Which race of middle-earth would you be and why? (Read First Post)

[Eryn]

Not true, iirc you simply go to valinor, you could then return to middle earth, glorfindel for example, died fighting a balrog, is then present in lotr. Either way you can never die.

Those were two different elves called Glorfindel. Edit: Or at least that's how I remember it, since Elves really die, example: Feanor.

Hobbit, Elf or Rohirrim.

[Macilrille]

Those were two different elves called Glorfindel. Edit: Or at least that's how I remember it, since Elves really die, example: Feanor.

Hobbit, Elf or Rohirrim.

You are recalling it wrong. Glorfindel is the same, he was sent back to M-E with a purpose at the same time as the Istarii, but he does not leave with the ringbearers, so at that time it would still be unresolved.

And Elves' spirits (Fëa) do not die, they go to Mandos to wait for a new "house"- body (Hroa). Fëanor is still there for his evil ways. Elven spirits will not die ever, until Ea does.

[KnightsTemplar]

All living thing (or 'animals') have their 'soul' - the fe (fea for plural). Hroa is the body.
For all living things the hroa, the one we see, is merely a husk.

When Men lost their hroa they pass along beyond Ea into somewhere far beyond- the 'far green country' maybe?
When Elves lost their hroa they can always try to rebuild one or be granted a new one by the Valar.
Since they are in Mandos' Halls, of course they need the Doomsman's permit.

IIRC three elves was granted/made anew- Feanor's mother(name?), but she turned that down; Glorfindel as we all knew, and Finrod for his good.

EDIT: Ninja'd by Macilrille. lol

And indeed the Elves' 'soul' are bound to Ea, but the Men's do not. 'Death' is a gift to them really.

[Eryn]

You are recalling it wrong. Glorfindel is the same, he was sent back to M-E with a purpose at the same time as the Istarii, but he does not leave with the ringbearers, so at that time it would still be unresolved.

And Elves' spirits (Fëa) do not die, they go to Mandos to wait for a new "house"- body (Hroa). Fëanor is still there for his evil ways. Elven spirits will not die ever, until Ea does.

I guess you're right.

But what you wrote makes two questions come to my head.

Firstly, if Glorfindel didn't leave ME with the ringbearers, why is it said that Celeborn was the last elf to walk ME?

And secondly, if the elves were not able to die and the Valar had so much trouble fighting Melkor, why didn't they just revive (grant a new body) to all the poor Elves that died fighting Melkor's armies? ^^

(I did read the silm but it's been a while)

[KnightsTemplar]

I guess you're right.

But what you wrote makes two questions come to my head.

Firstly, if Glorfindel didn't leave ME with the ringbearers, why is it said that Celeborn was the last elf to walk ME?

And secondly, if the elves were not able to die and the Valar had so much trouble fighting Melkor, why didn't they just revive (grant a new body) to all the poor Elves that died fighting Melkor's armies? ^^

(I did read the silm but it's been a while)

There are still quite some elves around, mostly Avari.
Celeborn and Thranduil were their lords - for some time after Sauron is defeated and Galadriel left.
There is quite a long time in between the start of Fourth Age when Sauron is defeated and the Rings fade, and all the elves left.
As there is little to no evil left, there isn't much work for Glofindel, so he might left in that time period.
Eventually everyone left and Celeborn is left alone.

And also, it's not the Valar who have problem fighting Morgoth- it's the Men and the Noldor Exiles (plus Sindar and Avari).
The Valar are grieved by the loss of the Two Trees, and Feanor didn't save them, and go to war against the council of them.
They even slain their own kindred to get away - and they are cursed.
The Valar as whole never intended to help them afterwards; only Earendil moved them later.
(Ulmo and Co helped directly or indirectly - the Eagles of Manwe also, so they sort of helped.)

[♘Top Hat Zebra]

They knowledge you people have is frightening.


I AM SO JEALOUS.

[Eryn]

Yeah... but what about the elves Melkor and Ungoliant killed whilst escaping from Valinor? And the poor Teleri Elves who were slain by Feanor and his folks?

I mean, the Valar could've revived those at least!

[Macilrille]

Melkor slew only Finwë in his escape.

We do not know if the elves slain in The Kinslaying- or by the Sons of Fëanor when they assaulted Menegroth or on other Elf vs Elf or Elf innocently slain occasions were revived fast or had to wait long. Compare if you will, to the Catholic conception of a purgatory. It is likely they would be granted a new body soon. However, it would be a new body in Aman and after The Akkalabeth no-one left Aman except on a mission from the Valar; The Istarii and Glorfindel. Also, why would they want to leave the blessed lands for Middle-Earth to slowly weary and dwindle?

