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Thread: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

  1. #141
    Akaie's Avatar Sangi Ukon'e no Chūjō
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    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center



    This particular kabuto was uploaded by evalerio over at the Samurai Archives. One of the best historians on their forums, I'd say. In general, I've seen a few other pics attributing the armour set to Kenshin and then you have CA backed up by Turnbull.

    ...I really need to learn Japanese to a more comprehensive extent and get stuck into their texts. I don't like being reliant upon english sources .

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  2. #142

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    I doubt so, those kind of very complex kabuto came later. More a Edo period. But I havn't find any proof in either way. The relative info are only in Japanese and I can't read it.

    This armor belonged to Kenshin, see the differences ? And Kenshin is known to be somewhat sober in his tastes. Ecxept when it comes to sake.
    Attachment 205697

    Maybe the set in the game was made later to honour Kenshin and offered to a shrine. A lot of shrines pretend to own armor used by Kenshin, Shingen and Nobunaga but without any proof to back their claims.
    Last edited by yoshisuke; February 19, 2012 at 10:35 AM.

  3. #143

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Something I found that's supposed to be Kenshin's nanban-do armour. Thoughts?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Take this one for what you will but.. one of Kenshin's kabuto apparently
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Haven't seen this posted so here it is: Mori Ranmaru
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Tokugawa Hidetada
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Sanada Yukimura
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Kuroda Hanbei
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Robin de Bodemloze; February 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM.
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  4. #144
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    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Has CA made any armor of Kuki Yoshitaka, Kuki Moritaka, Wakisaka Yasuharu in S2TW?

  5. #145

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    The Kenshin's nanban-do armor is from the movie "ten to chi to" which is far from being a reliable history source. So this armor was just made for the movie. Kenshin was a traditionalist in many ways and probably woudn't have worn an european armor.
    The second kabuto well.. I have no Idea.
    Ranmaru's is great, I love that maedate, simple and classy.
    But Hidetada's and Yukimura's are just bad copies. I posted a pic of Hidetada's one in this topic, if I remember right and for Yuki.. well, I'm yet to see any proof of a red armor with horns. Many copies are circulating but I have never, ever seen at least one legit pic of an early edo period red armor with any link to the Sanada family.
    Hanbei's kabuto was surely very beautiful in it's full glory. But it's better to see an item like this rather than badly restored one.

  6. #146

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Glad you liked Ranmaru and Hanbei's kabuto The other ones were a bit of a stretch I agree...

    I can't help but think Hanbei's one looks like an upside-down tea cup though
    Last edited by Robin de Bodemloze; February 19, 2012 at 09:24 PM.
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  7. #147
    Akaie's Avatar Sangi Ukon'e no Chūjō
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    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Reminds me of that "Communism: It's a Party" pic... The tea cup kabuto is the feudal japanese version of the lampshade

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  8. #148
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    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Damn.....I want that 6 coins maedate for the Sanada, surely something exists within the files?

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
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  9. #149

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Quote Originally Posted by robinzx View Post
    I can't help but think Hanbei's one looks like an upside-down tea cup though
    This kabuto from the Stibbert museum in Firenze is in the shape of a upside-down gosu (lacquer bowl).
    So why not a tea cup ?

    Attachment 205867

  10. #150
    Akaie's Avatar Sangi Ukon'e no Chūjō
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    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    For those who are interested, I have quoted all of yoshisuke's posts containing a large variety of armour sets and kabuto's in the first post of this thread. I also have the letter Naoe wrote regarding the dissolving situation between the Uesugi and Tokugawa quoted there; I wouldn't mind some additional sources regarding that letter if anyone can come up with them.

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  11. #151

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    I've been busy IRL lately and i come back to see that, I'm honored, Anton, and always pleased to see i can help in a way or another. I will try to find some more interesting pics for all of you to see.

