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Thread: The Palantiri and The Mirror

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    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default The Palantiri and The Mirror

    The Palantiri and The Mirror

    This is a guide to the Palantiri and The Mirror of Galadriel that were introduced in TATW 3.0. It also contains some related information that may be useful to modders.

    Post 1 = Palantiri
    Post 2 = The Mirror of Galadriel
    Post 3 = information for modders

    ("Palantir" is singular, "Palantiri" is plural. The correct spelling is Palantíri but I don't have that character on my keyboard. Likewise for Barad-dűr.)

    Neither Palantiri nor the Mirror are substitutes for spies and watchtowers. They are both random; you cannot tell them where to look.

    Viewings are displayed in cinematic mode. However, you may still double-click on settlements and characters to see their detail scrolls. While a settlement scroll is open the viewing will pause.

    Sauron in Barad-dur
    Some aspects of the Palantiri are dependant on whether Sauron is currently in Barad-dur. NOTE: this does NOT mean "when Sauron the general/character is in Barad-dur".

    Technically, for most - perhaps all - of the campaign Sauron is just the pope, living in an unreachable location. But from a gameplay perspective the Palantiri and Mirror treat him as hidden within Barad-dur, depending on who currently holds that settlement. Basically: if it is an evil faction then he is there, otherwise he has escaped and is biding his time elsewhere until Barad-dur is recaptured by an evil faction so he may return.

    Isengard is an exception to the "evil faction" rule. Also, if the evil faction is currently not under "Sauron's Protection" (is excommunicated) then Sauron is not in Barad-dur.

    Specifically, if the faction holding Barad-dur is:
    • Mordor, Rhun, Harad, OotMM or OoG - and they are under Sauron's Protection - then Sauron is in Barad-dur
    • any of those factions and they are not under Sauron's Protection then Sauron is not in Barad-dur
    • any other faction - including Isengard - then Sauron is not in Barad-dur



    Palantiri

    Palantiri cast a sweeping gaze across a section of the map. The starting point and the path that it follows are entirely random. However, you may choose whether to view locally or globally; either the starting position will be somewhere closer to this Palantir's home (local) or anywhere on the map (global).

    There are four Palantiri:
    • Anor-stone - Minas Tirith
    • Ithil-stone - Barad-dur
    • Orthanc-stone - Isengard
    • Elostirion-stone - Elostirion

    They are available to use from turn 5. Once used they will not be available again until 5 turns later.

    The Palantir symbol in the bottom-left of screen indicates that a Palantir may be used. When you select one of the Palantir settlements a coloured ring will flash around the symbol:


    • Green or Red - this settlement's Palantir may be used
    • Orange - Palantiri may be used but not from this settlement (e.g. the governor is not authorised)
    • no flashing - either not enough turns have elapsed since the last usage or this is not a Palantir settlement


    The Eye
    When Sauron is in Barad-dur (see above) then he has control of the Ithil-stone, using it for The Eye.

    In this situation:
    • Mordor, Rhun, Harad, OotMM & OoG - if you are playing one of these factions then:
      • If your faction holds Barad-dur then you see what Sauron sees. The indicator flashes red instead of green, indicating "The Eye".
      • You can not use any other Palantir - Sauron forbids it, even if you are not under his Protection. Which in turn means:
        • If one of these AI factions holds Barad-dur then you can not use ANY Palantir.
        • No authorisation is necessary (see below) because your generals can not use the Palantiri.
    • Other factions: when using the Anor-stone or Orthanc-stone you run the risk of making contact with Sauron, an encounter that could permanently scar your general (see below). The Elostirion-stone can not contact other Palantiri; it is safe from Sauron.

    When Sauron is NOT in Barad-dur then he is no longer in control of the Ithil-stone. Mordor, Rhun, Harad, OotMM & OoG may now use any Palantiri in the same way that other factions do...


    Authorisation
    The only character who may use a Palantir is the one with the Palantíri Authorisation ancillary/retinue. For Mordor, Rhun, Harad, OotMM & OoG this is only necessary when Sauron does not control the Ithil-stone (see "The Eye" above).

    The ancillary is transferable: you may drag it onto another general in the same settlement or army. Any general may be given the authorisation and so use the Palantiri - but he must be governor of the settlement at the time.

    For factions who start the campaign holding one of the Palantir settlements, this ancillary is already held by one of the generals. For other factions your faction leader will receive the ancillary the turn after taking ownership of a Palantir settlement.

