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Thread: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

  1. #1

    Default Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    First let me begin by saying that I love your mods, Darth -- you have made ETW and NTW (in my experience) amazing gaming experiences, and I thank you for that.

    I have thoroughly enjoyed your last few versions of Darthmod for NTW, but I am confused by a couple of things.

    1) Why does militia fire-by-rank? This should not be the case -- it's militia for crying out loud! Their advantage should be their cheapness to recruit and unit-size on the battlefield. Militia units would not have the discipline for such advanced maneuvers.

    2) Is there a way to tone down how incredibly powerful cavalry are in drawn-out melee battles? I understand horses getting a hefty charge bonus -- this is usually what they're used for. But I have noticed in NTW and your mod for it that cavalry also dominate in melee even long after the initial charge, which should not be the case unless the're heavy cavalry or cavalry fighting a far inferior unit. Once a charge ends, a cavalry unit should be highly vulnerable to a full regiment of bayonet-equipped line infantry.

    Thanks in advance for listening!

  2. #2
    Shea O'Gorath's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    I dont know about the horses but the militia using FBR means they have an extreame advantage in fire power over line


    However i do find that the fact a general is so important for morale has inadvertently toned down the revolutionary armies that seem to somehow be better equipped than your standing army and i thank you for that as now they falter as they should

    And to the OP congrats on 1 post
    Heres some rep as a warming present
    Last edited by Shea O'Gorath; January 18, 2012 at 05:11 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Mc View Post
    I dont know about the horses but the militia using FBR means they have an extreame advantage in fire power over line


    However i do find that the fact a general is so important for morale has inadvertently toned down the revolutionary armies that seem to somehow be better equipped than your standing army and i thank you for that as now they falter as they should

    And to the OP congrats on 1 post
    Heres some rep as a warming present
    Yeah they do have a big advantage ... their massive numbers helps negate their low morale rating, and their sheer numbers means every volley can be pretty devastating. It's BS that a disciplined line regiment could lose pretty badly in a 1 on 1 fight with a militia regiment, but it happens all the time ... last night it happened to me in a battle, prompting me to post this.

    Thanks for the welcome, too btw.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    i'd prefer fire by rank removed. It's actually less overall fire. and wans't used in this time period
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon9009 View Post
    i'd prefer fire by rank removed. It's actually less overall fire. and wans't used in this time period
    From what I've read, that's certainly debatable.

    I'd like to at least see it as an option for line units (toggleable mid-battle) if possible. Regardless, there's no way in hell your average militia would be using fire-by-rank. Period.

  6. #6
    Chevalier IX's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeywarrior View Post
    From what I've read, that's certainly debatable.

    I'd like to at least see it as an option for line units (toggleable mid-battle) if possible. Regardless, there's no way in hell your average militia would be using fire-by-rank. Period.
    actually during this period saw the beginning of mass conscription resulting in partially trained(do not confuse experience with training) non professional soldiers taking the field,which is in stark contrast to the highly trained career men of the past century.Therefore due to this complicated maneuvers and complex drills that require parade ground precision were not used and if they were they were certainly not the norm.The common soldier of this era simply lacked the skill,the training and the discipline to execute these maneuvers under fire.The references you are likely seeing to it refer to a few instances when it was executed by the British during linear formations and from dated drill and tactical manuals that while in use were rather unpracticable in reality and thus disposed of.

    Edit:It has occured to me that the action of multiple lines giving fire ,being the first or second and in the french doctrine the third,simultaneously has at times been referred to as Rank Fire.This is not to be confused with the previous centuries definition of such which is actually what we see on display here in the game.But indeed,as it is portrayed in the current game was certainly not used.
    Last edited by Chevalier IX; January 18, 2012 at 06:27 PM.

  7. #7
    Chevalier IX's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1s-m...eature=related

    by all means take a look at this video.It starts straight away with a good representation of a proper Napoleonic Volley executed by 2 standing ranks and a few pops from the third

  8. #8
    BrodY's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    I like this mod as is. And the debate about FBR can go on forever. It's one of those phenomenons dictating; "You either love it. Or you hate it." An option to disable it would be welcome It definately belonged in ETW, but I don't know about NTW. It feels like the battles in NTW should be more fast-paced and "fluid", if you will, than ETW. Anyway, it seems like I strayed from the original point of this thread, and I apologize ^^ just had to get that out of me.

  9. #9
    juvenus's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    this is an interesting debate...i'm not too familiar with Napoleonic era doctrine though.
    i certainly agree that Militia units shouldn't be able to decimate a regular line regiment in a head-on engagement. but i'm not sure if FBR was used and to what extent, although there are many books which may help, including the cheap Osprey editions.


  10. #10

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    OK, regardless of whether rank fire in its current form was actually used during the Napoleonic era of warfare, you guys are missing the point.

    The POINT of this thread is that no matter what there is no way that militia units should be using such tactics. I can suspend some level of disbelief for line troops or elite units, but certainly not for militia.

    MOST importantly, it damages gameplay. A regiment of 500 militia using fire-by rank (3 ranks in succession) will pretty much murder a disciplined and more accurate line regiment at range simply due to their numbers. Militia was well balanced in Darthmod for ETW (DMUC) and I'd like to see that balance return for Napoleon.

