I renounce islam

[Sphere]

So, a liberal Muslim doesn't have to ignore bits and pieces of Quran.

If you really want to argue this point I'm all for a Quran/haddith quote-off, but I don't think there is a need. There is no shortage of conflict between the idea's of liberalism and the plain reading of certain passages of Quran/haddith. I have created a list of such passages before, and I'll bore the members of this forum again if need be.

[Phier]

If you really want to argue this point I'm all for a Quran/haddith quote-off, but I don't think there is a need. There is no shortage of conflict between the idea's of liberalism and the plain reading of certain passages of Quran/haddith. I have created a list of such passages before, and I'll bore the members of this forum again if need be.

You will be told the Haddiths are not important, and that the particular offending bit of the Quran only applied to that very particular incident at that time long past.

I though, would enjoy such a list as I am not very familiar with the Haddiths.

[Kanaric]

If you really want to argue this point I'm all for a Quran/haddith quote-off, but I don't think there is a need. There is no shortage of conflict between the idea's of liberalism and the plain reading of certain passages of Quran/haddith. I have created a list of such passages before, and I'll bore the members of this forum again if need be.

Do it.

[PointOfViewGun]

If you really want to argue this point I'm all for a Quran/haddith quote-off, but I don't think there is a need. There is no shortage of conflict between the idea's of liberalism and the plain reading of certain passages of Quran/haddith. I have created a list of such passages before, and I'll bore the members of this forum again if need be.

And you would do so by ignoring completely what I said. You would certainly bore me with your selective reading.

[Kanaric]

Well if he quoted them directly couldn't you find evidence to the contrary?

[PointOfViewGun]

Well if he quoted them directly couldn't you find evidence to the contrary?

You want me to prove that fundamental Islam is Quranism and that based on the fact that application of liberalism is subjective liberal Muslims don't have to ignore bits and pieces of the Quran to be liberal?

[Kanaric]

You want me to prove that fundamental Islam is Quranism and that based on the fact that application of liberalism is subjective liberal Muslims don't have to ignore bits and pieces of the Quran to be liberal?

No, but if he had evidence in form of direct quotes you would be able to find those that prove your argument correct?

[Sphere]

I'll start with just a single example for now, and out of the Quran to avoid the whole Haddith wrangling.

Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them.

Quran 4:34, "Women,"

I'll grant you it's not in the original Arabic, but the burden is squarely on you to show how this passage doesn't plainly command a husband to beat a disobedient wife. Something which I think I am safe in saying is a crime in the vast bulk of liberal democracies.

[PointOfViewGun]

No, but if he had evidence in form of direct quotes you would be able to find those that prove your argument correct?

My points don't require quotations from Quran nor you can prove me wrong with quotations. While I aimed to correct him on what fundamental Islam was he argued that a liberal Muslim can not exist without ignoring parts of Quran with the assumption that the ultimate goal must be liberalism without telling us the scope of liberalism. So, the real issue is him ignoring what I objected and making a statement about liberalism without defining the scope of liberalism. So, Quranic verses doesn't really have a place in this discussion though people who don't like Islam or religion in general would like such a pissing contest.

I'll start with just a single example for now, and out of the Quran to avoid the whole Haddith wrangling.

I'll grant you it's not in the original Arabic, but the burden is squarely on you to show how this passage doesn't plainly command a husband to beat a disobedient wife. Something which I think I am safe in saying is a crime in the vast bulk of liberal democracies.

You really want a pissing contest don't you? The burden does not fall on me on issues that I did not argue about. You have been desperately trying to push into a position that was easier for you to argue about. Make an other thread about this.

[Kanaric]

Surely if you are going to make a point about a religion the texts are of utmost importance im any debate.

[Denny Crane!]

Surely if you are going to make a point about a religion the texts are of utmost importance im any debate.

You would think so wouldn't you.

[PointOfViewGun]

Surely if you are going to make a point about a religion the texts are of utmost importance im any debate.

Not necessarily. Plus the point I made was not about a religion but about the scope of liberalism when it's used.

[Sphere]

You really want a pissing contest don't you? The burden does not fall on me on issues that I did not argue about. You have been desperately trying to push into a position that was easier for you to argue about. Make an other thread about this.

