The Sekigahara Campaign - Historical Research Center

[Robin de Bodemloze]

I wonder if Kuroda actually wore that helmet when/if he fought, it seems rather... difficult.

Perhaps it was a pact of every prominent samurai; 'we ALL wear encumbering helmets!'

Maybe it's like the handicap system in golf...maybe that's why the most badass daimyo had the craziest helmets

[The_Nord]

Yeah I know Maeda Toshiie's and Kato Kiyomasa's helmets were made using that harikake, if they were iron or something they would be way, way too heavy for actual use.

[atza]

Hi, First off I'd like to tell you how excited I am for your mod, I have frequently scanned this site before, but never actually became a member until 5 minutes ago as a result of your up and coming mod, My small piece of advice is more along the lines of historical realism: it was very common for the musket and bow troops to do a few Volley's and then charge into the fray, so I think it would be interesting, and more historically accurate if you made them more capable fighters , thanks! I hope you consider my advice, and again, great mod idea!

[Akaie]

Hey, mate. Welcome to the forum!

We've had the idea of a hybrid archer-melee unit bouncing around both in the gen discussion thread and in my mind, but we haven't really reached a consensus on the matter. Be sure to keep providing your opinion, as I'm actively trying to have the mod's development influenced by as many opinions as possible.

On another matter, I now have two people saying they signed up because of The Sekigahara Campaign. Brilliant !

[kujirakira]

I looked into Kuroda's kabuto a bit as I seem to recall having seen a different one in Fukuoka (looks more stereotypical bull horns)
This seems to suggest the one pictured wasn't necessarily for battle...
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jf/200...roda_24ki.html

But then I found this reference which states it very clearly
"　この像は、その関ヶ原の戦に出陣する長政を描いたものです。"
This picture was drawn on the occasion of Kuroda Nagamasa departing for Sekigahara battle"
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jg/htm...hozohin/44.htm

You can also find more on the swords.
The top one is a katana -- with a gold inlay saying it's for the Kuroda Lord of Chikuzen (Fukuoka)
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jf/200.../katana01.html

The bottom is a long sword which belonged to Nagamasa's father, Takenaka
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jf/200.../katana02.html

Would love to know more about that spear though -- I was going to say it looks like a hell of a museum piece, but remembered that it is a museum piece =/

[kujirakira]

edit: That should be his father, 黒田孝高 Kuroda Yoshitaka (not Takenaka)... my brain is getting twisted on names sorry =/

[atza]

My favorite aspect about this era was the colorfulness in character that the generals had, My favorite was always Kuroda Yoshitaka/Kanbei/Josui (I've heard all three names), he was a great schemer. He pledged allegiance to the Oda while they were gaining power becoming a senior military general, In 1587 (ish) he helped spearhead the Toyotomi campaign of Kyushu, for political reasons he converted to Christianity, the same year, he converted back to buddhism because he didn't like the fact that the Jesuits had so much influence, fearing that they could eventually take power, he banished many christian missionaries, and forced his generals to convert to Buddhism. Ironically he still sided with the christian west (toyotomi) in the sekigahara campaign. Durring (or around) the battle of sekigahara he tried to take military control of all Kyushu, owned primarily by the Shimazu, who were (i think) sort of like a protectorate/ally of the Toyotomi. Somehow this was not considered an act of war/treason because he eventually came back to command for the Toyotomi after the battle of Sekigahara (his son was a high ranking Commander of the east/Tokugawa at the time), another funny thing, he was willing to accept bribes of states/regions (koku?) from the Tokugawa in exchange for his support even while he was with the Toyotomi. At one point in time he was considered the wild card decider of the whole campaign (if my memory serves me well). All in all he was (in my opinion) an important and very colorful character in this period. (Sorry that was so long winded!)

[Akaie]

This is turning out to be a pretty productive thread .

I looked into Kuroda's kabuto a bit as I seem to recall having seen a different one in Fukuoka (looks more stereotypical bull horns)
This seems to suggest the one pictured wasn't necessarily for battle...
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jf/200...roda_24ki.html

But then I found this reference which states it very clearly
"　この像は、その関ヶ原の戦に出陣する長政を描いたものです。"
This picture was drawn on the occasion of Kuroda Nagamasa departing for Sekigahara battle"
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jg/htm...hozohin/44.htm

You can also find more on the swords.
The top one is a katana -- with a gold inlay saying it's for the Kuroda Lord of Chikuzen (Fukuoka)
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jf/200.../katana01.html

The bottom is a long sword which belonged to Nagamasa's father, Takenaka
http://museum.city.fukuoka.jp/jf/200.../katana02.html

Would love to know more about that spear though -- I was going to say it looks like a hell of a museum piece, but remembered that it is a museum piece =/

Nice stuff! Judging by your second translation, I assume you read Japanese? Would you happen to know if there's any solid internet resource - or even physical resources if you have them - regarding Kanetsugu's letter? I brought it up a short way up in this thread, but all I have to reference that is general descriptions and a small snippet .

