Population of Macedonia and other Hellenistic states

[Manuel I Komnenos]

I was interested to discuss what the population figures for several Hellenistic states would have been like. Concerning Macedonia, I'm not aware of any sources regarding the population and, considering that the Macedonians raised a native army of 21,000 phalangites, 3,000 hypaspistae, 2,000 heavy cavalry and some 3-4,000 Macedonians as garrisons during the Third Macedonian War, in all some 30,000 native Macedonians (ignoring the mercenaries and the Galatians, Illyrians, Thracians and Greeks who were settled in the Kingdom), I'd say the Macedonian Kingdom had a population of some 300,000 Macedonians and some 50,000 foreigners (those mentioned above).

Concerning Epirus, things are even more difficult, concerning sources. What we know is that the Romans captured and sold as slaves 150,000 Epirotes who were in their majority Molossians, as the Thesprotians and the Chaonians who were the other two Epirote major tribes had sided with Rome during the Third Macedonian War.

About the population of Greeks and Macedonians in the Seleucid Empire, the best source is to consider the figures given for the Battle of Magnesia, namely 16,000 phalangites, 10,000 Argyraspidae and a few thousand cavalry, probably all in all 30,000 Greeks-Macedonians. Of course it is to be expected that such a large dominion would have kept a large number of military settlers in the Upper Satrapies or in the Seleucid-Ptolemaic border a figure I'd estimate to at least 10,000 additional men. I'd estimate the overall Greek-Macedonian population of the Seleucid Empire to about 200-300,000 people. Thoughts?

[TWWolfe]

That seems very low to me. Are we talking merely about soldiers, or the entire population? Because i think the Kingdom of Macedon would have at least double that population (For comparison, Syracuse, a very small kingdom, had around 300,000 people)

[Manuel I Komnenos]

That seems very low to me. Are we talking merely about soldiers, or the entire population? Because i think the Kingdom of Macedon would have at least double that population (For comparison, Syracuse, a very small kingdom, had around 300,000 people)

The entire population. Maybe 400,000? Personally I'm judging from the recruitment system of the Macedonian state. The Third Macedonian War was a matter of survival or destruction for the Macedonian Kingdom so I'm assuming that the Macedonians put great effort at recruiting most men who were able to carry arms -probably most men from 20 to 45 years old. Perseus had done several things to appease the populace and boost the economy of the Macedonian state. Namely, he erased all debts of the peasants and brought back several thousand people who were previously expelled by his father, Phillip. Let's not also forget that many Macedonians had left Macedon for Asia and Egypt and that Macedon had suffered severely after the Galatian invasion and the defeat of Phillip in Cynoscephalae.

[TWWolfe]

The entire population. Maybe 400,000? Personally I'm judging from the recruitment system of the Macedonian state. The Third Macedonian War was a matter of survival or destruction for the Macedonian Kingdom so I'm assuming that the Macedonians put great effort at recruiting most men who were able to carry arms -probably most men from 20 to 45 years old. Perseus had done several things to appease the populace and boost the economy of the Macedonian state. Namely, he erased all debts of the peasants and brought back several thousand people who were previously expelled by his father, Phillip. Let's not also forget that many Macedonians had left Macedon for Asia and Egypt and that Macedon had suffered severely after the Galatian invasion and the defeat of Phillip in Cynoscephalae.

Still, even with that, I'd say its at least twice your total estimate. Even with last ditch efforts, theres only so much you can do to gather men to fight. Then there's training them so they can hold a line, etc. Maybe there were a lot more men being trained to fight, but never made it to the battle field before the war ended and so never recieved a mention.

I do agree that if it was a fight or die situation for the kingdom, to field less than 40,000 troops seems a rather low number, but simply because they fielded a low number of troops does not mean the population was small.

[Admiral Piett]

I agree with TWWolfe. If Macedon had even conscripted 70% of fighting age men, who would be left to till the fields, build roads, mine the quarries, and man the trade boats? They aren't like the Spartans where they had the helots and women do all the crap for them.

[conon394]

Your best source is for Greece and Macedonia is

Mogens Herman Hansen, The Shotgun Method and his various published responses and updates.


I believe his current stance in the era of Alexander there were (conservatively) 7 million Greeks and another 500,000 in Macedonia and Epirus (note many 'Greeks') are in Macedonia Epirus as polis. Hanson most recent argument is that 8-10 Million is more likely a better ranger for that total (that is his conservative estimate is an under count).

[Gatsby]

I think I remember reading in another thread on ancient Greece that the Greek population has only marginally grown throughout history, so the population back then would be fairly large.

[Jlop985]

I am actually reading a book now on the Hellenistic age, From Alexander to Cleopatra:The Hellenistic World by Michael Grant. He comes up with a figure of 4,000,000 for the Macedonian kingdom, 7,000,000 for the Ptolemaic kingdom, and 30,000,000 for the Seleucid empire in the the third century BC.

[Tureuki]

I am actually reading a book now on the Hellenistic age, From Alexander to Cleopatra:The Hellenistic World by Michael Grant. He comes up with a figure of 4,000,000 for the Macedonian kingdom, 7,000,000 for the Ptolemaic kingdom, and 30,000,000 for the Seleucid empire in the the third century BC.

Isn't Egypt's population was some 3-4 million in middle ages ?

looks like heavily exaggerated.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Guys, the number of soldiers is by no means representative of the total population.