  12. #152

    Default Re: Your favourite major clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wetblowdryer View Post
    I'm the only one who voted for Ishida?
    Well, you must be the only fan of a self-centered coward politician in a world of honourable warriors. (there's an ironical joke somewhere in there..)
    Last edited by yoshisuke; February 27, 2012 at 06:16 PM.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Your favourite major clan

    Well , class me into the Anti-Tokugawa crowd

    My favourite clan is Sanada , Sanada Masayuki , what an intelligent resourceful general , and great man leader like his son Nobushige (Yukimura) , close to his people and popular among them . His son was a remarkable example of spirit of bravery , dedication , loyalty and humanity as well .

    There is also something in Otani Yoshitsugu (whose daughter married Yukimura ) i like , he knew Sekigahara would be lost , he knew Ishida Mistunari 's plan was doomed , he knew he was about to die , but he went for it anyway , pure bushi spirit , made his death purposeful , stayed loyal to the Taiko till the last moment , was always exemplary wherever he fought .

    Konishi Yukinaga was also something , but he's not in the game , so it's OT

    Otherwise , i guess i like Kuroda Yoshitaka (Josui) , friend of Takayama Ukon (who had a fascinating life ) , he supported the Tokugawa in the end , but more because he couldn't stand Mitsunari and thought Tokugawa had the best chances , than genuine allegiance to Ieyasu , his lands were at stake after all . But he was quite a character , astute , open minded , very competent as a field general , and a wise leader . Wouldn't have minded serving under him lol

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Your favourite major clan

    TOKUGAWAAAA...!

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Your favourite major clan

    Quote Originally Posted by Wetblowdryer View Post
    I'm the only one who voted for Ishida?


    I feel for you , even Yodo-gimi didn't help him financially prior to Sekigahara , then surely regretted it badly a few years later when Ieyasu showed his true face

    I'm with you in spirit , Ishida staked all his wealth and his clan's future to defend the Taiko's honour , sadly for him , he was resented by the wrong men , and the Mori who used him like a pawn , ended up losing pretty much everything through their cowardice in the build up of Sekigahara (Terumoto meh ! ) .

    Mitsunari should have made sure the Mori were in first lines but time didn't permit this , the poor guy was used as a scapegoat in the end , betrayed by Kikkawa-Mori and Kobayakawa , surely he was not a saint himself , but he's one of the few who remained loyal to the Taiko until the end in my opinion

    Even Fukushima Masanori probably regretted it badly afterwards , he basically did most of the job at Sekigahara in the name of the Toyotomi , and then ended up with only 45.000 koku some years later ...

    Poor Mitsunari was never understood , a great schemer , so it was easy to depict him as bad person who did that for himself , but the fact is when he started his rebellion against Ieyasu , he had little chances , he was not young , he was not rich or powerful , had few allies , in my opinion the loyalty to the Taiko was a great part of his motivation , he knew what Ieyasu was up to after Hideyoshi's death . The Toyotomi and Mori clans made wrong calculations , didn't realize it was now or never then lost everything in the end .


    But yeah , he's not glamorous , never distinguished himself particularly on the battlefield , and got utterly mauled in the end , so it's understandable not many will vote for him

  16. #156
    The Useless Member's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Your favourite major clan

    Quote Originally Posted by yoshisuke View Post
    Well, you must be the only fan of a self-centered coward politician in a world of honourable warriors. (there's an ironical joke somewhere in there..)
    I only like them because there name sounds cool and they have an awesome banner.