My favorite aspect about this era was the colorfulness in character that the generals had, My favorite was always Kuroda Yoshitaka/Kanbei/Josui (I've heard all three names), he was a great schemer. He pledged allegiance to the Oda while they were gaining power becoming a senior military general, In 1587 (ish) he helped spearhead the Toyotomi campaign of Kyushu, for political reasons he converted to Christianity, the same year, he converted back to buddhism because he didn't like the fact that the Jesuits had so much influence, fearing that they could eventually take power, he banished many christian missionaries, and forced his generals to convert to Buddhism. Ironically he still sided with the christian west (toyotomi) in the sekigahara campaign. Durring (or around) the battle of sekigahara he tried to take military control of all Kyushu, owned primarily by the Shimazu, who were (i think) sort of like a protectorate/ally of the Toyotomi. Somehow this was not considered an act of war/treason because he eventually came back to command for the Toyotomi after the battle of Sekigahara (his son was a high ranking Commander of the east/Tokugawa at the time), another funny thing, he was willing to accept bribes of states/regions (koku?) from the Tokugawa in exchange for his support even while he was with the Toyotomi. At one point in time he was considered the wild card decider of the whole campaign (if my memory serves me well). All in all he was (in my opinion) an important and very colorful character in this period. (Sorry that was so long winded!)

Now that is cool.

Personally, I sympathize with Ukita Hideie. It's easy to overlook him in many respects, as the Ukita are no where near as famous as the Date or the Takeda. Even bringing the largest western force and the second largest overall (second to Ieyasu himself) to the Battle of Sekigahara is not a huge draw point for me. What I found interesting is that he spend the majority of his life in exile. Not only that, but at some point it wasn't even forced upon him. All out of what I figure to be his sheer annoyance of seeing a Tokugawa ruled country.

he was willing to accept bribes of states/regions (koku?)

Lucky he wasn't a spartan...

"Are you corrupt and treacherous or are you just happy to see me?"

[kujirakira]

This is turning out to be a pretty productive thread .



Nice stuff! Judging by your second translation, I assume you read Japanese? Would you happen to know if there's any solid internet resource - or even physical resources if you have them - regarding Kanetsugu's letter? I brought it up a short way up in this thread, but all I have to reference that is general descriptions and a small snippet .

I can read enough to get by, not enough to translate historical documents (kind of like reading Shakespeare in a foreign language in Shakespeare's handwriting.)
Looked around a little and found the current location of the letter here:
http://www.untouan.com/category/1268851.html
Not very good pictures though.

There's also a 720P video of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMXLRFmO5do

You can see from the video that it's almost like a bullet-point accusation outlining Ieyasu's transgressions.
I couldn't find an English translation yet, but I would be shocked if nobody has translated it. The question I suppose is where to start in finding said translation, I've got a few questions shot across emails but I don't want to get anybody's hopes up either.

[kujirakira]

I remembered by chance that NHK's Taiga on Naoe Kanetsugu from a few years ago read the letter in it's entirety. As the drama is subtitled by NHK into English every year, it was a matter of figuring out which episode it was.
The reading of the letter takes up most of Episode 37.

Torrent link removed for ToS' sake.

Otherwise I've transcribed it already from their subtitles. According to the drama, the letter wasn't just sent to Ieyasu but to the 5 Ministers (Mori, Ukita, Tokugawa, Maeda, & Uesugi themselves) and the 5 Counselors (includes Ishida, Fukushima, Naoe himself, don't remember the others off the top of my head) that were supposed to be keeping things on an even keel while Hideyoshi's son was still young.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Naoe-jo

