RR/RC for The Last Kingdom (released)

[Mihajlo]

This mod looks like an interesting addition, but I could use some help, please. Custom battles work just fine for me, but when I go into the grand campaign screen and select a faction, it immediately goes back to the main menu. Any ideas of what I did incorrectly?

Yup, I can put my money that you didnt copy/past everything correct. Smells like you didnt put descr_strat file in a correct position (last_kingdom/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial _campaign).
campaign_script file goes t same place (last_kingdom/data/world/maps/campaign/imperial _campaign).
Since you can play custom battles I guess you did copy/past battle_models.modeldb file in a correct place? (path is last_kingdom/data/unit_models)... rest of the files goes to a last_kingdom/data.

That is why I sent you a pm k/t, you should have write some explanation for guys who know little about where which file

Nevertheless GREAT stuff you did here (+rep, finally I spreed some so I can rep you again), battles are like should be, everything works like a charm, almost done with Norman campaign, superb! Only one thing tho, notice it in a custom battles (for some testing), you should set Norman knights back to 60 men, that unit is too weak now. 80 for unhorsed knights is good.

[Berg-i-dum]

One question, future changes in these files would result savegame compatible?.

[VanRW]

Did you use the EDU from post #49?

It's weird for Custom Battles to work and the Campaign to not. What does your log say? If it doesn't say anything, one way of narrowing down the potential cause is to switch the files one by one till you get a crash.

I'm still playing the East Anglia campaign and I started a Norman one as well. No crashes so far, except once when the game froze during a battle and I had to reboot, but that kind of stuff has happened to me in Vanilla M2 and in every mod I've ever played (in Vanilla M2 I got notices of DirectX crashes, or the drivers not responding, or something like that). Lousy CA and Microsoft.

I've done some more tinkering and fixed some mistakes, and I will release a new pack of files with all the changes soon.

Just went back and saved the EDU from post 49 just in case that was it and replaced mine, but same problem. Doesn't list any problems in the log, so I may have to re-install and change the files individually like you suggest.

[k/t]

I did write an explanation; it's in the first post in big letters.

Norman Knights are Feudal, that's why they're 50. Aethelingas are Feudal and are also 50. I haven't tried the Norman Knights yet, but I'm using Aethelingas (who are "only" Elite) and they're very strong (I still don't charge infantry from the front with them, though). Norman Knights are Exceptional, so they have command, 12 attack, 5 charge, 8 armour, 6 skill, 5 shield. Also, they replenish faster, since the Normans and East Franks have higher cavalry replenishment rates. I will see how strong they are once I play with them. I'd like to see Germanicu5's ReallyBadAI added to TLK, by the way. The Unhorsed Knights (Exceptional) are 80 instead of 100 for balance reasons: the Normans already have a Feudal unit with 100, the Norman Foot Soldiers, who are Elite.

Changes to campaign_script and descr_strat are not save-game compatible; changes to the other files are.

You don't have to reinstall the game. Just put the Vanilla files back in, then swap with the RR/RC ones one by one until you find the problem file.

You could make RR/RC compatible with Danelag, but you'd have to go through the files and see which changes you want to keep from which mod.

Nevertheless GREAT stuff you did here, battles are like should be, everything works like a charm, almost done with Norman campaign, superb!

I am glad to hear that. I am happy that other people are enjoying my work as well. We can all get RR/RC tattoos together.

[Berg-i-dum]

You could make RR/RC compatible with Danelag, but you'd have to go through the files and see which changes you want to keep from which mod.

Yep I am about to look that may be I can made it hehe.

[k/t]

This mod looks like an interesting addition, but I could use some help, please. Custom battles work just fine for me, but when I go into the grand campaign screen and select a faction, it immediately goes back to the main menu. Any ideas of what I did incorrectly?

If you installed everything properly, it could be this:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=467534

- There is a random Menu crash, however this is a Vanilla issue and cannot be resolved. Fortunately, this crash is very, very rare!