  17. #157

    Default Re: Your favourite major clan

    Well, most of the best and more loyals Toyotomi retainers didn't turn against him for no reason. He did the wrong calculation when he supported his nephew and called the Generals in korea 'cowards'.
    He had it coming. I don't like Tokugawa Ieyasu either but he was clever enough for capitalizing on this.
    Anyway, history being written by the winners we will probably never know the precises motivations of Mitsunari but as I see it, he went to war against Ieyasu to save his ass. They were the two most important people of the country at this time and one had to be destoyed either politicaly or phisicaly. Status quo was not an option.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoshisuke View Post
    Well, most of the best and more loyals Toyotomi retainers didn't turn against him for no reason. He did the wrong calculation when he supported his nephew and called the Generals in korea 'cowards'.
    He had it coming. I don't like Tokugawa Ieyasu either but he was clever enough for capitalizing on this.
    Anyway, history being written by the winners we will probably never know the precises motivations of Mitsunari but as I see it, he went to war against Ieyasu to save his ass. They were the two most important people of the country at this time and one had to be destoyed either politicaly or phisicaly. Status quo was not an option.

    To be honest , i don't agree with you here

    Ishida and the other go-bugyo or commissioners entrusted by Hideyoshi were militarily weak , none had sizeable power , Mitsunari was really powerless , he basically had Sawayama castle and a few land around , Ieyasu had 3.2 million koku domain and many powerful vassals .

    Ishida could adopt a low profile like Maeda Toshie and other former high profile retainers of Hideyoshi , but by the time of Sekigahara , Mitsunari was actually marginalized and resented by Fukushima Masanori , Kuroda Nagamasa and Ikeda Terumasa * (who were strong militarily and could have made a difference had they not sided with Ieyasu ) among others , after his attempt of assassination on Ieyasu , he was confined and could hardly grant an audience to Osaka 's lady Yodo , he was really isolated .

    Yet he did not choose to adopt a low profile like others , and accept that Ieyasu was inevitably going to rule the country as he was the richest and more powerful clan . After all , many former Toyotomi or Oda vassals thought that Ieyasu was the last "great" of the Nobunaga days , he fought hard at Anegawa as the vanguard of Oda troops , acted as a shield against the Takeda in the darkest times at Mikatagahara , fought the Ishiyama Hongwanji with the Oda , sacrificed his wife and son Nobuyasu for Nobunaga , and resisted Hideyoshi at Nagakute .. then was assigned by Hideyoshi to keep the peace until Hideyori come of age . So for some former Toyotomi vassals , Ieyasu was legitimate .

    But for Mitsunari , the Taiko was everything , both Mistunari and Ieyasu gave their word to Hideyoshi on his death bed and before , the difference is Mitsunari owed everything to the Taiko , he was nothing without him . When he started to form an alliance against Ieyasu , everyone scorned him including the Toyotomi , it's only when Ieyasu left Osaka to march on Aizu (Kagekatsu was one of the few who dared to stand to Ieyasu at that moment ) that the Mori and others started to hesitate and calculate that Mitsunari 's scheme was not so silly after all , although none had the spine to commit fully to it (and only after sekigahara , that they realized they would have better helped Mitsunari after all ..) , but if you look at the "deal" between the western alliance , had they won at Sekigahara , Mitsunari was not going to gain some lands , Mori Terumoto would get all the credit and leadership until Toyotomi Hideyori would come of age .

    Mitsunari was sacrificed , after Sekigahara , Mori Terumoto asked Ieyasu for keeping his lands , arguing that he never supported Ishida Mitsunari and did not fight Ieyasu troops ... Of course Ieyasu reduced his fief to 300.000 koku down from 1 million , allowed him to keep only Aki . Mori and Toyotomi used Mitsunari like a pawn , had he won , they would take all the credit , had he lost , they would claim they had nothing to do with him and that he was an usurper looking to take over (Ieyasu did not buy it of course , but still ) .

