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Thread: I renounce islam

  1. #141

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsunegari View Post
    To the OP i hope you have a good disguise or alternate identity ready:
    From the liberal sheik Qaradhawi.
    Depends on where he lives.
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #142

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Yeah if you're in dar ul-harb i think most Muslim jurists wouldn't call for someone to kill you unless you're a well-known person like Rushdie
    There seems to be a problem with many "modernist and liberal" Muslims out there who would like to "sugarcoat" the religion of Islam by distorting what it really teaches. There are those that go at length to deny that Islam teaches that apostates must be killed. They either deny the explicit hadith that speak about this or reinterpret it to only refer to those apostates that would fight the Muslims.

    This is false. I am not going to spend time in this article trying to prove that Islam does call for the killing of apostates and the rules and conditions behind killing apostates (e.g. the apostate must be interrogated first in order to refute what doubts he has for three days, etc.) for I am assuming that my readers already adhere to and have knowledge of the orthodox position regarding the matter. What I want to speak about in this article is the reason for Islam ordering the killing of apostates.

    Before I proceed, let me make it clear that when I speak about apostates that must be killed I am only referring to those apostates who live under an Islamic theocratic state and have openly declared their apostasy. What this means is that no Muslim has a right to go to America or Europe for example and start killing ex-Muslims, for he has no such authority to do so.
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of...ould_be_killed

  3. #143

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsunegari View Post
    Yeah if you're in dar ul-harb i think most Muslim jurists wouldn't call for someone to kill you unless you're a well-known person like Rushdie
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/of...ould_be_killed
    Not just dar ul-harb.
    The Armenian Issue

  4. #144

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    It will be validated when you die.
    Please provide evidence that this is true and not just your personal opinion. If you have none, then it's fine for you to believe this - but it does not mean one gets to preach this as a matter of fact. From the realm of the dead, no man has ever returned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsunegari View Post
    Yeah if you're in dar ul-harb i think most Muslim jurists wouldn't call for someone to kill you unless you're a well-known person like Rushdie
    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    I'm getting a real cognitive dissonance vibe from you on this. The Quran lays out where it is acceptable to beat your wife. I'm sure it was VERY progressive by 7th century standards even, after all she gets several chances before you pimp smack her. Its still beating your wife dude.
    And this is my problem with religions in general. When you sink so low that you start defending atrocities in deference to your religion - you've lost all moral highground you might've had and you've sacrificed your own humanity. Whether it's about beating your wife, condoning slavery, executing apostates and so on, it matters not. Wether or not you think I should be imposing my morals on people who thinks that this is okay - that's up to you. I personally think that if you do not impose secular humanist values over fanatical religious ones, you'll have a joyride through medieval europe when the church's word was Law of the Land. You know what we called that era?

    That's right. The Dark Ages.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
    - Voltaire

    p.s
    I only quoted Kitsunegari there because Mr Rushdie's case is a rather well known one in the world and thought I'd bring it up together with the beating of wives.
    Last edited by Vhaelor; February 01, 2012 at 01:27 PM.


  5. #145

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Please provide evidence that this is true and not just your personal opinion. If you have none, then it's fine for you to believe this - but it does not mean one gets to preach this as a matter of fact. From the realm of the dead, no man has ever returned.
    Who teaches it as a fact?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    And this is my problem with religions in general. When you sink so low that you start defending atrocities in deference to your religion - you've lost all moral highground you might've had and you've sacrificed your own humanity. Whether it's about beating your wife, condoning slavery, executing apostates and so on, it matters not.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
    - Voltaire
    And that's what we call in Turkish "understanding from your ass"...


    So far you've established your inability to understand a simple discussion with your first post in this thread. Good job!
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #146

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Who teaches it as a fact?
    Let's see, priests, deacons, bishops, mullas, imams, rabbis and pretty much anyone in their flock (and i'm only covering the three major monotheistic or Abrahamic religions). You just said it yourself that "it will be validated when you die". Hello? Also one important note: I said preach and not teach. The difference is that the latter actually informs the reader that you have something worthwhile to pass on to your followers/students/children, the former informs the reader that you're stating your religious opinion based on either your own feelings or scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    And that's what we call in Turkish "understanding from your ass"...

