Assault on Kyoto - A Shameful Display

[g0pher_11]

Well, the title tells how this went! Anyhow there were a few battlescape curves that left me feeling the playing field was not quite level... Perhaps there are just some things I need to know, if so please indulge me.


Playing my 1st campaign (vanilla), as Shimazu on normal to get a feel for this edition of TW. I've got 29 provinces, eliminated all the clans that were a thorn in my side up to now and kept the other remaining powerhouses (Takeda, Hojo & Imagawa) from declaring war on me. Realm divide happened a number of turns ago. It's time to take Kyoto!


First I send in a Ninja specialized in sabotage to tackle the gates. That is successful (supposedly). Then on the same turn I attack. I know that Kyoto is loaded primarily with bow Samurai, so I include a healthy contingent of master-armored katana Samurai in what is otherwise a rather balanced force. I don't attack straight out, I wait for a rainy downpour to limit the effectiveness of their overwhelming superiority in archers. I divide up the force into three more or less equal contingents to attack via each of the three bridges simultaneously, and launch the battle - that's where my questions come up...


1. Units simply will not follow each other across a bridge, will they... if I select three or four units and click on the far side of the bridge only the first takes the bridge, the rest insist on wading across. I can get two units to move onto a bridge by ordering the first one to the far end of the bridge and the second, to, say, the middle of the bridge. I might even get a third one to advance onto the beginning of the bridge. Now, when I order the most forward unit to leave the bridge and (say) attack a gate, if I give a similar order to any of the following units they simply turn around, march back off the bridge and wade into the water. In short, if there are any troops left on a bridge ahead of a unit, even just a few stragglers, the following units seem to either refuse to take the bridge or (if they are already on it) turn around, get off the bridge and wade through the water. This is unfuriating - what part of bridge crossings in S2 am I missing?


2. Recall that my specialized Ninja sabotaged the gates... I order those units (or what's left of them) that I've managed to coax across the river to storm through those unlocked gates! Guess what, they don't open. So what exactly did the sabotaging accomplish? They just stand around like city construction employees while the towers and archers pick them off! So I then try to get them to destroy the gates, but it seems the flaming boogers they throw don't work in the rain. (That actually makes some sense, but given that my efforts in training up a Ninja specifically to disable the gates went unrewarded I figured there might be some reciprocal concession there - no such luck I guess.) The only thing left was to send them back down the ramps and have them scale the wall in the rain. By this time of course my units (those that aren't on strike on the other side of the bridges) are seriously depleted and don't last long once they get over the walls. Yes, I actually did manage to get temporary control of a tower or two from the inside in time to open a gate or two - most of the ensuing traffic through said gates however was going the wrong direction with white flags... and the oh-so-annoying "SHAMEFUL DISPLAY!!" playing over and over.) SO, what is it about sabotaged gates that I am not understanding? Is this a bug?


I can fully accept that Kyoto may (perhaps ought to) be a tough nut that takes a few attempts to crack, but the reasons for this failure just didn't feel "right"...

[John F. Kennedy]

Just a mention on the bridge thing, have you tried ordering each unit separately to go across the bridge instead of all at once? It might work, since Total War AI has always had an issue with comprehending the idea that more than one unit can do something together on narrow spaces, like with Med II and maneuvering units on walls.

[visser300]

I'm pretty sure that you can't take Kyoto with only one stack because there's always a full stack of current shogun in that castle and the castle itself has two layers.

In my opinion, two full stacks is better

[g0pher_11]

Just a mention on the bridge thing, have you tried ordering each unit separately to go across the bridge instead of all at once?

Absolutely! Didn't seem to make a difference...

I'm pretty sure that you can't take Kyoto with only one stack because there's always a full stack of current shogun in that castle and the castle itself has two layers.

In my opinion, two full stacks is better

Yes, I can buy that, in fact I feel it shouldn't be easy to take Kyoto. But it should be hard for the right reasons (such as you state). This battle was not lost due to hard fighting, the (legitimate) defensive advantage of the place or the enemy's preponderance in bow samurai. This battle was lost due to Python-esque comedy at bridge crossings and Ninjas who lie to me about having sabotaged the gates! I honestly didn't scratch the enemy badly enough for a second stack to have much better of a chance (especially not if they encountered the same glitches!)

No sweat, I'l try it again until I figure out what works... (and what doesn't, apparently).

[NSFW]

Having a ninja sabotage the gates should mean that the gates are open when you get to the battle map, very strange that it didn't work for you. Maybe Kyoto's immune to such tactics? can't recall if I've ever tried to sabotage its gates myself, all-told a little strange though.

I wouldn't say that you need multiple stacks to take Kyoto (at least up to Hard difficulty), but closing with all those Bow Sam is going to put a dent in most armies. I try to tailor my armies to clan flavour so I've fought the battle a few different ways, but generally when it comes to the assault I'll charge across the moat in loose formation rather than try to negotiate the bridges. The first few units will get especially badly cut up (uparmoured Nag Sam are probably the best for establishing an initial breech) but I've generally managed to force my way in without too much trouble.