    Basically , i would agree Ishida did this also by ambition and hoping he would get some prestige and a better political position in case of victory , but on the other hand , when he started his plot , he sacrificed everything , family , land and life for a fight that everybody thought it was lost in advance , including his good friend Otani Yoshitsugu . He could have resigned himself to bow to Ieyasu , he would have kept his lands , his house and family , but he did not , so i strongly suspect there was something else that explains the assassination attempt and such obsession to prevent Ieyasu from taking over the country , in my opinion it was linked to the Taiko , but i respect your opinion as well

    * EDIT : Sorry , not Ikeda Terumasa but Kato Kiyomasa , Ikeda fought Ieyasu at Nagakute but married in the Tokugawa afterwards , whereas Kato was more likely to side with the Toyotomi , but he and his friend Nagamasa despised Ishida Mitsunari ( who rose through the ranks without distinguishing himself on the battlefield and was outspoken during the Imjin war ) , so sided with Tokugawa in the end
    Last edited by DeMolay; February 28, 2012 at 03:09 PM.

  19. #159

    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    And I still disagree with you.
    First, I don't believe in the 'loyalty to the end' apart few generals who were linked to their lords for some reasons. But as soon as a general gain rank and become a daimyo on his own, his interests gain the upper hand. See the Kato, Todo, Fukushima for example if loyalty was that important they would have sided with Mitsunari but they were clever enough to see that he would have never been able to rule the whole country, so supporting the other side was the best way to make profit.
    Ishida Mitsunari was probably a skilled politician and was important as the "leader" of the go-bugyo. This role is the only legitimacy he had, without the Toyotomi behind him, he is nothing, so protecting the clan is in his interest. Ieyasu saved him when Masanori and Kiyomasa ploted to assassinate him. Why ? Because in order to gain the support of Toyotomi retainers in a campaign against the Toyotomi clan he needed a puppet, he waited for Mitsunari to make his move and and used it to legitimate a violent answer.
    And ishida played his role perfectly. He really had no choice. Ieyasu hated him so if the Tokugawa managed to take control of the country he would be over. If a war started between the Toyotomi Loyalist and Ieyasu, and if Ieyasu was to be defeated, the Toyotomi loyalist (who hated him too) would have most likely had him executed. So he did the only thing he could, he went to war against the Tokugawa to protect the only thing that would make him keap his rank and kokus.
    So everything he did, he did for his interest. Loyalty at this point is nothing but a political tool. He owed everything to Hideyoshi, yes, but it doesn't mean anything.
    Hideyoshi owed everything to the Oda clan and he massacred most of the Oda senior retainers. Ieyasu was supposedly lowal to the Oda too, and who killed the last members of the Oda family ? The Tokugawa forces at the start of the Seki campaign.
    In the samurai world loyalty is good as long as it serves both the lord and the retainer, as soon as the balance id broken, loyalty doesn't mean anything anymore.

  20. #160
    DeMolay's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

    Fair point Yoshisuke , good post , i guess the point of our disagreement is that you think Ishida would have lost everything had Ieyasu just continued to increase his grip on the power after Hideyoshi' death and Mitsunari kept a low profile and did not object to it . To be honest , i have trouble to believe that because i've not yet seen an indication supporting this , but i respect your opinion of course

    Basically since Ishida was not a high profile daymio , was poor (basically just Sawayama-jo and its surroundings) and just had a title of bugyo that was only honorary and didn't pose a military threat to Ieyasu (but was more of a political nuisance ) , i think he wouldn't have lost anything . Sure he was not on great term with Ieyasu before Hideyoshi's death (they really became enemies after Ishida tried to assassinate Ieyasu ) but other former Toyotomi vassals who ruled more lands and were more of a threat had much more to fear in my opinion

    When you say that Ishida was torn between " Toyotomi loyalists" and Tokugawa supporters , i think it is correct , however this was after Mitsunari attempted to assassinate Ieyasu , so IMHO it can't be used as a full justification of Ishida previous and later actions and desire to risk everything to prevent Ieyasu from marginalizing the Toyotomi house , secondly it was only 3 or 4 of his old enemies who wanted him dead (Fukushima , Kuroda , Kato mainly ) , they wanted him dead even before he tried to assassinate Ieyasu (as he dared criticize them pubicly during the Imjin war ) .

