Gondor units diversity

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I wonder if Gondor is actually representative of a feudal kingdom, consisting of several quite autonomous provinces/fiefs. Dol Amroth was a very powerful vassal state at that.

[Aradan]

Gondor was not feudal in the sense of our medieval world. Feudal means giving land to a noble in exchange for service and forming a personal contract; that's not what happened in Gondor. The term fiefs is used in LotR to refer to geographical areas, not to denote vassal states.

That said, what would you do differently?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I figured the fief part; It just seems to me that, idealism aside, Gondor would realistically be more like high medieval France, with an army of professional (landed or paid) retinues of powerful nobles. Dol Amroth always left quote an autonomous impression on me, as did the other cities and provinces.

Remember, the further down the line we go the greyer the morality would become. But that might be just me seeing things in a cynical light.

[Stark1]

I was also confused by reinforcements Minas Tirith got before battle of Pellenor. They weren't army regiments called back by Denethor, they were levies of distinct regions, led by their respective lords, and judging by comments of the folk ("they held back a lot of their men) their lords had control over how much men they would send.

For Denethor it would make more sense to concentrate his forces where the main strike would come, but worried nobility seemed to have held back it's forces in fear for their own domains.

[Aradan]

It's closer to the ERE than France, really. There is no multi-layered hierarchy of vassals, where each lord has vassals of his own and there is money (feudalism was useful because there was no need for money involved).

As for the lords not sending all their forces to MT, there are a couple of fine points:

Lossarnach, Lamedon, Blackroot Vale, Green Hills, those are not coastal regions and therefore not immediately threatened by the Corsairs. And yet they sent most of their men to defend Lebennin, Anfalas and Belfalas, they didn't keep them home. Of course one could argue that by defending the coasts they indirectly defended their homes, but the same would apply to MT as well. They were simply sent to a different front, possibly by a central authority (Denethor or the Council), they were not being withheld because their lords were powerful enough to ignore the Steward.

And so the companies came [...] men of the Outlands marching to defend the City of Gondor [...] but always too few, always less than hope looked for or need asked.

The wording here indicates that the people of MT hoped for more men and that there was a need for more men. But not that Denethor had asked for or expected more troops. One could very well argue that the lords of the fiefs did not hold back any forces that he requested, but that the plan was not to leave the coasts undefended. Of course that would seem unfortunate to the citizens of MT, but it wouldn't be a sign of disobedience.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Remember, it made perfect sense for nobles to send forces to MT because that was the primary chance of defeating the witch king's army. I don't think they could objectively hope to survive divided. So somewhat moot point.

My guess would be that they could indeed be the themes and thematic aristocrats. with the forces of Pellenor and MT being, in fact, the tagma. But it still means the empire was quite disunited and oligarchic, with the richest aristocrats having amassed all the feudal land - which would also explain the division of the empire into "fiefs" instead of "provinces".






What I'd really like would be a cynical, low fantasy version of ME during the "war of the ring". Without the ring, magic and no black&white morality.

[Aradan]

Oligarchic: name one society where most of the land is not in the hands of a few rich guys... Even the most 'idyllic' of places in ME, the Shire, is all about rich/powerful families that have all the land. It would be surprising to have a different system for a mannish kingdom in a high fantasy setting, where there are kings and princes and lords etc.

Disunited: what's disunited about a kingdom with a standing army that has a levy in times of need, where each lord brings his region's troops and they all unite in one big army under one commander in each front?


EDIT: They wouldn't survive either if the coasts fell and all that remained was Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth. There were two ways into Gondor, MT and the coasts, and the kingdom's troops had to protect both.


Whatever the case, what would you like changed in the mod? Or is it an 'academic' discussion?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I should paraphrase - I used to think Gondor was kind of a benevolent empire ruled directly from the capital when I was a kid. By disunited I meant to say they were decentralized - so my bad in incorrect semantics. As for the strategic considerations, I well understand them, but you probably agree that sendig no troops to MT would be risky as well - the nobles obviously knew the witch king would crush them in detail if they didn't help the emperor (the stewards were for all practical intents and purposes monarchs, until the kings returned). Especially since the monarch's force was by default the most powerful single force in the empire. Long story short - quite decentralized, but still united. My error in phrasing my statement. English is not my native language, after all.


