[Election-II-2012] Magistrate Debate Thread - Voting begins January 19

[Okmin]

Debate/argue/interrogate/banter relevantly here.

Apply in the application thread.

[Nyxos]

and I'll answer any of your question. I said any...

[Bolkonsky]

Questions for the applicants.

1) Do you actually know what a Magistrate does? ()

2) Do you have any experience with the ToS, enforcing it, etc?

3) Why do you want to be a Magistrate? Do you have any inspirations to eventually become a moderator or tribune?

[Eöl]

Questions for the applicants.

1) Do you actually know what a Magistrate does? ()

I think I got the basics now

2) Do you have any experience with the ToS, enforcing it, etc?

I have done 2 terms as a magistrate, yes. But I also want to say that doesn't mean I am better than a new guy. You can learn how it works in a few days if you are really interested in it and become better than all the 'old guys'.

3) Why do you want to be a Magistrate? Do you have any inspirations to eventually become a moderator or tribune?

I have done it earlier and I quite enjoyed doing it. It's not my intention to become a tribune and certainly not a moderator. They won't need any tribunes soon, I think and if they need one, they will ask the experienced Harry Lime.

[Nyxos]

Questions for the applicants.

1) Do you actually know what a Magistrate does? ()

You mean apart from fetching Hotspur's and Soren's coffee ?

A Magistrate's job is about making sure the ToS is applied fairly and rightly, to correct any mistakes moderators might have done (they are still mostly human after all). It is also about confirming moderator's actions and making the boundaries of the ToS clear to everyone.

2) Do you have any experience with the ToS, enforcing it, etc?

I'm a local mod for the French thread, possibly one of the calmest languages threads out there. Never been on the bad side of the ToS thankfully.

3) Why do you want to be a Magistrate? Do you have any inspirations to eventually become a moderator or tribune?

I want to be a Magistrate because I'd like to get more involved in the ToS side of this website. I also feel it would be something I'd enjoy, at least from what I heard from past Magistrates.

[Romanos IV]

Have you studies previous Tribunal decisions? Do you think they're important?

[Nyxos]

Have you studied previous Tribunal decisions? Do you think they're important?

I always keep up to date to date with the Tribunal cases, the major reason being that they are a major source of drama, and we all know that TWC thrives on that

More seriously, the Tribunal has the final authority on what is and what is not infractable. A good example of that is Appeal 770 where the tribunal deemed the post to be off topic, even if many people loudly voiced they didn't think it was.

Past decisions are important for both moderators and acting Tribunes, as they define the way the ToS is applied from there on.

[y2day]

Questions for the applicants.

1) Do you actually know what a Magistrate does? ()

2) Do you have any experience with the ToS, enforcing it, etc?

3) Why do you want to be a Magistrate? Do you have any inspirations to eventually become a moderator or tribune?

1. I have held the position before.

2. As a local moderator of a lot of forums on this site. At one time I think it was up to 10 or so. I also served as a Magistrate and CdeC member for over 2 years or more.

3. I wouldn't turned down an offer to become a Tribune. I have much respect for the position and think I could do well. I have never been offered a moderator position but would consider it.

Have you studies previous Tribunal decisions? Do you think they're important?

Yes, and yes.

[Pontifex Maximus]

1) Do you actually know what a Magistrate does? ()

Yes, unless something has changed recently that I'm not aware of.

2) Do you have any experience with the ToS, enforcing it, etc?

Three years moderating, just over a year administrating, and I helped redraft the ToS in 2009 and proposed other changes that came into effect (and others that didn't!) during various times during my time as a moderator.

3) Why do you want to be a Magistrate? Do you have any inspirations to eventually become a moderator or tribune?

I want to see things from the other side because I'm curious. If understanding of the ToS and how it is applied is a requirement for this job, I'm qualified. I also think being a magistrate will help marry the attitudes, outlooks, and habits of the den with that of the tribunal would be a beneficial exercise. Doing this will help build mutual understanding of how certain issues affect interstaff and staff-member relationships. Most of the time its obvious whether or not an infraction was justified or not, but the beef of the issues lie in the consequences and wording of those rulings. I detest the notion of using a magistrate position merely as a stepping stone 'to the next level' of staff. Anyone running for that purpose shouldn't run imo.

[Harry Lime]

@All applicants.

The Ronettes or Lady Gaga? Buddy Holly or Take That? A Touch of Evil or Iron Man 2?

Your judgement is called upon.