For one, regarding the various explanations ...
I hear you have your suspicions on the various rumors about Aizu.
As much as I can't blame you for it, I'm sure you will hear of the truth eventually. It is truly regrettable that you should feel that my lord, Kagekatsu, has not spent enough days in Kyoto. The Uesugi had just transferred fiefs two years ago. If we keep going to Kyoto, we'll not be able to administer government in our province. To accuse Kagekatsu of treason based on that is extremely wrong. I would like to see the face of the shallow-minded fellow who spread such rumors.
You demand a written pledge to prove no treacherous intent, but what does the written pledge we have submitted already signify? Kagekatsu is known throughout the lands to be an upright man. He has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I am surprised that someone as great as yourself, Ieyasu, would charge us for treason without verifying the truth. Was I completely wrong to have respected you as a fair man?
The manner in which you handled the Maeda family in Kaga truly shows your authority, is all I can say. How can a fine man like you be made a fool of by someone like Hori Hideharu? It is truly pitiable.
You condemn us for purchasing weapons, but this is the practice of country samurai. It's better than the Kamigata samurai obsessed with silly teacups. That shouldn't arouse any concerns.
The Uesugi clan shares borders with the Hori in Echigo, Date, Mogami, and various other daimyo clans.
However, only Lord Hori of Kasugayama Castle is ranting treason for paving a road to another province. Apparently he must be a fool. If Kagekatsu harbored any treacherous intent, he would've closed the borders and surrounded the castle by a moat. Why would he pave a road to allow the enemy to attack? Only a complete idiot would do that. It is clear in everyone's eyes as to who is right on this.
It appears that it is the fad these days for men who have treacherous intent to submit, if they see no chance of victory. However, it is an insult to Kagekatsu to be put in the same level as those disgraceful men. It will make us lose our samurai honor from Lord Kenshin's days.
If you are going to believe the liar and not conduct a proper investigation, then the Uesugi will not go to Kyoto. Is there really fault in Kagekatsu? Or are you, Ieyasu, a double-dealer?
The decision rests on Heaven.
I repeat. If you are going to believe the liar's words at face value and suspect Kagekatsu then there is nothing more we can do.
I can only be disappointed that you, Ieyasu, turned out to be someone that is unrighteous and unreasonable.

April 14th, Naoe Yamashiro-no-kami Kanetsugu.

[Akaie]

Yeah, that's basically what I have from the episode. Also kind of funny to watch the depicted Ieyasu squirm after his generally zen depiction.

I wonder, though, if this is more or less what he actually said? It certainly seems appropriate, NHK is often referred to as a strong user of historical references and the "You condemn us for..." line is more or less aligned with the snippet I have.

[The_Nord]

Hey Kujirakira, would you happen to know where I can find english subtitles for the NHK Taiga drama "Hideyoshi"?

Sorry for the off-topic.

[yoshisuke]

Three new pics today.

Toyotomi Hideyori
Attachment 201437

A Sanada family armor
Attachment 201435

And a drawing of one of Sanada Yukimura armor (done by the japanese historian Mitsuo Kure)
Attachment 201436

Edit :

Two pics of an armor worn by another member of the Sanada family (17th-18th century) (hq)
Attachment 201464
Attachment 201465

And what is supposed to be Maeda Keiji armor
Attachment 201466

[atza]

The armor pics look good! where have you been finding them, if I may ask? one question though, Wasn't Toyotomi Hideyori 8-10 years old at this time? how could he fit into his armor? also, I have another little character bio (If these aren't very useful or anything just let me know, and I'll stop) this one is of Sanada Masayuki. He was an excellent strategist, using both diplomacy and tricks to win his battles in which he was often highly outnumbered. I'm pretty sure he was a high ranking member of the Takeda at one point, after the Takeda had fallen, he made peace with the oda who basically left him alone (they were sort of like a protectorate) after Nobunaga Oda was assassinated, the sanada's protection from the Oda was gone. With his diplomatic skills/schemes, he was able to keep the surrounding powers from wiping out the sanada. he Defended his home castle from the Tokugawa twice, the first was an impressive Victory thanks to Sanada's use of ambushes and false openings. when all out war broke out between the Tokugawa and the Toyotomi, he sided with the west (toyotomi). Fun fact, he sent one of his sons to fight for tokugawa so that no matter the outcome, the sanada wouldn't die out (win-win). His most famous exploit is how he was able to keep Ieyasu's son who had a large portion of the Tokugawa force from ever reaching sekigahara (this was supposed to be decisive enough to allow the Toyotomi to win the battle) I'm not actually sure if the toyotomi ever even knew that Sanada was going to do this to be honest, but it worked. a while Afterwards, I've heard from some sources, he was assassinated by Ieyasu's son. this is quite possibly just a romanticized account because another source says he was able to secure his and his son's safety afterwards thanks to his son in the eastern army. (both sound romanticized if you ask me ) . there was also a second battle of Ueda which I admittedly know absolutely nothing about hope this can in some way help paint the setting of the Era!