Regarding the point of the discussion - it is largely academic, but I would welcome if there was less centralization. Maybe each major province has a local family (with respective ancilliaries) And maybe a little unit variety from province to province... Then again, I suppose the unit limit is probably full. So yeah, it's pretty much all academic, since the mod is going to be good enough* as it is.



*by that I mean, it's going to blow me away and leave me drooling all over the keyboard while experiencig convulsions.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

By extended AoR I should rather mean less availability of tagmatic troops in the provinces. Or give the pkayer the choice between core and AoR troops, rather than both in any province.

[Aradan]

I should paraphrase - I used to think Gondor was kind of a benevolent empire ruled directly from the capital when I was a kid.

Same here. The most wrong part was "benevolent". I mean, you read LotR once and you think dunedain and Rohirrim are such good guys. And then you read again and they have committed a couple genocides each...

By disunited I meant to say they were decentralized - so my bad in incorrect semantics. As for the strategic considerations, I well understand them, but you probably agree that sending no troops to MT would be risky as well - the nobles obviously knew the witch king would crush them in detail if they didn't help the emperor (the stewards were for all practical intents and purposes monarchs, until the kings returned). Especially since the monarch's force was by default the most powerful single force in the empire. Long story short - quite decentralized, but still united. My error in phrasing my statement. English is not my native language, after all.

I agree and disagree at the same time. There was a degree of de-centralisation, but I think Denethor was aware and in agreement (if he hadn't ordered it himself) with the decision to send most of the fiefs' forces to defend the coasts. They would be screwed if either MT or the coasts fell, just from a different side. No pun intended.

Regarding the point of the discussion - it is largely academic, but I would welcome if there was less centralization. Maybe each major province has a local family (with respective ancilliaries) And maybe a little unit variety from province to province... Then again, I suppose the unit limit is probably full. So yeah, it's pretty much all academic, since the mod is going to be good enough* as it is.

Families are certainly possible, the game is able to keep track of multiple family trees, so we'll experiment with that. Traits and ancillaries are also possible, we already have those in TNS, though they are not hereditary. Units, yeah, those are difficult. In TNS there are Lamedon Hillmen, Coastal Armsmen, Pinnath Gelin Warriors, Gondorian Hillmen, Lossarnach Axemen, Blackroot Vale Bowmen, Dol Amroth MaA and Knights, and the White Company, apart from the regular forces, so I think RK is, as a faction, over-represented in terms of slots allocated to it.

*by that I mean, it's going to blow me away and leave me drooling all over the keyboard while experiencig convulsions.

We'll be satisfied even without convulsions.

By extended AoR I should rather mean less availability of tagmatic troops in the provinces. Or give the pkayer the choice between core and AoR troops, rather than both in any province.

Ah, I see. This does present its own set of difficulties, related to gameplay (and model slots to an extent). We'll consider it.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Same here. The most wrong part was "benevolent". I mean, you read LotR once and you think dunedain and Rohirrim are such good guys. And then you read again and they have committed a couple genocides each...

Indeed.

I agree and disagree at the same time. There was a degree of de-centralisation, but I think Denethor was aware and in agreement (if he hadn't ordered it himself) with the decision to send most of the fiefs' forces to defend the coasts. They would be screwed if either MT or the coasts fell, just from a different side. No pun intended.

Only a very dim leader would question the noble's decision to keep their forces south, IMO.

Families are certainly possible, the game is able to keep track of multiple family trees, so we'll experiment with that. Traits and ancillaries are also possible, we already have those in TNS, though they are not hereditary.

That's nice. If you manage to make the provinces have hereditary rulers, I'll give the team all the rep I can muster.

Units, yeah, those are difficult. In TNS there are Lamedon Hillmen, Coastal Armsmen, Pinnath Gelin Warriors, Gondorian Hillmen, Lossarnach Axemen, Blackroot Vale Bowmen, Dol Amroth MaA and Knights, and the White Company, apart from the regular forces, so I think RK is, as a faction, over-represented in terms of slots allocated to it.