    So far you've established your inability to understand a simple discussion with your first post in this thread. Good job!
    By resorting to personal insults you've only gone so far to show that you've been backed into a corner and have nothing substantial to back your claims up with. You also avoided to respond to the whole point about the dark ages. Do you acknowledge the point to be true or..?

    What is there to understand in this simple discussion (the very fact that you consider a subject such as religion or even philosophy simple shows only that you maybe don't fully grasp that those subjects are more difficult to discuss than you state)? I only pointed out that when you start defending harmful beliefs just because they're your religious beliefs -you've lost your humanity, because when you do that you've already laid the first step for a disastrous outcome in the not-so-distant future. Will you acknowledge the point that was just made or resort to more insults? It's just sad and unnecessary, mate.
    Last edited by Vhaelor; February 01, 2012 at 01:49 PM.


  7. #147

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Let's see, priests, deacons, bishops, mullas, imams, rabbis and pretty much anyone in their flock (and i'm only covering the three major monotheistic or Abrahamic religions). You just said it yourself that "it will be validated when you die". Hello? Also one important note: I said preach and not teach. The difference is that the latter actually informs the reader that you have something worthwhile to pass on to your followers/students/children, the former informs the reader that you're stating your religious opinion based on either your own feelings or scripture.
    Then you should go talk to those priest, deacons, bishops, mullas, imams and rabbis. You need to realize that you're discussing an issue with a random guy on an anonymous forum. Of course it's my opinion. I made that quite clear that it's an issue of belief and not knowledge. You need to read other people's arguments properly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    By resorting to personal insults you've only gone so far to show that you've been backed into a corner and have nothing substantial to back your claims up with. You also avoided to respond to the whole point about the dark ages. Do you acknowledge the point to be true or..?

    What is there to understand in this simple discussion (the very fact that you consider a subject such as religion or even philosophy simple shows only that you maybe don't fully grasp that those subjects are more difficult to discuss than you state)? I only pointed out that when you start defending harmful beliefs just because they're your religious beliefs -you've lost your humanity, because when you do that you've already laid the first step for a disastrous outcome in the not-so-distant future. Will you acknowledge the point that was just made or resort to more insults? It's just sad and unnecessary, mate.
    People are backed into a corner after a discussion. Two comments doesn't make a discussion. Moreover, my comment was not an insult. It was the pointing of an ignorant comment. Using fancy words won't help your case either. You're accusing me of defending beating of women which is the proof that you failed to read what I discussed here. You have to learn to differentiate between criticism of what you say and criticism of what you are because clearly you don't. Go back. Read what I said in this thread again and then we may have a proper discussion.
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #148

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Then you should go talk to those priest, deacons, bishops, mullas, imams and rabbis. You need to realize that you're discussing an issue with a random guy on an anonymous forum. Of course it's my opinion. I made that quite clear that it's an issue of belief and not knowledge. You need to read other people's arguments properly.
    You wrote a short sentence that can only be read in one manner, even within the context. Deal with it, sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    People are backed into a corner after a discussion. Two comments doesn't make a discussion. Moreover, my comment was not an insult. It was the pointing of an ignorant comment. Using fancy words won't help your case either. You're accusing me of defending beating of women which is the proof that you failed to read what I discussed here. You have to learn to differentiate between criticism of what you say and criticism of what you are because clearly you don't. Go back. Read what I said in this thread again and then we may have a proper discussion.