    If the general who has it dies then it will be given to the faction leader during the following turn (or possibly the turn after that).

    There is a limit of eight ancillary slots per character: make sure that you have a free slot to receive it. You can transfer an ancillary to another character to make space if necessary.

    NOTE: the in-game Help mentions that for the High Elves the ancillary is given to the governor of Elostirion rather than the faction leader. This is not true: it is given to the faction leader just like the other factions.


    How To Use It
    1. Click on the Palantir settlement to select it
    2. The indicator should be flashing:
      • if not then not enough turns have passed (5 turns)
      • orange: your governor is not Authorised, or only the Ithil-stone may be used and this is not Barad-dur (see "They Eye")
      • green/red: you are good to go
    3. If necessary, make sure that the general with the Authorisation ancillary is the governor
    4. Press F3 (or whatever key you have mapped to "Radar: decrease zoom")
    5. A scroll appears asking whether you wish to view locally or globally: click Accept or Decline to choose
    6. The screen goes into cinematic mode and the viewing starts
    7. During the viewing you may double-click on any settlement to pause the viewing
    8. Press ESC to terminate a viewing early
    9. The viewing ends. It will now be 5 turns before another viewing is possible.

    If you hold more than one Palantir settlement then you may perform a viewing from any one of them. But there is still only one Authorised general and the viewing is only available from the settlement that he is in. Plus you must still wait 5 turns between any viewing. Therefore it does not increase your number of viewings, it only gives more options on where to view from.


    Side Effects
    There are risks involved in using the Palantiri. Some of them can be reduced by the viewing general having a stronger will: the "Strong Willed" and "Exceptionally Willed" traits. High command generals tend to get these traits and they may also be passed onto their sons.

    General Use
    Easiest if I just quote King Kong on this one: "...if you would have the power to see things that others don't see, you could get overconfident, megalomaniac, afraid of the things you see or just a little crazy."

    There is a small percent chance of the general receiving bad traits each time he uses a Palantir. The weaker his will the larger the collection of traits and the higher the chances of getting them. Obviously the more times a general performs a viewing the more bad traits he will collect.

    This does not apply to The Eye: for Mordor, Rhun, Harad, OotMM & OoG you will only be affected by this if it is one of your generals doing the viewing (not Sauron as The Eye).

    Sauron's Will
    In addition to the above, if Sauron has command of the Ithil-stone while your general uses the Anor-stone or Orthanc-stone then they will have a contest of wills, potentially leaving your general temporarily exhausted and permanently mentally scarred:
    • He will be "Exhausted" (trait) during the next turn. By how much depends on his Will and how far he had travelled that turn prior to the viewing.
    • If he has no Will then there is a reasonable chance of receiving a collection of bad traits, particularly Insanity and a Fear of Mordor.

    The Elostirion-stone is not affected by this as it cannot communicate with the Ithil-stone.

    Elostirion-stone
    The Elostirion-stone can see The Undying Lands (not in the game). Each time it is used by the High Elves there is a chance that some of their population will leave Middle-earth as a result.

    Will has no effect on this.

    Lore
    A few stretches of the Lore were made for gameplay reasons:
    • The Elostirion-stone only points West; it could not be used to view Middle-earth itself. Needless to say this would be useless for TATW.
    • To my knowledge there is no evidence that using a Palantir would make you crazy (other than wrestling with Sauron). It is possible, of course, but this was added purely as an offset to the Palantiri's benefit.
    • Whether The Eye had anything to so with the Ithil-stone is up for discussion. At best I have only ever found information that suggests that it is likely.


    Credits & Background
    This is essentially a combination of a Palantiri idea that King Kong was working on and The Eye's viewing script from my Remote Viewing submod.

    In the end it was all pretty much rewritten from scratch and then expanded upon. Many of its features are KK's, in concept if not implementation, such as the building images and texts, penalty and Will traits, authorisation and something else that I have purposely neglected to mention.
    Last edited by Withwnar; May 03, 2015 at 01:16 AM.

  2. #2
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    The Mirror of Galadriel

    Situated in Caras Galadhon, the Mirror provides remote viewing in a similar way to the Palantiri. As only Galadriel may use it it is available only to the Silvan Elves.

    (Galadriel is not in TATW - vanilla at least. From this Mirror's point of view if the Silvans own Caras Galadhon then Galadriel is present. Usage of the Mirror does not require a governor or any particular character to be present in this settlement.)