[yoshisuke]

Hideyori was 22 in 1615 so the armor would fit whitout problem. And the richests families often had armors made for the sons coming of age ceremony and even earlier. There's examples of armors made for 12 years old boys. And 15 was the age at wich a 'man' was authorized to go to war. (Famous examples are Oda Nobunaga, Date Masamune. Others had even worse karma like Uesugi Kenshin (Nagao Kagetora at this time) who not only fought at 15 but against his own brother who died in the battle)
As for where I found the pics well.. Mostly from books (which are far more reliable than internet) and internet. But caution is required there because there' a lot of badly copied armors.
I've found the last Sanada armor I've posted on a book and found pics on internet (but nothing pointed out that it was a Sanada armor on internet so if you search Sanada armor on google it won't show up) This particular armor used to be in a french collection (met the owner)

I don't want to be rude but did you find Masayuki's bio on wikipedia ?
And I absolutly don't believe in ninjas hired to kill daimyo and generals. Uesugi Kenshin killed by an Oda ninja ? Sounds ridiculous to me. Ninja, during sengoku jidai, were scouts for armies, spies and saboteurs, sometimes, but stealth killers sneaking into a castle to surgically kill ? highly unlickly.

Edit : If you want proofs of how internet is poorly reliable. Someone in another total war forum said this armor was one of Hideyoshi's.
Attachment 201511
But Erwin Rommel said in another thread here that it's Date Masamune's. (and I'd be interested to read what he think's of it, even if I'd rather trust him on this)

And this one is labeled as Sakai but the ladder is one of the Sanada family symbol.
Attachment 201512
It might even mean it belongs to a member of one of the families who was adopted or was married to a daughter of the other. (and I honestly don't have any clue)

[atza]

Oh, that makes sense, if he was 15, I meant no offense and wasn't trying to sound critical by the way. As for Masayuki's bio that I made, I only looked at it to see how he had died because I was under the assumption that he was assassinated, I never said Ninjas or any details about how, while I was there I saw my other "source" that said he was spared as a result of a relative in the eastern military. As for the Uesugi Kenshin Killed by an Oda Ninja, I know nothing about that, nor did I say anything about it, unless you were citing a popular belief to his demise, anyways, most of what I know about this whole time period comes from old books I've read, or yes, occasionally, articles online from long ago, and by the way, I don't think the question was rude at all! No hard feelings whatsoever. I enjoy viewing the armor sets that you have put up so far and wait in earnest to see some more.

[yoshisuke]

Oh, that makes sense, if he was 15, I meant no offense and wasn't trying to sound critical by the way. As for Masayuki's bio that I made, I only looked at it to see how he had died because I was under the assumption that he was assassinated, I never said Ninjas or any details about how, while I was there I saw my other "source" that said he was spared as a result of a relative in the eastern military. As for the Uesugi Kenshin Killed by an Oda Ninja, I know nothing about that, nor did I say anything about it, unless you were citing a popular belief to his demise, anyways, most of what I know about this whole time period comes from old books I've read, or yes, occasionally, articles online from long ago, and by the way, I don't think the question was rude at all! No hard feelings whatsoever. I enjoy viewing the armor sets that you have put up so far and wait in earnest to see some more.

I meant no offense either. It's always a pleasure to see someone with such interests ! It's just that i often read people with quite wrong beliefs about ninjas so when the subject come up or someone talk about assassination in japan I always feel the need to break the hollywood legend.
I have a lot of other pics (and some really weird looking armors) but it might be a little off-topic here since we're talking of the sekigahara campaign and by extent families of the time.

[Akaie]

Edit : If you want proofs of how internet is poorly reliable. Someone in another total war forum said this armor was one of Hideyoshi's.
Attachment 201511
But Erwin Rommel said in another thread here that it's Date Masamune's. (and I'd be interested to read what he think's of it, even if I'd rather trust him on this)

There is a depiction of this in Turnbull's second 'Samurai Commanders' book on page 40 (or somewhere around there, depending on what they add at the start). It would certainly help the claim, although without making some sort of personal venture to find out, I can't completely be sure.

[yoshisuke]

Thanks for the tip, Anton, I don't have this particular book but I have three of this collection and they are interesting. Good reason to buy it now !

[The_Nord]

I'd love it if you'd posted the images of the weird armours... I, uh, have a thing for weird armours ever since I played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls (and also because of shogun 2 lol).