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Thread: I renounce islam

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    I dont know where to start, but I have to say that I have always questioned islam, eventhough slightly so before I was 14.
    Only now I started to understand what all of this is, in the past I used to think that those who criticize islam (who I never heard talk, only heard about them through teachers or religious TV shows) do not understand it.
    I thought that hijab really does prevent "falling in sin" but its just a huge hoax, the numebr of women wearing hijab has increased tremendously, but so has the number of molestation cases, everyone has sexual orientations, but we dont see this happening so commonly in non-muslim countries, so are arabs animals? No, it must be the stupid cultural taboos.
    And to make it worse, its women who are blamed for getting molested and raped! They didnt dress modestly! Yep, that must explain it.... Not
    Now, if we say that god exists, then why did he create us like this? Why is "sin" so attractive? Oh it must be the devil.... well then, since hijab prevents the devil from taking over our minds then why do women get molested eventhough they're dressing in full hijab?

    Religious fanatics should be put in mental hospitals, they should be contaminated, they are more damaging than radioactive materials!
    Whats really scary is that muslim parties WILL take over if democracy is allowed in arab countries, it doesnt matter how moderate and liberal they are, they will be the death of us all, I need to escape this part of the world because its all turning into Afghanistan soon and I might be beheaded if anyone knows that Im an atheist, actually this post might be putting my life at a risk!
    You seem to be arguing against Islam because of the actions of some of it's followers instead of the religion itself. Would you renounce your gender if you start to dislike actions of people of your gender?
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    One thing I've always found funny about religions is how often there own most important rules seems to be broken by some of the most important characters within the scripts.

    This leads naturally to a few question which I hope the muslims on this thread will be kind enough answer for me.

    Does it say that you shouldn't kill people in the Quran?

    Did Mohammed ever kill anyone?

    If so, what's up with that?

    Is Mohammed not a true muslim because he broke this command?

    Why exactly is for example a nice peaceful Sufi muslim right and a wahabist terrorist wrong?

    Apart from being wrong in the eyes of Allah (apologies if your interpretation is different to this) why exactly is homosexuality wrong?
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    You know there is only one answer to a thread like this because no one can persuade a firm believer or a firm disbeliever, not even the Prophets so;

    For you your path for me mine.
    "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.Sir George Bernard Shaw

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Poet View Post
    You know there is only one answer to a thread like this because no one can persuade a firm believer or a firm disbeliever, not even the Prophets so;

    For you your path for me mine.
    Hmm, if God does exist it would seem like it would pretty easy for him to convince me of his/her existence.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by In3x View Post
    One thing I've always found funny about religions is how often there own most important rules seems to be broken by some of the most important characters within the scripts.

    This leads naturally to a few question which I hope the muslims on this thread will be kind enough answer for me.

    Does it say that you shouldn't kill people in the Quran?

    Did Mohammed ever kill anyone?

    If so, what's up with that?

    Is Mohammed not a true muslim because he broke this command?

    Why exactly is for example a nice peaceful Sufi muslim right and a wahabist terrorist wrong?

    Apart from being wrong in the eyes of Allah (apologies if your interpretation is different to this) why exactly is homosexuality wrong?
    I'm not sure whether you are really this naive or not thinking through completely about what you are saying? Or trying to get attention (ie trolling). So which is it?

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by KngGilgamesh View Post
    I'm not sure whether you are really this naive or not thinking through completely about what you are saying? Or trying to get attention (ie trolling). So which is it?
    Some people will say that people who kill in the name of their religion are not true followers of said religion. Fair enough you might say, except that lots of the historical figures within these religions have killed people, but they are still seen as part of the religion. I want to know why this is exactly.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by In3x View Post
    Hmm, if God does exist it would seem like it would pretty easy for him to convince me of his/her existence.
    If paper checker does exist, it would be pretty easy for him to help me in cheating, even if it destroys the reason of 'testing me'.
    "I have always held the religion of Muhammad in high estimation because of its wonderful vitality. It is the only religion which appears to me to possess that assimilating capacity to the changing phase of existence which can make itself appeal to every age. I have studied him - the wonderful man and in my opinion far from being an anti-Christ, he must be called the Saviour of Humanity. I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today." 'The Genuine Islam,' Vol. 1, No. 8, 1936.Sir George Bernard Shaw

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by In3x View Post
    Some people will say that people who kill in the name of their religion are not true followers of said religion. Fair enough you might say, except that lots of the historical figures within these religions have killed people, but they are still seen as part of the religion. I want to know why this is exactly.
    As has already been mentioned:
    Quote Originally Posted by Manco View Post
    A lot of No True Scotsman-fallacies here from the Muslim side.
    A critique that can equally be applied to many followers of other religions as well.
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    Mūtam iškunū ana awīlūtim,
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Antony Flew's "Thinking About Thinking" seems to be an interesting book.