    A Viewing of the Mirror reveals a series of random, fixed location "Visions":
    • Between 4 and 6 Visions per Viewing (random)
    • Between 5 and 7 seconds per Vision (random)
    • 64 possible locations in total
    • A Vision can be skipped with ESC key

    Like the Palantiri it is available to use from turn 5. Once used it will not be available again until 5 turns later. It also uses the same Palantir symbol to indicate when a viewing is possible.

    The Palantiri and the Mirror are independant; using one does not affect the next-usage of the other. So if the Silvans take a Palantir settlement then they will have two remote viewing tools, which may even be used within the same turn if desired.

    There are no side effects from using the Mirror. Just as it is Sauron using The Eye, it is Galadriel using The Mirror and she is sheltered from Sauron's gaze.


    How To Use It
    1. Click on Caras Galadhon to select it
    2. The indicator should be flashing:
      • if not then not enough turns have passed (5 turns)
      • green: you are good to go
    3. Press F3 (or whatever key you have mapped to "Radar: decrease zoom")
    4. The screen goes into cinematic mode and the viewing starts
    5. During the viewing you may double-click on any settlement to pause the viewing
    6. Press ESC to terminate a Vision early: it will skip to the next one
    7. The viewing ends. It will now be 5 turns before another viewing is possible.


    Range
    The range of the Mirror is limited to central Middle-earth: the Silvan realms and their surroundings.



    Credits
    This came from the same submod as The Eye.
    • Louis Lux: the building image was built on one of his Elven buildings
    • jan: MAP OF MIDDLE-EARTH 2.0 - this was extremely helpful in working out the vision locations
    Last edited by Withwnar; March 29, 2012 at 10:42 PM.

  3. #3
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    Information For Modders

    This contains some information that may be of interest to modders.


    Princesses & Merchants
    The original Eye & Mirror submod uses princesses as the viewing 'focus' and kills all princesses in the faction at the end of the viewing.

    Naturally this made the introduction of normal princesses into the campaign impractical, as they would be killed by viewings.

    The Palantiri and Mirror in 3.0 does not do it this way. Instead it uses merchants but it does not kill them.

    If you wish to add princesses or merchants to TATW then they are quite safe. Just be aware that the Palantiri and Mirror use Level 1 Merchants: if you change the character textures for a Level 1 merchant in a faction then the viewing character will no longer be invisible for that faction. (NOTE: "Level 1" meaning the second tier merchant, after Level 0.)


    Hungary = Spawn Pool
    The Unique Name method is used to spawn the viewing characters.

    If you ever have need of spawning a character with a guaranteed-to-be-unique name and/or need script to control him (instead of some other random character with the same name) then I highly recommend reading that topic. Most of the work involved is to set up the spawn pool faction but in TATW this is now already done: Hungary.

    Just beware: the spawning script used by the Palantiri and Mirror is a little out of date. I was still figuring things out when I wrote that script. The thread is up to date with how to do it. e.g. There is no need to use faction_emerge.


    Combat_V_Faction_Papal_States
    The script uses this attribute to identify an authorised-governor-settlement. It assumes that the only means of acquiring this attribute is via the Authorisation ancillary. Another submod giving this attribute to generals could break the Palantir's begin-viewing logic.


    Script Size
    The Palantiri and Mirror script is about 34,000 lines in total. Normally this would be setting off lag time alarm bells but 32,600 of those lines are in one monitor, and that monitor only fires when you manually kick off a viewing. It does not impact turn end times.

    It has no more monitors and triggers than any smallish submod - and no monitor_conditions!


    Viewing Parameters
    The Palantiri have only one gaze per viewing. The original Eye has two and the code to support it is still present in the Palantiri script.

    If you wish to change it then you need only to change this line:

    Code:
    while I_EventCounter pal_view_number <= 1 ;THIS NUMBER CONTROLS HOW MANY GAZES PER VIEWING
    Change that 1 to however many gazes you want.

    Also, it is easy to change the wait times between reuse of the Palantiri and the Mirror. Search for pal_turns_till_next_avail (Palantiri) and rvm_turns_till_next_avail (Mirror) and you will find comments that explain it.


    Location Videos
    Viewings do not trigger any "Location Reached" videos (Regional Videos). They each have a condition that tests the is_remote_viewing counter...

    Code:
    monitor_event TileSeen not FactionType sicily
    	and FactionIsLocal
    	and IsPositionInRect 243 126 2 2
    	and I_CompareCounter is_remote_viewing == 0
    	historic_event reached_tirith event/reached_minas_tirith.bik
    terminate_monitor
    end_monitor
    This counter is set to 1 during viewings and 0 at the end.