    No, I did not hint or imply that you thought that beating women was fine etc. I began my sentence with "my problem with religions" (not exact quote,I know). Please read again before accusing another of not doing so properly, I agree - two comments don't make a discussion. But apparently we did not need discussions before you resorted to turkish proverbs about "understanding out of your arse" (for a productive discussion, was that remark even necessary?), and sometimes it's enough to give one or two comments before the other party is backed into a corner. The "You" in the context there was meant not in first person directed to you, seth, but rather about "you" as a general term for a random religious person.

    beating women, punishing apostates/homosexuals/freethinkers/non believers/drinkers/people in general for trivial offenses with harsh or capital punishment is wrong, no matter the country, mate.
    Last edited by Vhaelor; February 01, 2012 at 02:10 PM.


  9. #149

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    You wrote a short sentence that can only be read in one manner, even within the context. Deal with it, sir.
    Repeating false accusations won't really make your point any less wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post

    No, I did not hint or imply that you thought that beating women was fine etc. I began my sentence with "my problem with religions" (not exact quote,I know). Please read again before accusing another of not doing so properly, I agree - two comments don't make a discussion. But apparently we did not need discussions before you resorted to turkish proverbs about thinking about something out of your arse, and sometimes it's enough to give one or two comments before the other party is backed into a corner. The "You" in the context there was meant not in first person directed to you, seth, but rather about "you" as a general term for a random religious person.

    beating women, punishing apostates/homosexuals/freethinkers/non believers/drinkers/people in general for trivial offenses with harsh or capital punishment is wrong, no matter the country, mate.
    You quoted Phier highlighting the wife beating part. Feel free to make other false statements and arguing against points nobody made.
    The Armenian Issue

  10. #150

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Phier View Post
    http://translate.google.com/#auto|en...88%D9%87%D9%86

    While you can try hard to say it doesn't tell you to beat your disobedient wife, its the most common and accepted translation. Its in character with the age it was written.


    It's so easy to dismiss the researches of others.
    You're just copy pasting things, you have not spent a single hours doing a real research on the issue. You are definitely wrong.
    http://free-minds.org/are-women-be-beaten
    http://free-minds.org/sites/default/...ting-islam.pdf

    What the quran says and what the corrupt leaders of the islamic religion say are two different things.

    You can read what is in those links. Or stay ignorant.

    Your choice.
    Last edited by Yosemite; February 01, 2012 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #151

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Repeating false accusations won't really make your point any less wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    You quoted Phier highlighting the wife beating part. Feel free to make other false statements and arguing against points nobody made.
    Please provide good arguments instead of just assertions that this is the case (i.e that I am making false accusations and false statements). You sir are only beating a dead horse called a strawman fallacy. I quoted wife beating only there because it's an atrocity, and no God, scirpture or crazy religious preacher will ever convince me that this is the right course of action - no matter how you interpret your religious scripture. The problem isn't how you interpret the Qu'ran today. The problem is how you *can* interpret it to suit your needs, I believe that's a point somebody tried to bring across on a previous page. I'm just saying that it's wrong. And you're arguing with that point. Need I say more on the subject?

    Because you only seem to be after a pie-throwing contest, I'm done with you. When you bring more intellectually compelling arguments, I might consider debating this issue with you again.
    Last edited by Vhaelor; February 01, 2012 at 02:26 PM.


  12. #152

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Yes knew a lot of Muslims in my previous neighborhood and i remember them saying this exact thing.
    and nobody here said anything of the sort

    why are you remaining ignorant of the current situation in islam?

    if you try to contradict one of those traditional islamic scholars, you are branded a heretic

    the people just shut up and follow because of peer pressure, i've seen it happen around me, i've seen people trying to convince me to do this
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Please provide good arguments instead of just assertions that this is the case (i.e that I am making false accusations and false statements). You sir are only beating a dead horse called a strawman fallacy. I quoted wife beating only there because it's an atrocity, and no God, scirpture or crazy religious preacher will ever convince me that this is the right course of action - no matter howyou interpret your religious scripture. I did nowhere in my posts say that you or muslims condone this, I'm just saying that it's wrong. And you're arguing with that point. Need I say more on the subject?