    I think I have to place it on my to read list.

    "All true Scotsmen like haggis."
    Reminds me not having had a breakfast till now.

    But Antony Flew's "How to Think Straight: An Introduction to Critical Reasoning" might even be more interesting.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; January 31, 2012 at 02:50 AM.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    Lol you're renouncing Islam because of hijabs and the Saudi justice system? Cool story bro.
    Don't worry, you're just going through a phase right now, you'll get over it. Personally, I think you're just bored out of your mind and you're looking for attention, and what better way to do that than with your last statement. Where do you live? The UAE? The boogeyman Islamist will never get to you there, don't be over-dramatic.
    Nice that you failed to address any of his concerns or questions and instead resorted to personal attacks.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    I dont know where to start, but I have to say that I have always questioned islam, eventhough slightly so before I was 14.
    Only now I started to understand what all of this is, in the past I used to think that those who criticize islam (who I never heard talk, only heard about them through teachers or religious TV shows) do not understand it.
    I thought that hijab really does prevent "falling in sin" but its just a huge hoax, the numebr of women wearing hijab has increased tremendously, but so has the number of molestation cases, everyone has sexual orientations, but we dont see this happening so commonly in non-muslim countries, so are arabs animals? No, it must be the stupid cultural taboos.
    And to make it worse, its women who are blamed for getting molested and raped! They didnt dress modestly! Yep, that must explain it.... Not
    Now, if we say that god exists, then why did he create us like this? Why is "sin" so attractive? Oh it must be the devil.... well then, since hijab prevents the devil from taking over our minds then why do women get molested eventhough they're dressing in full hijab?

    Religious fanatics should be put in mental hospitals, they should be contaminated, they are more damaging than radioactive materials!
    Whats really scary is that muslim parties WILL take over if democracy is allowed in arab countries, it doesnt matter how moderate and liberal they are, they will be the death of us all, I need to escape this part of the world because its all turning into Afghanistan soon and I might be beheaded if anyone knows that Im an atheist, actually this post might be putting my life at a risk!
    Welcome to the world of Spiritual Critical thinking, population: Agnostics, Irreligious, Atheists and Deists.

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by In3x View Post
    Some people will say that people who kill in the name of their religion are not true followers of said religion. Fair enough you might say, except that lots of the historical figures within these religions have killed people, but they are still seen as part of the religion. I want to know why this is exactly.
    I guess that answers my question...
    Mostly because the circumstances were not similar, and because the world is not black and white. Quran has: ...
    "whoever slays a soul, unless it be for murder or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew entire mankind; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept entire mankind alive"
    (Quran 5:32).
    I hope you see the condition, now for comparison, Jainism, the only really unconditionally pacifist religion i am aware of, has 5 great vows (Mahaviras), basically to not (kill, lie, take anything not given, love, or lose Chasity), nor consent to it, nor cause others to do so, without exception. This view never works, there are times when something bad (like lying or even killing) result in something good, examples would be self defense, use of atom bomb in WW2 (debatable), etc. The world is gray usually not black and white.
    Last edited by KngGilgamesh; January 31, 2012 at 02:20 PM.

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Hilarion View Post
    Yes, but can you produce a more objective ranking?
    The best way to battle ''the black figure of crime'' is to ask directly to the people, anonymously and in casual polling.

    The problem with rape is that well... it's a pretty private issue and it heavily differs on definition and perception, from country to country and culture to culture. So, a heavily dedicated Human Rights group can activerly find out an approximate of rapes or ''forced intercourses'' in different countries even when cops and social structures try to deny it, but it takes money and time.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    You seem to be arguing against Islam because of the actions of some of it's followers instead of the religion itself. Would you renounce your gender if you start to dislike actions of people of your gender?
    I probably didnt start this thread right, but its definetly not the actions of "some" of its followers, I have alot of reasons but I chose to give this one because it affected me greatly, the way society views sexual harassment in arab and muslim countries is unacceptable at best, its always the female who is blamed, the male may do whatever he likes without fear of being pointed at or anything, since its the female's fault for being too attractive (ing bull) and no this isnt a problem with some individuals, its a whole society.
    And this sexist culture is caused by islam, I dont care how many times imams will keep repeating that islam equalizes men with women, it clearly doesnt.
    I'll give you some of my grievances towards islam itself anyway: It allows men and women to marry at any age (which I think is just Muhammad's excuse for.. we all know), its homophobic (undeniable), it approves slavery, and most commands make no sense, like why do we need to pray if god doesnt need it and he doesnt care whether we do it or not?