[VanRW]

If you installed everything properly, it could be this:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=467534

It's possible that's it. I tested the submod out today with the individual files, and it seems its the export_unit and descr_strat, either file causes the menu crash. When vanilla files for those are used, the campaign boots up normally. I did download the files again just to make sure it wasn't a case of them being corrupted, but it still causes the menu crash.

[k/t]

Take a look at the log. It should say something. I had a problem with my descr_strat (which I didn't have in Vanilla TLK) with Vestfold's Heir not being in the family tree. I hadn't touched that part of the file, so I don't know what happened. I solved the problem by making the Heir the brother of the King.

In the case of the EDU, it might be that there are still non-TLK units missing from it. It's weird that it works for some people but not for others. Try this: 1) delete all the units above the TLK section of the RR/RC EDU, 2) copy the entire section of the Vanilla EDU that's above the TLK section and 3) paste it above the RR/RC TLK section. Then find the Hirdmenn entry that's hidden in the non-TLK section and delete it.

[Mihajlo]

Norman Knights are Feudal, that's why they're 50. Aethelingas are Feudal and are also 50. I haven't tried the Norman Knights yet, but I'm using Aethelingas (who are "only" Elite) and they're very strong (I still don't charge infantry from the front with them, though). Norman Knights are Exceptional, so they have command, 12 attack, 5 charge, 8 armour, 6 skill, 5 shield. Also, they replenish faster, since the Normans and East Franks have higher cavalry replenishment rates. I will see how strong they are once I play with them. I'd like to see Germanicu5's ReallyBadAI added to TLK, by the way. The Unhorsed Knights (Exceptional) are 80 instead of 100 for balance reasons: the Normans already have a Feudal unit with 100, the Norman Foot Soldiers, who are Elite.

It is just an observation from custom battles, but I haven't tried all units yet. They just die too fast against other top tier units (foot). When I set them on 60, they still lose against huskarls and other top units, but they manage to kill something along the road to their doom. In this battles I charged only once and let them fight in melee. Im fine with 50 too, no biggie.

We can all get RR/RC tattoos together.

[Fred Putz]

Sorry for the late response - downloading...

Just for the case that i didn´t got it right:

Factions in need for Carl are:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

eastanglia
wesex
northumbria
mercia
spain
horda
norway
denmark
scotland
wales
irconnacht
irmunster
eastfrank
normans
hungary

france and poland are placeholder-factions and don´t need the script. I can add them in if You are unsure - shouldn´t hurt in any way as the script works at FactionTurnStart. I guess i leave the rebels out like everytime - but can also add them in.

Will upload tomorrow....

[Cincinatus]

I did write an explanation; it's in the first post in big letters.

Norman Knights are Feudal, that's why they're 50. Aethelingas are Feudal and are also 50. I haven't tried the Norman Knights yet, but I'm using Aethelingas (who are "only" Elite) and they're very strong (I still don't charge infantry from the front with them, though). Norman Knights are Exceptional, so they have command, 12 attack, 5 charge, 8 armour, 6 skill, 5 shield. Also, they replenish faster, since the Normans and East Franks have higher cavalry replenishment rates. I will see how strong they are once I play with them. I'd like to see Germanicu5's ReallyBadAI added to TLK, by the way. The Unhorsed Knights (Exceptional) are 80 instead of 100 for balance reasons: the Normans already have a Feudal unit with 100, the Norman Foot Soldiers, who are Elite.

Changes to campaign_script and descr_strat are not save-game compatible; changes to the other files are.

You don't have to reinstall the game. Just put the Vanilla files back in, then swap with the RR/RC ones one by one until you find the problem file.

You could make RR/RC compatible with Danelag, but you'd have to go through the files and see which changes you want to keep from which mod.



I am glad to hear that. I am happy that other people are enjoying my work as well. We can all get RR/RC tattoos together.

Will the Norman Unhorsed Knights be effective against armor? I suspect the Frankish Spathamen may be effective against armor, but I feel positive the Unhorsed Knights would be. Knights were trained to fight against other Knights or other heavy armored opponents. They used either weapons designed for and effective against armor or tactics with normally ineffective weapons against armor. In the book by Tolhoffer, written in the time of Knights by a Knight, he clearly illustrates how unarmored knights or armored knights can strike at weak spots of armored knight opponents, and thus render their advantages moot.