    But i agree with you , that consequently Ieyasu used Mitsunari like a puppet , he knew he was a man extremely loyal to the Taiko and wouldn't stay idle , so he saved his life despite knowing about the assassination attempt , hoping that Mitsunari would try something again or rebel , so that Ieyasu gets the perfect excuse to start a takeover , as the saying goes , it's better to have an enemy you know well (and in this case a weak enemy , until the big boys started to listen to his strategy and plot )

    Also the other thing i don't really agree is that you say that loyalty is a political tool and doesn't mean anything to Mitsunari , it's right in absolute term IMO (much of Sengoku is about betrayals and unexpected plots ) , but there are many examples where loyalty played a large role to motivate actions ( especially rebellions ) , to stay in the Sekigahara era , the action of Otani Yoshitsugu for instance who joined Ishida thinking they had no chance whatsoever to make it alive , friendship , loyalty and death approaching for Yoshitsugu was likely to be the main motivation , rather than any calculation based on profit .

    If you look at the Osaka siege for instance , the Sanada , Chosokabe , Goto etc .. these guys were not there for the gain , but for the loyalty mainly ( and fame , posterity etc maybe ) , although of course if they had won , they would have gotten some lands , but they were perfectly aware of the totally desperate situation , so i highly doubt material gain or political ambition was the point of their commitment , like in Mitsunari 's case , but that is just my opinion


    I think apart from the Mori-Kikkawa (who were reluctant Toyotomi vassals anyway ) and Kobayakawa (who also resented Mitsunari since he was outspoken in Korea against him and other generals , perhaps also linked with the massacres that happened there , who knows he was an unexperienced teenager so perhaps did not have control of his men or was badly advised ) , the ones who made the calculations were for most of them on the Tokugawa side , it's unclear what Ukita Hideie was about to gain at Sekigahara , yet he stood through thick and thin , Naoe Kanetsugu could easily defect to the Tokugawa had he considered only the survival of his house and increase of his domain as he was surrounded and badly outnumbered (he was lucky to survive really ) , same for Kagekatsu , he despised Ieyasu with a passion and did not back down although his objective interest was to stay on good terms with the Tokugawa , which prompted him after Sekigahara to offer apologies but it was too late .


    But it's true that generally speaking , loyalty was the least of concerns for most Sengoku daymios . I also agree with you about Hiedyoshi and Ieyasu actions post Nobunaga's death ( although to be fair , Ieyasu was never a vassal of Nobunaga but an ally and had reasons to resent the Oda since he had to kill his wife and son at some point to avoid being invaded ) , when you rule by fear like Nobunaga did and use force to resolve almos every matter ( Hiei , Ise Nagashima etc ) , such was meant to happen .

    The difference IMHO is that Nobunaga didn't really have loyal vassals due to his style of leadership (brutal rule , put high profile retainers in competition and under constant pressure , very short temper , awarding little in land etc ) and late life actions (like becoming a living deity , demoting some vassals for no objective reasons like Hayashi Michikatsu , Sakuma and others , living isolated in Azuchi and far from his retainers .. ) , apart from the old timers like Shibata Katsuie , Niwa , Maeda and perhaps Hideyoshi

    Whereas Hideyoshi had in the course of his life forged some strong relationship with his retainers like Yamauchi , Kato , Ishida etc .. , he created strong bonds with his vassals , not hesitating to use marriages or generous land grant , which in the end did not help him much , but some of them like Ishida proved worthy of his trust in my humble opinion , but again i want to stress i respect your opinion because you are not isolated to think like this , it is basically the official Tokugawa version to think that Mitsunari was just an imposter who did that all for himself and disgraced the Toyotomi (of course i now you don't think like that , i'm sort of caricaturing/simplifying the view that presents Ishida like the bad guy )


    On another note , i will receive the book you told me about very soon , the one of Mitsuo Kure , i cannot thank you enough , i'm all excited
    Last edited by DeMolay; March 03, 2012 at 01:39 PM.

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