I'll guess I will just have to try and take my defeat with dignity then.

[Denny Crane!]

Not necessarily. Plus the point I made was not about a religion but about the scope of liberalism when it's used.

Spheres point though if I read correctly was that it is necessary to adopt a good moral position without Islam whereas with Islam you are FORCED to ignore certain messages which conflict with a liberal stance in concordance with moral values.

[PointOfViewGun]

I'll guess I will just have to try and take my defeat with dignity then.

If you're seeking understanding of that verse read this link or if you actually want to address my points then address them. I initially told you what the real fundamental Islam is by the definition of the term fundamental.

Spheres point though if I read correctly was that it is necessary to adopt a good moral position without Islam whereas with Islam you are FORCED to ignore certain messages which conflict with a liberal stance in concordance with moral values.

My initial point was that Quranism is fundamental Islam. He pushed the liberalism argument on to me. With pure liberalism you may indeed need to ignore some messages in Quran. As by nature, most religions do not provide absolute freedom to the individual, however, that doesn't exist in practice anyway. So, my point was that it's all about the scope of the liberalism.

[Yosemite]

I probably didnt start this thread right, but its definetly not the actions of "some" of its followers, I have alot of reasons but I chose to give this one because it affected me greatly, the way society views sexual harassment in arab and muslim countries is unacceptable at best, its always the female who is blamed, the male may do whatever he likes without fear of being pointed at or anything, since its the female's fault for being too attractive (ing bull) and no this isnt a problem with some individuals, its a whole society.
And this sexist culture is caused by islam, I dont care how many times imams will keep repeating that islam equalizes men with women, it clearly doesnt.
I'll give you some of my grievances towards islam itself anyway: It allows men and women to marry at any age (which I think is just Muhammad's excuse for.. we all know), its homophobic (undeniable), it approves slavery, and most commands make no sense, like why do we need to pray if god doesnt need it and he doesnt care whether we do it or not?

so you are indeed leaving that religion because of the behaviors of others, and not what's written on the quran

have you ever read the quran? if you want to be serious about islam (first joining it), you should have read it
if you had read the quran, you obviously would have never joined it in the first place, if i hold you to what you said in this thread

i think you "joined" islam when you were too young

and now you leave because of the behaviors of others

I'll start with just a single example for now, and out of the Quran to avoid the whole Haddith wrangling.



I'll grant you it's not in the original Arabic, but the burden is squarely on you to show how this passage doesn't plainly command a husband to beat a disobedient wife. Something which I think I am safe in saying is a crime in the vast bulk of liberal democracies.

oh, easy
the vast majority of regular scholars and muslims will think they can beat their wives, the problem is the words themselves in the verse can be interpreted differently based on who is translating

if someone is chauvinist, it will show in his translation like the one you used
unfortunately it's the widely understood translations, because no average muslim dare to try to contradict what the "scholars" say

here's an interesting study of the verse
http://free-minds.org/are-women-be-beaten

I'll guess I will just have to try and take my defeat with dignity then.

. Make an other thread about this.

[Kitsunegari]

I'm not sure why you are announcing this on the internet, not every Muslim community is the same, but typically the penalties for apostates have been severe throughout history.

[AngryTitusPullo]

The fundamentals of Islam are rooted in the 7th century moral system of the Arabian Penisula, a time and place in which all these deplorable things were considered the proper thing to do.

If liberal Islam is better than fundamental Islam, it strongly suggests there is something wrong with the fundamentals of Islam and something right with the fundamentals of Liberalism. So why try and hang on to Islam at all?

I'm a fundamental muslim since (I believe) I am following the fundamental teachings of Islam. Since I use the internet, no I'm not living in 7th century.

There's no different between liberal and fundamental Islam since Islam is in itself liberal.

[Phier]

I'm a fundamental muslim since (I believe) I am following the fundamental teachings of Islam. Since I use the internet, no I'm not living in 7th century.

There's no different between liberal and fundamental Islam since Islam is in itself liberal.

First, what does a 7th century moral code have to do with using the internet?

Second, will you beat your wife if shes disobedient?

[Kanaric]

There's no different between liberal and fundamental Islam since Islam is in itself liberal.

Explain.