Looking at the above, that may be another way to offset some disadvantages/advantages of horse archer units like the Magyars over non horse archer horsemen like the Frankish Miltes. Make them fast, low defense, not long range, as effective or slightly more so at missile attack then the best foot archer units, melee attack low (that was how they were defeated anyway so it makes no sense to make such a number high), and make the unit larger than any other horse unit as other mods like Roma Surrectum II did for more horse heavy cultures like the Magyars.

[smoesville]

Sorry for the late response - downloading...

Just for the case that i didn´t got it right:

Factions in need for Carl are:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

eastanglia
wesex
northumbria
mercia
spain
horda
norway
denmark
scotland
wales
irconnacht
irmunster
eastfrank
normans
hungary

france and poland are placeholder-factions and don´t need the script. I can add them in if You are unsure - shouldn´t hurt in any way as the script works at FactionTurnStart. I guess i leave the rebels out like everytime - but can also add them in.

Will upload tomorrow....

Is CARL a economy script for the Ai?

[k/t]

Yes.

Fred, I've made some changes to the files since uploading them. I meant to upload the newer versions. I'll attach them here. I hope I catch you in time. I'll send you a message too.

[k/t]

Swords never have AP in RR/RC, except for estocs (new for SS RR/RC 2.0!!!!).

The Milites I classified as Professionals, so they have 60 men per unit. The Magyars have 80. They are Skirmishers, so they do have low range. They have low defense and poor melee stats. I also believe they have 0 armour. Check their stats in the EDU.

I haven't touched missile accuracy yet, but that's on the to-do list (I'll copy the values from SS RR/RC).

In other news, I just found how to make the text window bigger. For almost three years I've been torturing myself with a text window 3 cm tall.

[Cincinatus]

Even heavier two handed swords that would not even need skill do to their mass having an effect? This according to manuals and manuscripts from the time of knights, the long swords were used as clubs in some techniques which cause blunt force trauma. Blunt force trauma is the kind of damage axes, clubs, and maces cause, and these are all effective against armor.

Despite the fact, also in modern tests using period weapons and armor, that swords used this way do in fact cause blunt force trauma? This is only long swords, hand and a half, and two handed swords are the ones that might be effectively used this way. I do not understand how RC/RR can declare, knights would not have any techniques or skill to counteract the benefits of armor.

Few weapons a Knight would use would not be effective in their hands, and most would be heavy enough that blunt force alone would be all that is needed. But the Knights did not depend only one the weight or effect of blunt force trauma, they also had highly adapted martial arts training. The martial art of Knights was in fact a form of martial art, despite misleading beliefs or adaptions illustrated in many movies. A knight could use a swords as a club, or a staff and defend or attack. When a opening is made by an opponent, a Knight can very skillfully, jab even the smaller hand and a half sword point in between any plate joints of the opponents armor.

The Knight had enough fighting skills and training that, he would not even need to be armored himself to effectively do this. The hilt of knight swords was heavy and the guards were pointed on either side, this effectively makes the sword when wielded as a club while holding the blade tip end in your hands into a powerful spiked mace like weapon. It IS very effective against swords. Any of the methods, the heaviness of the larger swords, the spiked handle flipped around, or the techniques and training of the knight in using a sword effectively against armored opponents makes a knight very effective against armored opponents. So I suppose I must respectfully disagree with that conclusion k/t. I have too much evidence and research to the contrary to believe that they were not effective against like opponents.

The only possibility would be perhaps some of these methods were not perfected yet but I have a hard time believing that none of them were used by a Knight at any time. It simply makes no sense that a armored warrior would have no method of counteracting the advantages of another like wise heavily armored opponent and yet be a highly skilled, highly trained, high value soldier.