    Because you only seem to be after a pie-throwing contest, I'm done with you. When you bring more intellectually compelling arguments, I might consider debating this issue with you again.
    if you had educated yourself on the issue you'd know it's not only about a wrong interpretation or right interpretation, but it's also a problem of deliberately modifying the meaning of a verse with the bias of the translator

    the issue is not black and white, you can take off your white knight armor and get off your high horse

    nobody here is advocating what the traditional muslims want
    Last edited by Yosemite; February 01, 2012 at 02:28 PM.

  13. #153

    Default

    Tbh your source could be biased.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  14. #154

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Please provide good arguments instead of just assertions that this is the case (i.e that I am making false accusations and false statements). You sir are only beating a dead horse called a strawman fallacy. I quoted wife beating only there because it's an atrocity, and no God, scirpture or crazy religious preacher will ever convince me that this is the right course of action - no matter howyou interpret your religious scripture. I did nowhere in my posts say that you or muslims condone this, I'm just saying that it's wrong. And you're arguing with that point. Need I say more on the subject?

    Because you only seem to be after a pie-throwing contest, I'm done with you. When you bring more intellectually compelling arguments, I might consider debating this issue with you again.
    Let me know when you have something relevant to say about what I said or what this thread is about.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #155

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
    and nobody here said anything of the sort

    why are you remaining ignorant of the current situation in islam?

    if you try to contradict one of those traditional islamic scholars, you are branded a heretic

    the people just shut up and follow because of peer pressure, i've seen it happen around me, i've seen people trying to convince me to do this


    if you had educated yourself on the issue you'd know it's not only about a wrong interpretation or right interpretation, but it's also a problem of deliberately modifying the meaning of a verse with the bias of the translator

    the issue is not black and white, you can take off your white knight armor and get off your high horse
    And christians don't act towards the beliefs of jesus, why should I assume Muslims choose to interpret the Koran correctly
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  16. #156

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    And christians don't act towards the beliefs of jesus, why should I assume Muslims choose to interpret the Koran correctly
    you don't want to know how to fix the problem? you just want to point the obvious?

    whatever

  17. #157

    Default

    We can't fix the problem. This is going to have to be something that evolves within their own community similar to what has happened with Europeans and christianity.
    Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.

  18. #158

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
    if you had educated yourself on the issue you'd know it's not only about a wrong interpretation or right interpretation, but it's also a problem of deliberately modifying the meaning of a verse with the bias of the translator

    nobody here is advocating what the traditional muslims want
    Have you considered that your source(s) might be biased if ours are? Claiming that your counterpart is uneducated is the ultimate punchline I suppose because it brings much to the discussion. And really, this is really not about offending you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
    the issue is not black and white
    I completely agree, many muslims, including those in my own family, reject the notion of harsh punishment for trivial offenses, no matter how you interpret the 'holy' texts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yosemite View Post
    you can take off your white knight armor and get off your high horse
    Seriously, what's with the arrogance? Is that line really necessary?


  19. #159

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    Tbh your source could be biased.
    Is it though? Or even can it be? The links do not provide an argument based on an interpretation but based on etymology and grammar.
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #160

    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    We can't fix the problem. This is going to have to be something that evolves within their own community similar to what has happened with Europeans and christianity.
    you don't have to do anything
    only to stop spewing the from the traditionalist muslims, we already all know their beliefs

    but you should not dismiss the researches made that shows how wrong the traditionalist muslims are

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Have you considered that your source(s) might be biased if ours are? Claiming that your counterpart is uneducated is the ultimate punchline I suppose because it brings much to the discussion. And really, this is really not about offending you.
    because the researches are based on grammar and and etymology like dark said just above

    it's not all interpretation pieces, it's showing the actual problems with the interpretation of traditional muslims



    Quote Originally Posted by Aruthiel View Post
    Seriously, what's with the arrogance? Is that line really necessary?
    well yeah sorry
    Last edited by Yosemite; February 01, 2012 at 02:37 PM.

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