Not so much the units, more the availability - no throne units in the provinces and no provincial units outside their respective homeland.

We'll be satisfied even without convulsions.

I am not sure it matters, because I was already quite impressed by TNS.

Ah, I see. This does present its own set of difficulties, related to gameplay (and model slots to an extent). We'll consider it.

Thanks.

[Thangaror]

The term fiefs is used in LotR to refer to geographical areas,

Also administratively I'd say.

I was also confused by reinforcements Minas Tirith got before battle of Pellenor. They weren't army regiments called back by Denethor, they were levies of distinct regions, led by their respective lords, and judging by comments of the folk ("they held back a lot of their men) their lords had control over how much men they would send.

True. I still wonder if there indeed was an 'army' and if the way Gondorian forces are representend in FATW is correct. Regarding the text, I'd judge that the 'army' was quite small, if not unimportant compared to the united forces of all Gondor. There seems to have been a quite small garrison at MT, including the Rangers, the troops at Osgiliath and a garrison at Cair Andros (and maybe at Pelargir, Linhir and the other provinces that don't seem to have a lord). If I look at the text only, I cannot think of a single "unit type" available in all Gondor. The guards and military in Dol Amroth or Calembel won't bear the White Tree but the Coat of Arms of their local lord.

Did the detachments from the fiefs unit under the White Tree, or was it more like german Emperor Otto I. beating the Magyars on Lechfeld? (where every Lord led his own men in a separate detachment).

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The latter, most likely. That would fit the nature of early/high medieval warfare. The text certainly gives such an impression.

[Aradan]

Here are some of the gameplay issues that arise from this:

We would have to have a unit (and a model) for each fief roughly. That means a bunch of extra models, which is an issue (not insurmountable, if there's a good enough incentive).
Those units would be available, depending on their quality, at tiers 1 to 2/3of 'barracks'. In provinces where they replace the tier-1 unit (militia), what kind of unit would the tier-2 barracks make available? The regular/professional/uniform army would probably not be available, so no "Gondorian Swordsmen" or Bowmen of Gondor" etc. In provinces where they replace tier-2 units, what kind of tier-1 unit would there be?
Then, assuming we make only local levies available in Gondor, where would the professional troops come from? Only MA? Do other provinces have the potential of recruiting the professional troops? What happens when RK captures a province outside its homelands? What kind of "factional" unit becomes available where there are now the Militia?
Also, what about all the other factions? If RK had this sort of army, then less developed factions would have something similar, if not even less organised. How would recruitment work for Harad? Would we have levies everywhere and professional troops only in Umbar? And what kind of levies? if Gondor has 10 different militia-level units, Harad would probably have at least 2-3, instead of a common "Footmen of Harad"? And so on about the other 15 factions. I doubt there were any 'common' units available all across an entire faction (or that each unit was armed in the same way), but there are limitations we have to work with.



Feel free to suggest things, I don't have a problem with changing the way whole systems work (multiple times), if I find something better - much to the dismay of the rest of the team, I might add.


EDIT: If you want, I can split this discussion to its own thread.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Good suggestion - this should indeed be separated.

Well, for one, I would suggest making the swordsmen of Gondor and Gondoran militia more generic looking, you know, not sporting any heraldry, and renaming them to something less specific (swordsmen and militia, for example).

[Aradan]

K, thread split.

Renaming/re-texturing the basic units is easy enough - we have renamed some already anyway.

What else?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Apart from the provincial dynasty thing? Not sure.

One suggestion would be that the provincial strongmen get very good stats apart from loyalty, so as to represent the increasingly mundane ME. That would fit well with their position as feudal nobles, who were always bickering among themselves.

[Aradan]

The noblemen in Gondor hardly bickered with each other, actually.

If anyone has other ideas WRT the units in Gondor and diversity etc, feel free to share.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The noblemen in Gondor hardly bickered with each other, actually.

I know, but note that this is the fourth age.

[Aradan]

Sure, but things can't change that much. Lords loyal to the RK wouldn't fight against other lords loyal to the RK...