Rosicrucianism & Alchemy: Prototypes of modern Psychology.....

[hellas1]

I was recently examining a number of Rosicrucian & Alchemical texts and must say that these 2 groups truly were and are precursors of modern Psychology.

As an example from Alchemy......the classical "lead to gold" paradox:
The Alchemists "taught" that lead could be changed to gold via a series of processes.
Dissolution, Rectification, etc. etc.

When one examines the actual Alchemical texts however, one immediately sees the immediacy in which regular metals are allegories of principles or psychological states, and that namely transmutation OR Self reflection and change is THE alchemical process par excellence.

An example from Rosicrucianism is the "Rosy Cross/Rose Cross" symbolism:

The term "Rosy Cross" and "Rose Cross" are used to denote entirely different concepts.
"Rosy Cross" being a Reddish Cross typified by the symbol of a Cross with an overhead view of an open rose, typically 5 petaled, in it's center.
"Rose Cross" denoting a person who has caused the allegorical "Rose" to bloom within themselves, hence personal transformation.

The term "Rosicrucian" denotes one who holds to tenets of the Rosy Cross brotherhood, elucidated in such writings as the Fama Fraternitatis, and the Chemical Marriage.

However, If one examines other actual Rosicrucian texts also, such as "Secret Teachings of the Rosicrucians of the 16th & 17th century," one sees the difference between the genteel notion of a mere "Rosicrucian Brotherhood" based around the tenets of few texts such as the Fama Fraternitatis, etc. and that of the actual goal of Self transformation, as Kabbalistic and Alchemical ideas and concepts are almost exclusively used in Rosicrucian contexts and were meant to be be actual working psychological transformational tools.

Comments or Concerns, please
hellas1.5

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Actually the first modern psychologists were Arabs in the middle ages, who understood that psychological disorders arose from the brain, not demons in the skull.

[Blau&Gruen]

Aristotele's work about Rhetorics contains a Psychology which comes in some aspects close to modern Psychology.

[MaximiIian]

Yeah, the Rosicrucians and other Renaissance and Baroque era occultists are more at the root of physical and chemical sciences, far moreso than any of the social sciences. Their pioneering work in alchemy and other mystical studies, separate from the Church's eye, led to the first scientists in physics, mathematics, and chemistry--breaking down the doors, so to speak, for the future of the scientific method.
I mean, to some degree they influenced modern psychology and social sciences, but mainly insofar as they were the forerunners of scientific inquiry. They sought to explain and categorise, through experimentation, the mystical phenomena of their practice.

[Blau&Gruen]

Don't get me wrong! This Tapir is not a symbol for spitting water to the contrary it's being watered.



Modern psychology uses clinical and empirical methods which describes a significant difference compared to non-academic undertakings in the half-world of esoteric phantasies and money-making cults.

[Maximinus Thrax]

Carl Jung wrote extensively on this: Psychology and Alchemy, Alchemical Studies, Mysterium Coniunctionis and other related articles about the Western and Eastern esoteric systems (the latter seems to have been a major source of inspiration for the original Rosicrucian movement).

[Blau&Gruen]

C.G. Jung sent his Doberman out towards visitors entering his garden and explained them later that he did so for testing purposes.

[hellas1]

Actually the first modern psychologists were Arabs in the middle ages, who understood that psychological disorders arose from the brain, not demons in the skull.

The Alchemists & Rosicrucians used symbols and obscure language to convey things in an age in which the then Catholic Church forbade certain things to be taught.......namely psychological issues, which was something mentioned by the early Greeks: Nous=mind, Soma=Body, Psyche=Soul, Pneuma= Spirit and the interconnection between these aspects, per se, of a human being.

Alchemists & Rosicrucians didn't believe in "demons in the skull."
The changing of lead to gold was a psycho-spiritual process of self transformation, per se, and not a "get rich quick" scheme nor a flim-flam hocus pocus act.

They had/have material dealing with psychological states which had/has been kept secret until today.

As an aside:
Carl Jung utilized Manly P. Hall's collection of Alchemical & Rosicrucian works also (I believe) in his writings........However this is not to be construed that I endorse Manly P. Hall, I do respect the person's research however.

hellas1.5

[King Gambrinus]

Rosicrucians clearly knew something the Church didn't, which prompted their persecution.

[hellas1]

Rosicrucians clearly knew something the Church didn't, which prompted their persecution.

Well, when one reads Rosicrucian manuscripts or purported one's anyway, Kabbalah and Jakob Boehme's theology come through very clearly.

This Kabbalah is not Madonna's "Kabbalah," it is something different.

Jakob Boehme was a protestant mystic and had some very deep insights.

Both Kabbalah & Boehme sought psycho-spiritual changes.........

Comments?
hellas1.5

[MaximiIian]

Rosicrucians clearly knew something the Church didn't, which prompted their persecution.

Not really. It's more that they and other secret societies were intertwined with the scientific revolution and the later Enlightenment. They represented a statement of "The Church doesn't know everything," which pretty expectedly pissed off the large political and religious teaching organisation that based itself on the idea that it was the sole way of human salvation. That is why Western occult groups were persecuted in Catholic countries--and even then, it was pretty inconsistently persecuted.

Furthermore, the occult of the West was based heavily off of Greek philosophies and Jewish mysticism--both things the Church knew about or was partly based on themselves.

[Denny Crane!]

C.G. Jung sent his Doberman out towards visitors entering his garden and explained them later that he did so for testing purposes.

What we need to remember about jung is that he was a close friend of Freud. That should be indicative of something.

[Blau&Gruen]

What we need to remember about jung is that he was a close friend of Freud. That should be indicative of something.

