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Thread: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

  1. #81
    Wareg's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Glad to hear that pictures will be at least a bit useful

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by xpoing View Post
    superb site with all the flags and coa!

    http://www.krigsspil.dk/download/download_3.html
    Very useful page. I am fan to heraldy and medieval banners.

    And also, great pictures Wareg!

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    Interesting, have you got more info about It? Were bows still common in nothern Italy or term ''archer'' refers to crossbowmen?
    I've found somewhere that in Courtrai 1302 there was also contingent of mercenary javelinmen.
    This info is from the Villani chronicles.
    I don't think thats Villani confused the two vocables, because he written in the same text "Arciers" and "Arbalestriers". Arciers being the milaneses, and the Arbalestriers being the genoeses leads by Rainier of Grimaldi, who became Amiral of France and Lord of Cagne two years later.


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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    You can present it in this thread and there's no rush really, when you will have free time and have nothing to do, you can give it a shot. For English names traduction, no worries, i can handle it however if there's unique names for soldiers, please let us know.

    One unit France used was Les Enfants Perdus ; Probably in the 14-15th century, those guys were acting as Doppelsoldner, first ot charge the enemy but paid twice due to the very hardcore work.
    Hum, I'm not sure about a total similarity with the Doppelsoldner . .The Doppelsoldner role was just a part of their specuiality. From what I recall, they were more also like skirmishers with very complete skills. Their missions could be quite diverse but mostly scouting/harassing the ennemy lines, bothering the ennemy's pre-battle manoeuvres and in the same time giving more time for the french troops to assemble in order. This is for the pre-melee part.
    During the melee, they were indeed cting like Doppelsoldner, and were infiltrating in between lines, taking action on particular targets and then retreating behind lines again. I read somewhere that a french general didn't like to use them during the battle as he considered their retreat could be interpretated as a routing by other troops and have an affect on morale. Still they remained as a strong tradition in french armied and I remember sources mentionning them until the 17th century. Atthat time heir action was the same as tirailleurs.
    This was quite risky as for the pre-battle part, they were quite vulnerable to the ennemy troops (the ennemy cavalery especially). So they were considered as burned heads (don't know if its the right expression for fearless...). This explain the primes. As for the name, it can have two meaning : one is closely associating to the cotemporean meaning of "perdu", the other being more associated to the
    strong religious medieval connotations of "perdu".
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    Hum, I'm not sure about a total similarity with the Doppelsoldner . .The Doppelsoldner role was just a part of their specuiality. From what I recall, they were more also like skirmishers with very complete skills. Their missions could be quite diverse but mostly scouting/harassing the ennemy lines, bothering the ennemy's pre-battle manoeuvres and in the same time giving more time for the french troops to assemble in order. This is for the pre-melee part.
    During the melee, they were indeed cting like Doppelsoldner, and were infiltrating in between lines, taking action on particular targets and then retreating behind lines again. I read somewhere that a french general didn't like to use them during the battle as he considered their retreat could be interpretated as a routing by other troops and have an affect on morale. Still they remained as a strong tradition in french armied and I remember sources mentionning them until the 17th century. Atthat time heir action was the same as tirailleurs.
    This was quite risky as for the pre-battle part, they were quite vulnerable to the ennemy troops (the ennemy cavalery especially). So they were considered as burned heads (don't know if its the right expression for fearless...). This explain the primes. As for the name, it can have two meaning : one is closely associating to the cotemporean meaning of "perdu", the other being more associated to the
    strong religious medieval connotations of "perdu".
    Imteresting, it adds more onto the use and description of those French soldiers, which also proves that I was not alone talking about them. +rep.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post
    Imteresting, it adds more onto the use and description of those French soldiers, which also proves that I was not alone talking about them. +rep.
    You're welcome :-)

    No, you're definitely not the only one talking about it. There's something metaphorical in this terminology that will make any research on the web a bit complicate. But still, there are some ancient as well as contemporean sources on it. Most of the references are set in 15/16/17 th century. So, they might be some sources for the 14th century to, but I can't be categorical.