  11. #11
    VENNONETES's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Version 1.6

    • Fixed bug that prevented Spain Campaigns to work properly.
    • Included some map files for All Factions Campaigns that show victory conditions in startup map screen.
    • Made Ministers and Faction leaders to have more diplomacy bonuses or penalties according to their star rating (Finetuned CAI aggressiveness for this).
    • Replaced every 40Unit save campaign with a new one with working 2X unit size! (Some minor factions saves were removed because of less interest).
    • Included the Increased Deployment Zone mod of Albtraum23 that is included in this mod Albtraum23Mod mit 40 Units per Army V.0.9. This mod is useful for 40 Unit Campaigns and can be enabled/disabled from the submod options.
    • Militia can now fire by rank.
    It's a choice of darth

    V.E.


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  12. #12

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    (Sorry to double post -- can't find the edit post option)

    Essentially what I'm saying is that why would anyone bother recruiting regular line regiments in this mod/game if militia will do a better job of delivering massed volleys than regular line infantry? Obviously they won't be strong in melee, but if you mass enough of them with the right support, they would be easily more effective in most situations where sheer firepower is needed.

  13. #13
    Chevalier IX's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    [QUOTE=Hockeywarrior;10909141]OK, regardless of whether rank fire in its current form was actually used during the Napoleonic era of warfare, you guys are missing the point.

    The POINT of this thread is that no matter what there is no way that militia units should be using such tactics. I can suspend some level of disbelief for line troops or elite units, but certainly not for militia.

    MOST importantly, it damages gameplay. A regiment of 500 militia using fire-by rank (3 ranks in succession) will pretty much murder a disciplined and more accurate line regiment at range simply due to their numbers. Militia was well balanced in Darthmod for ETW (DMUC) and I'd like to see that balance return for Napoleon.[/Q

    No no the point is not missed here.i think though that you may be mistaking militia for spme armed mob.they certainly maintajned a level of training amd organisation.these militias had their own officers their ranks and their own long standing traditikns in some cases.i think the choice to give them rank fire was a happy medium that allows for them to not be bowled over like some manner of armed mob for their difference is telling in action.their lesser morale and accuracy balances them out vs their numbers in my opinion as they break much easier under fire and certainly the bayonet.but yes i certainly agree that there must be decided reason to enlist line over militia.
    Last edited by Chevalier IX; January 19, 2012 at 03:23 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    (now for a true double post )
    Ah well that's disheartening to see that it was in fact a Darthmod addition. If Darth ever reads this I hope he understands my points and at least makes it an option in the start up menu so we can turn it off if we want. It REALLY kills gameplay when I see rank after rank of militia unit rank firing and decimating my well trained elite infantry units...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chevalier IX View Post
    No no the point is not missed here.i think though that you may be mistaking militia for spme armed mob.they certainly maintajned a level of training amd organisation.these militias had their own officers their ranks and their own long standing traditikns in some cases.i think the choice to give them rank fire was a happy medium that allows for them to not be bowled over like some manner of armed mob for their difference is telling in action.their lesser morale and accuracy balances them out vs their numbers in my opinion as they break much easier under fire and certainly the bayonet.
    Well in my experience with the mod so far, I've noticed that militia can be quite difficult to break under massed fire just because of their size. I've also noticed that they are still quite accurate enough to decimate a line regiment even at moderate to long range. Low accuracy + huge numbers still = a ton of fairly accurate fire.

  16. #16
    Chevalier IX's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeywarrior View Post
    Well in my experience with the mod so far, I've noticed that militia can be quite difficult to break under massed fire just because of their size. I've also noticed that they are still quite accurate enough to decimate a line regiment even at moderate to long range. Low accuracy + huge numbers still = a ton of fairly accurate fire.
    yeah i know at times they can be a tough cookie to crack.In the newest version Darth revisited morale across the board so perhaps the limitations of militia have been taken into account.I will test in combat and see what occurs

  17. #17

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Any word from Darth on whether he might make fire-by-rank a launcher option for all units or just militia units? 2.0 is a good version, but this militia issue still bugs the heck out of me!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    I brought this topic up from release of this mod, and Darth said "FBR is here to stay and thats it"...your right FBR was a rare occurance at this period, the British even used it during Rorkes Drift in 1879, but the situation called for such, and this must be seen as an exception.

    The problem is, i would much rather see the front 2 ranks at least firing in, but at present without FBR you only get the front rank. Its true that a squad of 500 milita is a force to be reconed with, and i have easily out gunned units of line if you can get them to hold steady.

    Personally, i would like to see milita only shoot from the front rank. Line shoot from the front 2/3, and an option for Line..perhaps only Grenadeirs to shoot FBR if you choose.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Poacher886 View Post
    I brought this topic up from release of this mod, and Darth said "FBR is here to stay and thats it"...your right FBR was a rare occurance at this period, the British even used it during Rorkes Drift in 1879, but the situation called for such, and this must be seen as an exception.

    The problem is, i would much rather see the front 2 ranks at least firing in, but at present without FBR you only get the front rank. Its true that a squad of 500 milita is a force to be reconed with, and i have easily out gunned units of line if you can get them to hold steady.

    Personally, i would like to see milita only shoot from the front rank. Line shoot from the front 2/3, and an option for Line..perhaps only Grenadeirs to shoot FBR if you choose.
    Same here. I'd like to see militia not fire by rank at all (like in DMUC) and an option for your line regiments or grenadiers to fire by rank.

    Sometimes FBR is actually not desirable because it takes much longer for your men to start firing, and then to all reload again before the next set of volleys are sent. I'd much rather they start engaging as fast as possible to get off that first major volley. After all, as many have pointed out, most conscripted units probably didn't fire all together after the first fire order was given ... just "fire at will" afterwards.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Militia units using fire-by-rank?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon9009 View Post
    i'd prefer fire by rank removed. It's actually less overall fire. and wans't used in this time period
    Id prefer faster reload speed for every unit with fire by rank enables to all. Just to speed up but to each his own.

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