[y2day]

I also want to make clear that serving as a Magistrate shouldn't be used as a stepping stone to anything. That has never been my intention and I hope not anyone elses. I have really enjoy serving as a Magistrate and will be happy to do so again.

Harry I will have to get back to you.

[Nyxos]

@All applicants.

The Ronettes or Lady Gaga? Buddy Holly or Take That? A Touch of Evil or Iron Man 2?

Your judgement is called upon.

Rammstein, Metallica and Brazil.

I'll also add AC/DC as a subsidiary answer.

[Harry Lime]

@Nyxos

There is no Clause 16. Please answer the question.

[Hader]

To all: Do you realize that the majority running are part of the same house, so it's a win-win no matter what?

[Genius of the Restoration]

Are there any tribunal decisions you didn't agree with If so, why?

I also think being a magistrate will help marry the attitudes, outlooks, and habits of the den with that of the tribunal would be a beneficial exercise. Doing this will help build mutual understanding of how certain issues affect interstaff and staff-member relationships. Most of the time its obvious whether or not an infraction was justified or not, but the beef of the issues lie in the consequences and wording of those rulings.

Can you elaborate on how this would assist the tribunal? I'm of the opinion that the moderators and tribunes shouldn't be married. I think distance is beneficial to allowing the tribunal to properly critique the actions of the moderation branch. A blending of attitudes, outlooks and habits and a raised concern for for interstaff relationships isn't a sound way to ensure the tribunal's independence, the foundation on which the authority of the judiciary rests.

[Nyxos]

@Nyxos

There is no Clause 16. Please answer the question.

You called upon my judgement. I applied such judgement to the options that were given to me. Finding none satisfactory, I chose equivalents that were.

[m_1512]

1) Do you actually know what a Magistrate does? ()

Let me see,
They decide on appeal on rotation basis. Apart from this, they get coffee or tea for the Tribunes along with Scones and Pastries.

2) Do you have any experience with the ToS, enforcing it, etc?

Not yet, unless you count Local Moderation, which I have done. But how will I know whether I am Good/Rubbish at something without even trying it.

3) Why do you want to be a Magistrate? Do you have any inspirations to eventually become a moderator or tribune?

Tribune? No. I don't think that I aspire to replace any of the existing ones.
Moderator? Yes. But not sure of my chances imo.
But then, being Magistrate has nothing to do with the above aspirations. This is not a stepping stone for anything. I want to be a Magistrate to interpret and apply the ToS accordingly.

Have you studies previous Tribunal decisions? Do you think they're important?

Yep, there has always been interesting cases there. And definitely, they are all important just the way history is.

The Ronettes or Lady Gaga? Buddy Holly or Take That? A Touch of Evil or Iron Man 2?

Whoa! I'll have to get back to you, after I research about these.

To all: Do you realize that the majority running are part of the same house, so it's a win-win no matter what?

Really? Which house?

Are there any tribunal decisions you didn't agree with If so, why?

IMO, none. I would also say that I'd like to refrain commenting on something of which I do not have the full details. The Tribunal has access to many aspects of the case, and hence their judgement must be trusted by us.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Can you elaborate on how this would assist the tribunal? I'm of the opinion that the moderators and tribunes shouldn't be married. I think distance is beneficial to allowing the tribunal to properly critique the actions of the moderation branch. A blending of attitudes, outlooks and habits and a raised concern for for interstaff relationships isn't a sound way to ensure the tribunal's independence, the foundation on which the authority of the judiciary rests.

The tribunal exists to correct moderation errors and define the boundaries of the ToS for a given instance. Sometimes from the moderation standpoint the tribunal at best serves a purpose moderators could anyway by being more self policing at at worst directly interferes with intended 'policing' all the while remaining distinct and distant from moderation itself. The tribunal becomes a judgment body that all too often moderators despise because the tribunes/magistrates, can essentially overrule moderation whenever. There have been several instances in the past where lack of communication and mutual misunderstanding led tempers to flare. In the past year greater efforts have been made to facilitate communication between moderation and tribunal and this has had beneficial results. The appeal thread itself is not an appropriate avenue for infraction issuing moderators to question and debate with the tirbunes, so another forum exists for that. Distance breeds animosity as one body with complete oversight continues to anger the body who arguably does much more grunt work on a day to day basis to keep the site running above 4chan levels of degradation. This disconnect isn't good and more dialog and understanding won't compromise the authority of the tribunal or it's independence. Only a change in charter could do that. There's nothing to lose by increasing dialog and understanding, but much to lose if relations worsen. I don't think relations are bad right now, but continuing to take steps forward will ensure that. I've witnessed several episodes of outrage in the den and those strong feelings should be avoided as often as possible. Bad for morale and all that

[Genius of the Restoration]

Thanks for your response.