    This was originaly more a speciality than a regiment's name. Any military corp would have his "enfants perdus". But later some regiments would use this terminology as a name.

    Anyway, this would make a nice naming for a skirmisher troop and there is a nice medieval ring to it.
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    You're welcome :-)

    No, you're definitely not the only one talking about it. There's something metaphorical in this terminology that will make any research on the web a bit complicate. But still, there are some ancient as well as contemporean sources on it. Most of the references are set in 15/16/17 th century. So, they might be some sources for the 14th century to, but I can't be categorical.

    This was originaly more a speciality than a regiment's name. Any military corp would have his "enfants perdus". But later some regiments would use this terminology as a name.

    Anyway, this would make a nice naming for a skirmisher troop and there is a nice medieval ring to it.
    Further more details, thank you sir and indeed, Les Enfants Perdus is an excellent skirmisher name for a unique unit.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Arthur Tilley, Medieval France: A Companion to French Studies

    http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/tilley.htm


    A lot of information on the french army during this period.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Enfants Perdus...do it would means Orphans? Would means they have nothing to lose in the earthly world(no family) and so, don't mind about charging a whole swiss regiment with their espadons???

    Sounds really romantic...guys who used espadons in french armies(like in Marignan, Ravenne) were certainly not "lost souls" nor orphans. They were small nobles and received fief-wages like most of french soldiers, were trained to use their weapons(you can find a lot of engraving showing fencing fight with espadons-zweihander)
    BTW, I'm not sure then french nobles with espadons were symetric to swiss and germans doppelsoldiers or whatever they were called.
    These nobles were mercenaries but only for the King or a french lord.

    EDIT: apologies, its well existed, but not like Dopplesolders, nor french, its a savoyard unit, they had a musket, a little shield and a sword(more like a rapiere)...are into the savoyard roster plan from the italian fora.
    But its really a late unit, something like 1550. From Marignan, Pavia, and Ravenne battle narration, I was thinking its was a fantaisist unit, sorry.
    Last edited by VINC.XXIII; July 09, 2013 at 10:47 AM.


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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by VINC.XXIII View Post
    Enfants Perdus...do it would means Orphans? Would means they have nothing to lose in the earthly world(no family) and so, don't mind about charging a whole swiss regiment with their espadons???

    Sounds really romantic...guys who used espadons in french armies(like in Marignan, Ravenne) were certainly not "lost souls" nor orphans. They were small nobles and received fief-wages like most of french soldiers, were trained to use their weapons(you can find a lot of engraving showing fencing fight with espadons-zweihander)
    BTW, I'm not sure then french nobles with espadons were symetric to swiss and germans doppelsoldiers or whatever they were called.
    These nobles were mercenaries but only for the King or a french lord.

    EDIT: apologies, its well existed, but not like Dopplesolders, nor french, its a savoyard unit, they had a musket, a little shield and a sword(more like a rapiere)...are into the savoyard roster plan from the italian fora.
    But its really a late unit, something like 1550. From Marignan, Pavia, and Ravenne battle narration, I was thinking its was a fantaisist unit, sorry.
    Thanks for pointing this out my friend, will definitively be careful with them.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Hello, I'm not (by far ) a professional nor amator historian, but some little things here I' might help with :

    In the expression "enfants perdus", "enfants" is to be understood as "enfants de Dieu", that is "children of god". Which we all are, no matter our age. To call them lost childs means that they are lost to god, which in medieval french can be seen as a metaphor of imminent death. Again, most of the time, when I crossed this term in a book, it wasn't associated to a special unit, but to a speciality, like "éclaireur" for example.

    I don't remember who did that but you can't label "Etienne Marcel" as a patrician. He is in fact the exact opposite as he is a bourgeois. His familly was one of the most important businessman familly in Paris and I can't imagine any patrician/aristocrat acccepting to do something as vulgar as business at the time. He was a delegate of the "tiers-etat" and was one of those that help the parisian bourgeoisie to become a political force. I guess that the bourgeois, at that time had their own professional milice. So they were also a military force.

