a volley shot. Too soon the bullets have little effect to late and well exactly what happened in the battle of Garcia Hernandez.

    Bock's dragoons charged a square belonging to a battalion of the 6th Light. The French held their fire too long. Their volley killed a number of horsemen, but a mortally wounded horse carrying a dead dragoon crashed into the square like a battering ram.[3] The horse fell, kicking wildly, knocking down at least a half-dozen men and creating a gap in the square. Captain Gleichen rode his horse into the gap, followed by his troopers. The square broke up and most of the men surrendered. A second square farther up the hillside was soon charged. Shaken by the first square's disaster, the men flinched when the dragoons rode into them. Soon the men in the second square were running for their lives, except those who surrendered. Foy quickly pulled back the rest of his troops. Anson's horsemen mopped up the battlefield.

    Rain should have a larger effect as well since other circumstances that could lead to a successful cavalry attack included sudden rainstorms soaking the infantry's gunpowder and effectively reducing their weapons to very short pikes.

    Will try an get a screenshot of the computers weird square formation although it resembles more of a irregular dodecagon.

  6. #6
    mAIOR's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    It's called battalion mass. And it was some sort of mobile square and better at fending of cavalry. I don't recall where I read it but the romans found that to stop a heavy cavalry charge, at least 5 ranks were needed and the first three suffered badly. Those formations should be harder to break since the body of men would eventually stop the charge. and the remaining ones could probably stick the horseman to death with their bayonets. Square basically removed the flank of infantry units and gave a firing angle of 360 degrees.



    Cheers...


  7. #7

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Attila: only Austrians have those squares, as they prefered them in reality. Every other faction has standard square.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    JaM, a possible solution for the instant square problem (the second you hit square a crapload of bonuses apply leaving cavalry pretty useless)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341077

    Testing in NTW3 showed (so far) that unformed squares (when units are in the process of forming them) get shattered by cavalry. Great news




    Cheers...


  9. #9

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Quote Originally Posted by mAIOR View Post
    JaM, a possible solution for the instant square problem (the second you hit square a crapload of bonuses apply leaving cavalry pretty useless)
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341077

    Testing in NTW3 showed (so far) that unformed squares (when units are in the process of forming them) get shattered by cavalry. Great news




    Cheers...
    Use my technic http://mjollnir.twcenter.net/forums/...d.php?t=339434 and pajolife mod

  10. #10
    mAIOR's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Quote Originally Posted by panzerschreck View Post
    Dude, I want to make squares weaker not stronger. Anyway, just a heads up, found a great many deal of examples of cavalry shredding squares to ribbons. Unfortunately they are not very detailed...

    I'll probably update my topic of historical facts tomorrow or so.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Quote Originally Posted by mAIOR View Post
    Dude, I want to make squares weaker not stronger. Anyway, just a heads up, found a great many deal of examples of cavalry shredding squares to ribbons. Unfortunately they are not very detailed...

    I'll probably update my topic of historical facts tomorrow or so.
    Indeed, I didn't read well, with pajolife mod they will be weaker, cavalry will penetrate the squares

  12. #12

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Guys, plan is to give infantry in square smaller bonus vs cavalry in next update. Cavalry wont enter the square anyway, as NER already has modified mass for units, where cavalry has much lower mass than infantry, so cavalry wont break into square easily. High bonus was only to make AI to use squares if attacked by cavalry, but it looks i gave it probably too high value, it was counterbalanced by Cavalry bonus vs infantry (not in square). So reducing infantry bonus will make cavalry more effective,which is a good thing considering their price..

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    will you lower lethality? Also did you check the link I posted, that is a possible solution for the instant squares since unformed squares get trashed by cavalry and formed scares no. Sounds interenting. I think I'll just slap it in my data folder and post the feedback here.




    Cheers...


  14. #14

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    question is how it is done... if you can get the answer for that question, i will definitely add it if it wont go against the current combat system (Unit stats, mass etc)

    I know it is tempting to have cavalry rolling over infantry positions easily, but that is not what happened in reality.Trained Infantry formed in line would stop frontal cavalry attack most of the time.. that was lesson learned hard at battle of Minden in 18.century where unsupported British infantry formed in lines, stopped French Elite cavalry and wiped them out by massed musket fire. That was exactly why no cavalry commander would send his unit frontally against formed infantry,but would try to hit them from flank, from which they will get routed fast, overrun and hacked to pieces. Square was just a method how to not allow cavalry to hit infantry into flank...