It seems folly to declare no sword has capacity against armor. If an opponent is hit with enough power by a strong and sharp enough sword, it will go through as readily as spears, javelins, or arrows. Some swords would be massive enough, such as the claymore, for example, that even being hit with the blade end would be traumatic. Many swords, especially those used by elite troops such as knights, had deadly attributes to the hilt and pommel. The hilt can be swung at opponents like a fist, or after a successful block, or swung over head like a axe or club. The pommels and hilts of these swords had heavy metal balls, or mace like ends, and or spikes on the sides or bottom. This makes them very useful and adaptable to many situations. So that some swords, even if they sword wielder had no skill or training in how to attack an enemy's weak points of their armor, would still be quite effective against armored opponents. Using the pommel of a sword this way was probably where we got the term "to pommel" someone.

Do the RR/RC really neglect to take these facts into account when assessing combat values?

[k/t]

I'm not contesting the blunt force trauma. I'm just saying that RR/RC doesn't give AP to any swords. Ideally AP wouldn't exist and everything would be done through higher attack numbers, attack delay, soldier spacing and animations, and also the engine would distinguish between different types of weapons and give each a specific effectiveness against each type of armour, but until someone works out a comprehensive system without AP, I'll stick with what PB has done.

Also, there are no two-handed swords in TLK, and there is only one unit with longswords. Units in TLK have a maximum of 9 armour, and most have a lot less, so AP isn't all that important in the end. Not compared to SS, in which you have a bunch of units start with 11 armour or more and get 3 upgrades.

[Mihajlo]

Ideally AP wouldn't exist and everything would be done through higher attack numbers, attack delay, soldier spacing and animations, and also the engine would distinguish between different types of weapons and give each a specific effectiveness against each type of armour

Yes, totally 100% agree! Although 2H units armed with poleaxes n other crushing weapons should (well maybe) have AP.

Also, there are no two-handed swords in TLK, and there is only one unit with longswords.

Yes. Unhorsed knights are good as they are now. IIRC Only saxon huskarls n axe huskarls beat them in 1-1. It would be really overkill to make them stronger. Normans won on hastings because of few factors going on their side. Put a side all non armor-weapon-army factors (like huge march from previous battle, for example), Normans had nice mix of their troops, Harold's army was mostly melee infantry, with little experience against such army formation n composition. In game terms, that battle is after time line, so top tier norman units shouldnt be most powerful in TLK, mixing all they have should be more then enough to win against elite troops, not just to pack knights.

[Fred Putz]

Is CARL a economy script for the Ai?

Yes.

Straight to the point.

Btw: How much is the cheapest unit of this mod? I mean atm Carl reduces the treasury to a value below 70 - so if any unit is cheaper than 70 it won´t work very well as there could be a chance that the AI can recruit (one) more unit(s) - sometimes - in rare cases.

I haven´t seen any kind of money script except for the kings_purse part - hopefully i haven´t overseen anything.

Erm - and i just saw one kind of core buildings in the EDB - so it´s a one settlement type mod?

If anything like that is there i probably have to rework/add in something.

I added my "work" in the campaign_script with
;================================================
;=== Some Information here ==========================
;================================================
at the beginning and the end of it - so You should easily sort out what´s new or copy/paste it to another line.

Also i did 4 versions: Normal//with france and poland//with rebels//with france, poland and rebels. So You can choose or try a bit with Carl-Rebels. In exchange for the late response yesterday. Of course i took the new uploaded files.

Greetings

[k/t]

"Straight to the point."

Of course. What am I, a woman?

Actually, I do tend to answer simple yes or no questions with long, rambling stories, but that's old man behaviour, not woman behaviour. And I do complain about kids today.

Thank you very much, Fred! I will let you know how it goes.

The cheapest unit is over 100. Agents are over 100 too.

There are only cities in the mod. What has to be changed as a result?

Come to think of it, I haven't seen any money script either. However, the bonuses to the King's Purse are huge on higher difficulty settings. Also, this TLK release is a beta, so maybe no money script was made for this version.

[Fred Putz]

What has to be changed as a result?

Nothing