[NotYetRegistered]

I am actually reading a book now on the Hellenistic age, From Alexander to Cleopatra:The Hellenistic World by Michael Grant. He comes up with a figure of 4,000,000 for the Macedonian kingdom, 7,000,000 for the Ptolemaic kingdom, and 30,000,000 for the Seleucid empire in the the third century BC.

30 million? Whaaaat.

[Rolling Thunder]

The Seleucid Empire spanned from Baktria and northern India all the way to Asia Minor. Why are you surprised?

[Manuel I Komnenos]

I am actually reading a book now on the Hellenistic age, From Alexander to Cleopatra:The Hellenistic World by Michael Grant. He comes up with a figure of 4,000,000 for the Macedonian kingdom, 7,000,000 for the Ptolemaic kingdom, and 30,000,000 for the Seleucid empire in the the third century BC.

4 million about Macedonia sounds gross. The figures about Egypt and the Seleucid Empire sound plausible though.

Guys, the number of soldiers is by no means representative of the total population.

That was what I explained though, in the case of Macedonia it probably is. Those who had full citizenship in Macedonia were a) Macedonians and b) carried weapons. This included both those serving in the army and those who had retired but could still bear their arms. N.G.L. Hammond has given an estimation of 35,000 Macedonian citizens by the time of Perseus (including those currently serving their duty and those who had retired). The rest of the population was -aside of the women and children- made up of Greeks, Galatians, Thracians and Illyrians. Most of those people served in units which fought in their traditional way and not in the phalanx or the hypaspistae which were exclusively manned by Macedonian citizens.

I agree with TWWolfe. If Macedon had even conscripted 70% of fighting age men, who would be left to till the fields, build roads, mine the quarries, and man the trade boats? They aren't like the Spartans where they had the helots and women do all the crap for them.

Indeed. The War kept going for some 4 years but there's no reason to believe that 30,000 Macedonians were at arms during the whole year. When Aemilius Paulus approached Macedonia with a large consular army the Macedonian army was most likely concentrated in full. Let's not forget though that Phillip and Perseus had moved large populations of Galatians and Thracians in the Macedonian Kingdom and especially in the coastal areas while many Macedonians were moved to the North, in order to man the defenses against the Illyrians. Meanwhile, the Macedonians had captured some 80 ships carrying grain from Hellespont, so they didn't really have a problem about the farms.

I think I remember reading in another thread on ancient Greece that the Greek population has only marginally grown throughout history, so the population back then would be fairly large.

The Hellenistic era was probably an exception as the states of Greece had bled out due to the fact that many of their citizens had left for the rich Kingdoms of Asia and Egypt. Aside from that, Macedonia had suffered costly defeats in the hands of the Galatians and Illyrians (King Ptolemy Keraunos was captured and beheaded, his whole army was destroyed) and the Romans (Phillip's army had been almost destroyed in the battle of Cynoscephale). Another interesting fact is that 5,000 Macedonians of Antiochus III abandoned him after his defeat in Thermopylae and joined Phillip. They would have made up a relatively considerable part of Macedonian citizens since many had been killed in the Battle of Cynoscephale.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

30 million? Whaaaat.

The Achaemenid empire is estimated to have been inhabited by 49 million, so why does that not make sense?

[Aetius]

The Achaemenid empire is estimated to have been inhabited by 49 million, so why does that not make sense?

This, 50 million is the commonly held population for the Persian Empire

Estimating populations based on fighting forces is useless. Estimating ancient populations at all is exceedingly difficult. We can hardly estimate global population right now. But OP's estimate of 350,000 people in macedonia is false. Maybe 350,000 males of prime military service age...

[Manuel I Komnenos]

This, 50 million is the commonly held population for the Persian Empire

Estimating populations based on fighting forces is useless. Estimating ancient populations at all is exceedingly difficult. We can hardly estimate global population right now. But OP's estimate of 350,000 people in macedonia is false. Maybe 350,000 males of prime military service age...

So, that means some 4 million people in Macedonia?

[TWWolfe]

Yeah, 4 mil sounds a lot closer to what i would expect than a few hundred thousand.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Yeah, 4 mil sounds a lot closer to what i would expect than a few hundred thousand.

My estimation was about the native Macedonians though. As conon said, there was also a large number of Greeks inhabiting the area, as well as Thracians, Galatians and Illyrians. What bothers me is why didn't the Macedonians provide a larger number of troops if they had as Aetius said, a manpower of 350,000 men. The Macedonians had the upper hand anyway as their supply base was there.

[TWWolfe]

Think of it as comparing a US army base abroad to a town in the US proper. You would expect most of the people in the base to be military and have training, but you wouldn't expect the same thing from the people in the town. Like you said, the Macedonians who lived elsewhere did so because they had been paid in land and money for thier military service.

In Macedon proper, however, not everyone is going to be a soldier or have soldierly training. You will have farmers, craftsmen. Civilians who likely as not have never held a pike or a sword before in thier lives. They didn't have 350,000 soldiers. they had 350, 000 men who met the criteria to be trained as a soldier.

it would have taken time to actually train the majority of these non soldiers to be capable, and as you pointed out, the kingdom was fighting for survival and time was simply not something they had in abundant supply.

[PointOfViewGun]

Do you guys have any sources to back up these numbers at millions? Seems like you're flying pretty high...