    From technical perspective, horse is not willing to crash into people by default. and even if it is possible to train horse to do that, majority of horses used in war were not trained - those trained were killed first, then cavalrymen had to obtain horse locally... many French cavalerists had german or austrian horses, and they didnt even knew how to fully controll them (horse didnt understand french commands )


    So, that is why basic idea behind cavalry in NER and ER is to not allow it to break into infantry, which means they have much smaller mass than infantry to achieve that. Cavalry vs Cavalry duels are not impacted as there is still difference between heavy and light horses. but even heaviest horse will not penetrate line infantry formation. (Just keep in mind skirmishers have low mass, so cavalry will overrun them fast...)

    Regarding the square forming penalty, i believe that is hardcoded behavior in NTW, only difference in NER probably is that low mass doesn't allow cavalry to overrun infantry while forming. Its not ideal, but there is no other way how to simulate horse behavior of "not willing to crash into body of men" So there are certain compromises in comparation to other mods. I will redice square bonus, and probably increase cavalry melee bonus (vs unformed infantry). That should make cavalry even more lethal, but not overwhelming and all-destroying force. Biggest cavalry weapon was a shock of its presence on the flank...

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Strong square formations

    No dude, the mod makes cavalry able to rol over scattered infantry but a solid line will hold. Infantry in formed square still holds. Problem right now is that as soon as you hit square button, infatry gets the bonuses. It's the biggest problem for me. Infantry should form squares with enough time to be perfectly stable vs cavalry not on the last second cutting down my expensive cavalry in the process.

    I agree with the role of cavalry but they did shred infantry when they caught it off guard.





    Cheers...


  16. #16

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    that is only true in Empire realism, but not in Napoleon. Square button doesnt adds bonus instantly, but only applies when square is formed. At least this is the answer i got from CA stuff

  17. #17

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    question is how it is done... if you can get the answer for that question, i will definitely add it if it wont go against the current combat system (Unit stats, mass etc)
    Well let me know if you can crack it, I looked at this but it won't work with the mass set-up we use (in NTW:3)

    Did you borrow the high mass infantry/low mass cavalry idea (to stop friendly or enemy cav running through inf) from NTW:3?
    Not that I mind (I've borrowed a few things myself), anyone is free to make such changes, just curious.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    Cavalry totally obliterating foot soldiers may look fine on the screen, but sometimes, spectacular cinematographic effects have nothing to do with historical reality at all.

    From an historical point of view, it is totally inaccurate that cavalry was able to break squares easily. It is a well known fact that horses were unable to penetrate a square once it was formed. There are some example of crack units destroying infantry squares but they are very rare (11 th and 8 th cuirrassier at the battle of "quatres bras" against 69 th and 33 rd foot ; russian knight guards against soult's infantry at Austerlitz and a few more.

    At the moment, cavalry behavior against infantry in NER looks fine as it is except for 2 problems :

    - Cavalry units initiating melee at walking pace instead of gallop charge is totally inaccurate.
    - Cavalry impacting infantry while it is forming squares resulting in cavalry routing. It is the foot soldiers that should be crushed in this kind of situation.

    Don't make infantry squares weaker, they are fine as they are in my opinion. On an other hand, squares impacted while they are not fully formed should be routed, sabered and disintegrated.
    Last edited by Bellicose; May 30, 2012 at 11:19 AM.
    Qual ten la lenga, ten la clau que de sas cadenas lo desliura.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    For what it is worth baron Jomini opinion on the matter was: "a charge against squares of good infantry in good order cannot succeed". That was meant as a general rule and no doubt squares could and were broken on occasion, somebody wavering and triggering panic or some freak accident such as wounded horses crashing into the men, but it was not something that could be relied upon or worth trying.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Strong square formations

    skeptic, you're right, the number of molecules should actually be much higher, however, i tried to give the best possible odds within human reason to abiogenesis.

    helpful hints

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