    About the Fleur de Lys : they are white for the house of Bourbon, golden for the house of Capet.
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    About the Fleur de Lys : they are white for the house of Bourbon, golden for the house of Capet.
    The fleur de lys are gold (yellow) for both, on a blue ground for Capet & Valois, on a silver (white) ground for Bourbon (even though metal on metal is a breach of the western heraldry rules).

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    Last edited by druzhina345; September 25, 2014 at 01:44 AM.

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    yup, white(silver) is a declinaison of the gold color in late era for provinces, colonies, royal armies. And probably some other things. Its have nothing to do with medieval Bourbons who will be depicted in second campaign of Wotw if this campaign will be done. The Bourbons had the broken lilies like other apanagists from royal family.

    Also, as white things: you have the right cross on blue background for retinued professional late units; like the bretons used their black cross on white background to distinguish from other frenchmen. So white cross is usable in late medieval times, but its need some justifications. But always better to use the right cross than to put everywhere the lilies.


    "even though metal on metal is a breach of the western heraldry rules" yes, its what says heraldry books. But we have a case in medieval era.
    The three golden lilies given by Charles VII of Valois to Joan of Arc. On the left, its hard to see, but are the three lilies adopted to praise the Holy Trinity. On this flag, its probably Saint-Michel and Gabriel, I always wondered who was the third one.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Not sure, but I guess its unic.
    Last edited by VINC.XXIII; July 30, 2013 at 07:25 PM.


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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerevan View Post
    I don't remember who did that but you can't label "Etienne Marcel" as a patrician. He is in fact the exact opposite as he is a bourgeois. His familly was one of the most important businessman familly in Paris and I can't imagine any patrician/aristocrat acccepting to do something as vulgar as business at the time. He was a delegate of the "tiers-etat" and was one of those that help the parisian bourgeoisie to become a political force. I guess that the bourgeois, at that time had their own professional milice. So
    I don't see how you could categorize him differently.Marcel did not made vulgar stuff, he was an important man both from an economic point, and from a local politic point. That is to be patrician. He was Prevost of Merchants, his father-in-law was Pierre des Essarts. What do you need more to considere him as Patrician of Paris?
    If Pierre des Essarts and his family weren't patricians, then, nobody was patrician.

    quoting wiki:
    "Étienne Marcel, comme Jacob van Artevelde dans le Comté de Flandre, est une personnalité issue du grand patriciat urbain proche du pouvoir qui s’est illustrée par la défense des petits artisans et compagnons qui forment le gros des citadins"
    Stephan Marcel, as Jacob van Artevelde, from the county of Flanders, was a character coming from the great urban patriciate close to the [royal]power, who have defended the petty craftmen..."
    Ok, litteral translation, I'm bad in english, but an historian under the orders of Jean Favier himself written "Patricien" about Etienne Marcel...hum
    I think you're confusing the roman understanding of latin word "patricius" and what the medieval reality made of this old word.


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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    God, I was not judging Etienne Marcel's actions. That would be hilarious for a 21th century anonym to state that E Marcel achieved nothing. When I used the adjective "vulgar" I was not expressing my personal opinions. I used it to describe his father's activities from the other side's perspective. I was using a cliché that was often used by the nobility (what the french called "noblesse d'épée" et "noblesse de robe") to depreciate the "new praticians" (or what the wikippedia article you cited calls : the urban patriciate).

    But you're right : I thought you were using the word "patricien" for its latin etymology. So, basically I thought you were stating that Etienne Marcel was a noble. My mistake.
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    In regards to the French royal bodyguard, there are a few terms I came across that could be used. While the first few have no solid historical reference, the retinue that followed the king into battle could be called a number of things.

    -King's Guard/ Garde du Roi
    -King's Retinue/ Cortege du Roi
    -Royal Guard/Garde Royale
    -Household Guard/Garde de Maison

    This last term is a little too specific, but interesting all the same. In 1422 the dauphin created a company of 100 men at arms to serve as the French king's bodyguard to accompany him in battle. They were known as the Hundred Lances of France/Cent Lances de France.

    I don't claim to be an expert, but just some ideas. Love this mod, I hope it gets completed
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