It is indicative for that friendship enables understanding and that language games may differ while the interests remain identical. This has been true and still is in more than one context. Not the game as such deserves attention but what is behind and how this brings the matter forward. Freud had his private clients and Jung his clients in the clinic. They were trying to find solutions to improve the situation of the persons that came or were brought to them.

[Denny Crane!]

It is indicative for that friendship enables understanding and that language games may differ while the interests remain identical. This has been true and still is in more than one context. Not the game as such deserves attention but what is behind and how this brings the matter forward. Freud had his private clients and Jung his clients in the clinic. They were trying to find solutions to improve the situation of the persons that came or were brought to them.

The influence of Freud on Jung is fairly clear despite their vast differences and the non intuitive leaps of logic they both made (and both ultimately got profoundly wrong) seems to coincidential, their failings seem shared whilst their successes are disparate in influence it seems.

[Blau&Gruen]

The influence of Freud on Jung is fairly clear despite their vast differences and the non intuitive leaps of logic they both made (and both ultimately got profoundly wrong) seems to coincidential, their failings seem shared whilst their successes are disparate in influence it seems.

To mind comes me and this is very basic the therapeutic stance.

[Himster]

All science starts off as pseudo-science, wishfull thinking and myth if you go back far enough. The precursor to psychology was not alchemy, alchemy was the precursor for chemistry, it was the institution of exorcism and other silly traditions surrounding demonology that were replaced by psychology.

[hellas1]

All science starts off as pseudo-science, wishful thinking and myth if you go back far enough. The precursor to psychology was not alchemy, alchemy was the precursor for chemistry, it was the institution of exorcism and other silly traditions surrounding demonology that were replaced by psychology.

Can you prove to me what the reasons behind Alchemy were from an academic standpoint?
I'm not asking for pages of info. as a few quotes from valid people will suffice.

An interesting book about the interconnections between Ancient Greece and India via the Persian empire called "The Shape of Thought" by Thomas Mcevilley, will cause you to rethink psychology and spiritual perception and will allow you to see the connections between all kinds of lines of thought, to include psycho-spiritual schools of thought addressing psychological concerns.

Ex. Greek philosophy influencing Buddhism = Later Mahayana Buddhism (the "earlier" Mahayana existed at the council of Vaisali before Alexander the Great's conquest of northeast India)

Incidentally, myths do at many times contain moral lessons and historical facts also albeit encrusted over with nonsense.....

Finally, Exorcism wasn't the precursor to psychology, philosophy and meditation were and Rosicrucianism surely follows in the philosophical-meditational vein.

hellas1.5

[hellas1]

Not really. It's more that they and other secret societies were intertwined with the scientific revolution and the later Enlightenment. They represented a statement of "The Church doesn't know everything," which pretty expectedly pissed off the large political and religious teaching organisation that based itself on the idea that it was the sole way of human salvation. That is why Western occult groups were persecuted in Catholic countries--and even then, it was pretty inconsistently persecuted.

Furthermore, the occult of the West was based heavily off of Greek philosophies and Jewish mysticism--both things the Church knew about or was partly based on themselves.

I'd like to explain my definition of the term "occult":

The occult merely means "hidden" and is not indicative of "magick, new age thought or modern metaphysics like dianetics." Nor does it mean animal sacrifice or demon summoning or spiritualism.

The true Western occult does not denote revelation apart from the Christian God.

Although it could be said that the "occult" of the West leans heavily on Greek & Jewish mysticism, one has to remember that modern Western occult movements such as the Golden Dawn and so forth, have LITTLE to do with the Rosicrucians or Alchemists and as such do NOT reflect Rosicrucian nor Alchemical thought either in practice nor in their end results.

The mixture of the modern Western occult and Rosicrucian/Alchemical thought should NEVER be confused. Much Rosicrucian thought, for example, borrows heavily on the writings of Jakob Boehme, a protestant mystic and not Aleister Crowley.

hellas1.5.........Sulfur, Mercury and Salt, Right on!

[MaximiIian]

When I mean "the occult," I'm talking about the groups, secret societies, and writings of the Western Occult tradition, the entire history of the thing, including various stages of development. The original Greek mystery cults, Jewish and Christian mystics, and Hermetic mystics of Late Antiquity; who influenced the Rosicrucians and Freemasons of the Renaissance and Baroque revivals; who in turn influenced the 19th century revival involving the Golden Dawn and Thelema; who in turn influenced Neopaganism and similar religions. It's a cycle of revivals and declines that bring in the influences of previous movements, as well as influences from other sources.

Alchemy is an occult practice, and was/is used by the Western Occult tradition, which is itself strongly rooted in Christianity. I'm not going to deny its roots in Jewish mysticism and Christian mysticism. Why would I? It's historical fact.

[hellas1]

Alchemy is an occult practice, and was/is used by the Western Occult tradition, which is itself strongly rooted in Christianity. I'm not going to deny its roots in Jewish mysticism and Christian mysticism. Why would I? It's historical fact.

When I say "occult" I mean something which is hidden and not "The New Age movement" or "Neo-paganism" which IMHO is a farce. Something can be "hidden" from popular view/perception and I consider anything like that "occult." Dig?

Lastly, Alchemy and Rosicrucianism really dealt/deals w/psychological-spiritual change and they are always seen in the context (in the West) with the Christian God..Jesus Christ who is my God.

I'm concerned about that and not anything else, be it modern Theosophy (Eastern influenced-Blavatsky/Steinerism) or spiritualism or Pagan wackos running around beckoning people to "Aye...join the coven." I simply have no time for the mentioned B.S.

Check out Jakob Boehme and the Philokalia (Eastern Orthodoxy) and tell me what you think...
hellas1.5