The tribunal exists to correct moderation errors and define the boundaries of the ToS for a given instance. Sometimes from the moderation standpoint the tribunal at best serves a purpose moderators could anyway by being more self policing at at worst directly interferes with intended 'policing' all the while remaining distinct and distant from moderation itself. The tribunal becomes a judgment body that all too often moderators despise because the tribunes/magistrates, can essentially overrule moderation whenever.

I think that's the point though isn't it? If a moderator despises a body that has the power to both keep their actions accountable, and overrule the moderator if they feel they have overstepped the TOS, that's more of a problem with the moderator IMO. It's not the Tribunal's job to appease moderators or bow to their wishes. If the Tribunal wasn't able to essentially overrule moderation whenever (constrained by what is reasonable of course), there would be no point in it existing.

There have been several instances in the past where lack of communication and mutual misunderstanding led tempers to flare. In the past year greater efforts have been made to facilitate communication between moderation and tribunal and this has had beneficial results. The appeal thread itself is not an appropriate avenue for infraction issuing moderators to question and debate with the tirbunes, so another forum exists for that.

I take no issue with communication between the tribunal and moderation branch; it's an essential part of the tribunal. I only questioned your comment that "attitudes, outlooks, and habits" should be married.

Distance breeds animosity as one body with complete oversight continues to anger the body who arguably does much more grunt work on a day to day basis to keep the site running above 4chan levels of degradation.

What is the moderation branch unhappy with? Tribunal "interference with intended 'policing'"? Are there specific cases you can refer to if this is the case?

This disconnect isn't good and more dialog and understanding won't compromise the authority of the tribunal or it's independence. Only a change in charter could do that. There's nothing to lose by increasing dialog and understanding, but much to lose if relations worsen. I don't think relations are bad right now, but continuing to take steps forward will ensure that. I've witnessed several episodes of outrage in the den and those strong feelings should be avoided as often as possible. Bad for morale and all that

The tribunal shouldn't be held responsible for the morale of moderation branch. It's very existence as a major element of TWC's checks and balances introduces a tension between tribunes and moderators. Increasing dialogue and understanding is a good idea, but that's not what I'm concerned about.

[Bolkonsky]

I think that's the point though isn't it? If a moderator despises a body that has the power to both keep their actions accountable, and overrule the moderator if they feel they have overstepped the TOS, that's more of a problem with the moderator IMO. It's not the Tribunal's job to appease moderators or bow to their wishes.

No, the Tribunal can be and has been wrong. There's also a lot of mis-communication between the two branches. Don't forget, a lot of infractions are issued in context. Tribunes are not always aware of the context, such as a user's previous history and behavior patterns. As such, they have to make difficult judgement that a moderator can make a much more educated judgement in. They have made imo, and in many other's opinions I'm sure, the wrong judgement due to lack of proper knowledge, or whatever it may be. This leads to a lot of friction between the two branches. Actually having been on one of the sides of the fence, and peeping through to the other side, Ponti's probably a bit knowledgeable as to where the problem is.

If the Tribunal wasn't able to essentially overrule moderation whenever (constrained by what is reasonable of course), there would be no point in it existing.

Fact of the matter is, they aren't. If Hex decided they didn't want to for a particular ruling, they wouldn't have to. Everything that's overruled by the Tribunal and followed through and reversed, is a courtesy to the members of this site. If the Tribunal had the power to overturn whatever they wanted, they would be able to un-ban people themselves. (Note, I'm only pointing this out to show you that there is merit on both sides of the coin.)

I take no issue with communication between the tribunal and moderation branch; it's an essential part of the tribunal. I only questioned your comment that "attitudes, outlooks, and habits" should be married.

What is your proposed solution then?

This disconnect isn't good and more dialog and understanding won't compromise the authority of the tribunal or it's independence. Only a change in charter could do that. There's nothing to lose by increasing dialog and understanding, but much to lose if relations worsen. I don't think relations are bad right now, but continuing to take steps forward will ensure that. I've witnessed several episodes of outrage in the den and those strong feelings should be avoided as often as possible. Bad for morale and all that

I'm also very curious as to what your proposed steps to change this are? Considering that a Magistrate is not in the same long-term position as a Tribune, and have less open doors, so to speak.