    If your submod is likewise placing characters on the map and you wish to avoid video triggering then you can do the same thing with this counter. Just remember to set it back to 0 again otherwise the videos won't trigger when they're supposed to, at least until after the next viewing.
    Last edited by Withwnar; April 10, 2012 at 03:03 AM.

  4. #4
    MasterBigAb's Avatar Valar Morghulis
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror


  5. #5

    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    Fantastic guide. I've been leaving my sole Palantir alone (as Gondor) because i wasn't entirely sure on the benefits and drawbacks -- this article provided all i needed. Thanks!
    Can't seem to rep you though...probably some arbitrary post count required for this

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    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    Was helpful for me, thanks and +rep ofcourse!

  7. #7
    Lethal Jakkson's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    ahhh rite so thas how they work thanks i fort i mite not ever use 1 or the other kept pressing f1 an my laptop kept thinking i had a projector lol wot a wallie
    Working for myself for 3years and still finding time to play Total War

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    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    if i get all the palantirs under my control,lets say like eriador,my general faction leader eill receive some kind of bonus or something like that at least?
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    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    No. If your realm already stretches from Elostirion to Barard-dur then I'm not sure that he would need any further bonuses. It would be a nice touch though: I'm sure that Sauron would be interested in collecting all four.

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    Mhaedros's Avatar Brave Heart Tegan
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    I'm not so sure he would (lorewise) If he only controls one, he's got a chance to corrupt the people with the others, without coming near them IRL
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  11. #11
    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    well with Eriador and Aragorn i have all 3 except Barad dur stone,but think if u have all 3 or even 4 then u ncould use one with the effect of all or 3 and have a look in the map,especially if sauron is destroyed then u can see anything across the line elostorion isen Minas tirith barad dur,that could be nice
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    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    another idea,what if all the palantirs are in the hands of the good side,mustnt then have some free look between them?
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  13. #13
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    What do you mean by "free look"? They could communicate with each other (except for the Elostirion stone) ... something to do with that?

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    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    From Silmarilion

    Now these Stones had this virtue that those who looked therein might perceive in them things far off,
    whether in place or in time. For the most part they revealed only things near to another kindred Stone, for the Stones
    each called to each; but those who possessed great strength of will and of mind might learn to direct their gaze whither
    they would. Thus the Númenóreans were aware of many things that their enemies wished to conceal, and little escaped
    their vigilance in the days of their might.
    from The Unfinished Tales of Middle Earth and Numenor
    Alone the

    palantíri could only "see:" they did not transmit sound. Ungoverned by a directing mind
    they were wayward, and their "visions" were (apparently at least) haphazard. From a high place their
    westward face, for instance, would look to vast distance, its vision blurred and distorted to either side and
    above and below, and its foreground obscured by things behind receding in ever-diminishing clarity. Also,
    what they "saw" was directed or hindered by chance, by darkness, or by "shrouding" (see below). The vision
    of the

    palantíri was not "blinded" or "occluded" by physical obstacles, but only by darkness; so they could
    look

    through a mountain as they could look through a patch of dark or shadow, but see nothing within that
    did not receive some light. They could see through walls but see nothing within rooms, caves, or vaults
    unless some light fell on it; and they could not themselves provide or project light. It was possible to guard
    against their sight by the process called "shrouding," by which certain things or areas would be seen in a
    Stone only as a shadow or a deep mist. How this was done (by those aware of the Stones and the possibility
    of being watched by them) is one of the lost mysteries of the
    palantíri. 18



    A viewer could by his will cause the vision of the Stone to


    concentrate on some point, on or near its
    direct line.

    19 The uncontrolled "visions" were small, especially in the minor Stones, though they were much
    larger to the eye of a beholder who placed himself at some distance from the surface of the

    palantír (about
    three feet at best). But controlled by the will of a skilled and strong surveyor, remoter things could be
    enlarged, brought as it were nearer and clearer, while their background was almost suppressed. Thus a man at
    a considerable distance might be seen as a tiny figure, half an inch high, difficult to pick oat against a
    landscape or a concourse of other men; but concentration could enlarge and clarify the vision till he was seen
    in clear if reduced detail like a picture apparently a foot or more in height, and recognized if he was known
    to the surveyor. Great concentration might even enlarge some detail that interested the surveyor, so that it
    could be seen (for instance) if he had a ring on his hand.