EDIT: It's possibly worth remembering that Bow Monks' Whistling Arrows decrease the reload rate of affected targets, so launching a volley or two of those at the defending archers, before your melee units charge, should help lessen the casualties you take while closing with the walls.
If you're fighting in the dry you could send in a few sacrificial units first, as a gate/tower burners, they'll probably get cut up by the defenders' fire arrows, but at least it'll give the rest of your army a few minutes grace while the ability recharges.

[g0pher_11]

Crossing the moat in loose formation was next on my list of tactics to try. I'll just have them head straight for the walls rather than lining up as targets to see if the gates will open...
Thanks for the other tips!

[lamefellow]

Instead of throwing your kat sam the walls, use naginata sam. They soak way more arrows and provide a decent decoy while you then push your katana sam over the Walls. Yes, kyoto is immune to ninja gate sabotage

[g0pher_11]

Yes, kyoto is immune to ninja gate sabotage

Aha! There we have it - thank you for confirming that. It'd be sporting if they didn't let me try and respond 'Successful!' though...

[daniu]

Also, don't fixate on either the bridges nor the gates; both are just chokepoints you don't want to get into.
March through the water (walk to avoid exhaustion, loose formation to minimize missile casualties) and climb the walls (on as broad a front as possible to avoid funneling your men into a killzone).
That's true for all siege assaults.

For Kyoto, my most common strategy is to attack an army next to it so the garrison comes for support and is nearly wiped out, so the actual castle attack will be heavily in my favor anyway.

[CptAustus]

I usually out siege the Ashikaga or bring 2 or 3 armies to auto resolve.

[Humble Warrior]

I think the reason why CA sieges are so stupid is because whoever did the AI for sieges couldn`t get the armies to cross bridges right. the evidence is all there, just look:

1. multiple bridges but no one uses them and it don`t work right if you try to.
2. Water which is easily waded across. What? how? Why isn`t that water at least 6 feet deep? FORCE them to swim (as they did in RTW, BI).

Generally the whole siege mechanic is one cop out and one sentence explaines why it is so...

"Oh we can`t get sieges working right quickly enough, let`s just make them run across the whole thing like a normal battlefield to the target banner!"

Don`t listen to apologists who try all sort of cop out reasons for the the worse siege mechanics in a TW game since Empire. I was shocked when Shogun 2 was still the same.

[The Juggernaut]

My advice for kyoto is bring lots of siege weapons. Pummel them from a distance, focus on their units and towers. Then do as Daniu says, swarm the walls!

[Erwin Rommel]

2. Water which is easily waded across. What? how? Why isn`t that water at least 6 feet deep? FORCE them to swim (as they did in RTW, BI).

Lol. I guess you have not heard of karahori concept of moats or how the Japanese prefer them. Then again there was your insistence of a japanese siege weapon, not present in S2, the kame no kosha, which makes for a compelling case, iron turtles battering the walls! How could CA forget that! Then pointed out its only used in Korea. Oh oh, I like it when "destruction of walls" always pop up, I never seem to extract from you how to possibly destroy a kuruwa. Oh oh and wide proliferation of cannons, as if every siege event was like Osaka.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TBH, if it was, I'd remove that goddam siege map in Kyoto, which patterns itself in Nijo Castle, only in layout. I'd just have it in an open field in Kyoto, with the Heian-Kyo dominating the background, but beyond the red line battle map. THAT is more scenic, a tad bit historical. Fushimi came in there later.

[Humble Warrior]

Lol. I guess you have not heard of karahori concept of moats or how the Japanese prefer them. Then again there was your insistence of a japanese siege weapon, not present in S2, the kame no kosha, which makes for a compelling case, iron turtles battering the walls! How could CA forget that! Then pointed out its only used in Korea. Oh oh, I like it when "destruction of walls" always pop up, I never seem to extract from you how to possibly destroy a kuruwa. Oh oh and wide proliferation of cannons, as if every siege event was like Osaka.

.

I absolutely know your sort. You argue only the evidence and the side that suits you. You are seriously not objective to the truth at all. A master of sophistry more to decieve others watching than tell the truth.

That`s why I really don`t bother going into serious debate with you.

[Erwin Rommel]

I absolutely know your sort. You argue only the evidence and the side that suits you. You are seriously not objective to the truth at all. A master of sophistry more to decieve others watching than tell the truth.

That`s why I really don`t bother going into serious debate with you.

Show me then where have I erred?

Did I hold out on some evidence*, if I did, by all means post your own, in fact you rarely do now that I recall, barely mentioning even one japanese name or castle or is it because not agreeing to you is tantamount to denying truth as if some people here are the arbiter of truthiness and all who diverge from it are "apologist" or "deceivers"?


*Japanese ladders on walls, evidence....

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

("A master of sophistry", I'm taking law btw. )

[SgtScooter]

I absolutely know your sort.

Yeah! Him and his "evidence" and historical "knowledge"... where does he get off having an informed opinion?!

[Erwin Rommel]

Yeah! Him and his "evidence" and historical "knowledge"... where does he get off having an informed opinion?!

Sengoku Basara.