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    I probably didnt start this thread right, but its definetly not the actions of "some" of its followers, I have alot of reasons but I chose to give this one because it affected me greatly, the way society views sexual harassment in arab and muslim countries is unacceptable at best, its always the female who is blamed, the male may do whatever he likes without fear of being pointed at or anything, since its the female's fault for being too attractive (ing bull) and no this isnt a problem with some individuals, its a whole society.
    And this sexist culture is caused by islam, I dont care how many times imams will keep repeating that islam equalizes men with women, it clearly doesnt.
    Then you should renounce Arab culture.


    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    I'll give you some of my grievances towards islam itself anyway: It allows men and women to marry at any age (which I think is just Muhammad's excuse for.. we all know),
    Not sure where you got that idea. The age of marriage is usually accepted as being after the age of puberty.


    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    its homophobic (undeniable),
    I haven't seen any verses from the Quran calling for violence or discrimination against homosexuals, so, no. It's not exactly homophobic.


    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    it approves slavery,
    Islam forces a master to be kind to his slaves and forces ways for a slave to obtain his freedom. Under Quran a slave or a master is equally judged afterlife.


    Quote Originally Posted by garudamon11 View Post
    and most commands make no sense, like why do we need to pray if god doesnt need it and he doesnt care whether we do it or not?
    Quran doesn't actually wants you to pray 5 times a day but 3 times a day. What makes you think that he doesn't care as well? It has many functions but I guess the most import is that it's for remembrance.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    And to add onto Garudamons well thought out points;

    There are certainly Islamic communities which do not practice oppression of women, marriage to 10 year old girls, death to apostates & homosexuals, slavery, intolerance etc. We call it practicing a reformed, liberal, or humanistic Islam and this is certainly better than the Wahhabists or Taliban. But there is a reason we don't call it fundamentalist Islam.

    The fundamentals of Islam are rooted in the 7th century moral system of the Arabian Penisula, a time and place in which all these deplorable things were considered the proper thing to do.

    If liberal Islam is better than fundamental Islam, it strongly suggests there is something wrong with the fundamentals of Islam and something right with the fundamentals of Liberalism. So why try and hang on to Islam at all?
    Last edited by Sphere; January 31, 2012 at 02:43 PM.

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Just because you call something "fundamental" doesn't make it fundamental. Fundamental Islam would be Quranism by definition.
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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkLordSeth View Post
    Not sure where you got that idea. The age of marriage is usually accepted as being after the age of puberty.
    It's not just "usually accepted", it's specifically stated in the Quran.

    Quran doesn't actually wants you to pray 5 times a day but 3 times a day. What makes you think that he doesn't care as well? It has many functions but I guess the most import is that it's for remembrance.
    That's really open to interpretation, the Quran specifically names three but that doesn't necessarily mean it only asks for three.

    Garudamon, it looks like all your issues with Islam are all born of ignorance so far.

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Just because you call something "fundamental" doesn't make it fundamental. Fundamental Islam would be Quranism by definition.
    There are parts of the Quran and Haddith which either command or allow some rather horrible things (As do the Torah and Bible). Granted they also command or allow some rather noble things as well, but my point is if you can reach the noble things through respect for human rights, human dignity, human equality, personal freedom etc. why cling to Islam at all?

    Why use these concepts to interpret/pick-and-choose parts of of the Koran/Haddith instead of just relying on these concepts alone? How does this cultural attachment to a particular religion help you?
    Last edited by Sphere; January 31, 2012 at 02:59 PM.

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    Default Re: I renounce islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    There are parts of the Quran and Haddith which either command or allow some rather horrible things (As do the Torah and Bible). Granted they also command or allow some rather noble things as well, but my point is if you can reach the noble things through respect for human rights, human dignity, human equality, personal freedom etc. why cling to Islam at all?

    Why use these concepts to interpret/pick-and-choose parts of of the Koran/Haddith instead of just relying on these concepts alone?
    I don't care about that subject. That's not what I objected to.

    However, your question is invalid as well. Liberalism is not the ultimate goal and it never existed in a pure form. People always have their own parameters that they wanna be liberal about. Neither pure liberalism nor pure democracy exists. So, a liberal Muslim doesn't have to ignore bits and pieces of Quran.
    Last edited by Setekh; January 31, 2012 at 03:11 PM.
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