    But this "concentration" was very tiring and might become exhausting. Consequently it was only
    undertaken when information was urgently desired, and chance (aided by other information maybe) enabled
    the surveyor to pick out items (significant for him and his immediate concern) from the welter of the Stone's
    visions. For example, Denethor sitting before the Anor-stone anxious about Rohan, and deciding whether or
    not at once to order the kindling of the beacons and the sending out of the "arrow," might place himself in a
    direct line looking north-west by west through Rohan, passing close to Edoras and on towards the Fords of
    Isen. At that time there might be visible movements of men in that line. If so, he could concentrate on (say) a
    group, see them as Riders, and finally discover some figure known to him: Gandalf, for instance, riding with
    the reinforcements to Helm's Deep, and suddenly breaking away and racing northwards.
    20

    The


    palantíri could not themselves survey men's minds, at unawares or unwilling; for the transference
    of thought depended on the

    wills of the user on either side, and thought (received as speech) 21 was only
    transmittable by one Stone to another in accord.


    notes


    18 The later note referred to in note 17 treats some of these aspects the


    palantíri slightly differently; in particular
    particular the concept "shrouding" seems differently employed. This note, very hasty and somewhat obscure,
    reads in part: "They retained the images received, so that each contained within itself a multiplicity of images
    and scenes, some from a remote past. They could not 'see' in the dark; that is, things that were in the dark were
    not recorded by them. They themselves could be and usually were kept in the dark, because it was much easier
    then to see the scenes that they presented, and as the centuries passed to limit their 'overcrowding.' How they
    were thus 'shrouded' was kept secret and so is now unknown. They were not 'blinded' by physical obstacles, as a
    wall, a hill, or a wood, so long as the distant objects were themselves in light. It was said, or guessed, by later
    commentators that the Stones were placed in their original sites in spherical cases that were locked to prevent
    their misuse by the unauthorized; but that this casing also performed the office of shrouding them and making
    them quiescent. The cases must therefore have been made of some metal or other substance not now known."
    Marginal jottings associated with this note are partly illegible, but so much can be made out, that the remoter the
    past the clearer the view, while for distant viewing there was a "proper distance," varying with the Stones, at
    which distant objects were clearer. The greater

    palantíri could look much further than the lesser; for the lesser
    the "proper distance" was of the order of five hundred miles, as between the Orthanc-stone and that of Anor.
    "Ithil was too near, but was largely used for [illegible words], not for personal contacts with Minas Anor."
    19 The orientation was not, of course, divided into separate "quarters" but continuous; so that its

    direct line of
    vision to a surveyor sitting south-east would be to the north-west, and so on. [Author's note.]
    20 See

    The Two Towers III 7.
    21 In a detached note this aspect is more explicitly described: "Two persons, each using a Stone 'in accord' with the
    other, could converse, but not by sound, which the Stones did not transmit. Looking one at the other they would
    exchange 'thought' – not their full or true thought, or their intentions, but 'silent speech,' the thoughts they
    wished to transmit (already formalized in linguistic form in their minds or actually spoken aloud), which would
    be received by their respondents and of course immediately transformed into 'speech,' and only reportable as
    such."

    Last edited by dannyalex; February 29, 2012 at 12:21 AM.
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  15. #15
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    Wow. Excellent quotes.

    500 mile limit huh? We might have to overlook that one. So to speak.

    Interesting. So 'by default' they would see the surroundings of the other stones. That's doable: reveal the surroundings of those settlements but it is a question of when? It could only be during a viewing. One option is that in addition to the random viewing you are snapped to those revealed settlements for a short duration. That could work.

    Also, perhaps a character with high enough will could see everything in a direct line between the stones.

    Only the three though, I think. The Elostirion-stone should remain incommunicado.

  16. #16
    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    thats the point see my message
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  17. #17

    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    So I am playing as silvian Elves - where the hell is Galadriel to be able to use the Mirror?

    Does she come later?

  18. #18
    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    galadriel isnt at the game man....u have celeborn for that....read post 2
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  19. #19
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    Only Galadriel may use it; it is available only to the Silvan Elves.
    That is a bit obscure perhaps. I meant "in Tolkien's world only Galadriel may use it therefore in the game it is only available to the Silvan Elves".

    Celeborn doesn't need to be the user/governor.

    I'll update the info.

  20. #20
    Withwnar's Avatar Script To The Waist
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    Default Re: The Palantiri and The Mirror

    By the way, there is a submod that enhances the Palantiri and Mirror experience: Palantiri Revision.

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