There is another reason the Valar did not deal with Melkor-Morgoth before; on every occasion they did, immense destruction and loss of life followed. The cataclysm during and following The War of Wrath was immense, sinking all Beleriand and wreaking havoc along the coastlines everywhere else. And that was the least destructive Vala vs Morgoth confrontations and largely fought by proxies.

[Macilrille]

They knowledge you people have is frightening.


I AM SO JEALOUS.

Well, we have focused our studies and interests on certain things, you on others. It did in fact cost me quite a lot of Tolkien-Lore to study history at university and fill my brain with knowledge of that as well.

I doubt not that there are things I know very little off but where you do; it is all a question of what knowledge you choose to fill your brain with. Do not be jelous, I cannot get a job and will soon be homeless cause of the lack of income, IE, I choose the wrong knowledge to fill up with ;-)

[KnightsTemplar]

The Valar granting a new body are like special cases - Feanor's mother is the first living thing ever ever to DIE in the Undying Lands. Ironic.
So of course the Valar have to do something. But she turned that down, and the Valar instead give Finwe a second chance of a new wife.
Finrod is a good guy all-round, and fought Sauron in single combat (after fisting a giant wolf to death IIRC).
Glorfindel have a blurry life, but at least he slain a Balrog. Seems Balrog-slaying is a great path to get a new body while have fun. (ref. Gandalf)

Other than that, is Luthien exchanging her immortal life for Beren to come back as well - how is that even possible to do so is ... strange.
But since Beren and Luthien are Tolkiens' incarnate, it works.

BTW is there such thing as Tolkien-study? That would make a great profession.

[Charger Bolt]

I have no clue what you guys are taking about, I like dwarves.


To change topics For a minute just to brag on thursday at Midnight to technically its was Friday I saw "The Avengers" it came out a Week early in Mexico and since I'm 20 minutes from the Mexican border I went to go see it and it was awesome

[Macilrille]

Isais, I have said it before and I repeat it; read lots of books. I have no notion what "The Avengers" is and I suspect I would hate it (being a grumpy old fart), but I know the great joy you can find in books- and you would have the more reason to like Dwarves the more you knew of them.

We are talking about the difference between Elves and men dying and the connection between an elven spirit (Fêa) and his body (Hroa), and what happens when they die.

I believe that you can specialise in Tolkien as a subgenre if you study litterature, the same way I specialised in Medieval-Roman and military history as part of my history study. You might even be able to pull it off if you study old Anglo-Saxon. I dunno, we can ask our Oxford-Man, if anywhere, Oxford would be the place to do it.

[Charger Bolt]

Isais, I have said it before and I repeat it; read lots of books. I have no notion what "The Avengers" is and I suspect I would hate it (being a grumpy old fart), but I know the great joy you can find in books- and you would have the more reason to like Dwarves the more you knew of them.

We are talking about the difference between Elves and men dying and the connection between an elven spirit (Fêa) and his body (Hroa), and what happens when they die.

I believe that you can specialise in Tolkien as a subgenre if you study litterature, the same way I specialised in Medieval-Roman and military history as part of my history study. You might even be able to pull it off if you study old Anglo-Saxon. I dunno, we can ask our Oxford-Man, if anywhere, Oxford would be the place to do it.

Lol I know I was kidding, you guys were so technical and all into your conversation I thought it was cute and funny, I was just joking with you guys.

Ps: the Avengers is a super team of comic heroes that consist of Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, Thor and Hawkeye

[KnightsTemplar]

The Universe of Marvel, the most OP one ever, even moreso than Warhammer 40k.
(Not actually, just the one more people know)

Even comic heroes can be studied seriously and carefully.

[Macilrille]

Thor? I am puzzled, Thor was the God of thunder (and other things) in my forefathers' pantheon...

[Charger Bolt]

Thor? I am puzzled, Thor was the God of thunder (and other things) in my forefathers' pantheon...

Yes Thor, Thor and the rest of the Avengers fights Loki the half brother of Thor

[Macilrille]

I think that is way beyond and above my limited intellect. I better keep to the original texts.

[KnightsTemplar]

Ninja pirate zombie robots.
The Avengers is basically mix-and-matching dozens of Marvel comics series (which themselves are mix-and-match of different inspirations).
Knowing the legends behind sorta help watching the movie - bonus point.

[Macilrille]

Not for me, I do in fact know of the Marvel Version of Thor, and- being a grumpy and purist old fart- it just makes me pity the poor people who has that as an excuse for culture. Makes me just shake my head.

Tolkien on the other hand, makes me want more and to laud the fact that he never wrote more- more- MORE!


Edit, and yes KT that comment is right on point, it is the Ninja Pirate Zombie Robots effect...

[Elite69]

I'd be a Dwarf, but I would bed Elven and Human women haha.