[Faction Research] Kingdom of France

[162eRI]

Well, they used archers of course, but not longbowmen until the 14th century (as explain above) to the 16th century. The Franc archers, according to Viollet le Duc started during the 14th century.

Here, some late 14th century miniatures of French (and Britany) archers:



Oh, and a very nice miniature of French knights late 13th century

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And an interesting way to display a flag



I should rather give you the link, you can search for many european countries, here I put France:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/sear...gallery&page=1

Cheers

[Matthias the great]

Hello,

I don't know if somebody know the french team how begin to make this mod :

http://planetetotalwar.forumpro.fr/t...r-de-la-guerre

http://www.mundusbellicus.fr/forum/f...r-de-la-Guerre

Apparently the creator wished to let his work free for other modders. Maybe you could find some interest in his work.

Anyway your mods seems to be an excellent one.

[Wareg]

How many types of knights/men-at-arms are you planing? In 1245-1315 campaign there are early knights and late knights so I guess that in 1245-1454 campaign there will be at leat 2 (or even 3?) new.
For France at a time of Crecy and Poitiers I suggest traditional 3 heavy cavalry units:
-sergeants in mail, rather with open helmets, on unarmoured horses
-knights with mail and partial plate/coat of plates, great helmets/bascinets, on horses only with caparisons (in early XIV there was regress of horse armour)
-hosehold knights on horses armoured (mail/even some plate elements) only from front
And also analogous dismounted:
-dismounted sergeants with shields and short weapons
-dismounted knights with spear wall ability, 2 handed lances and shields on backs (knights in this times often used lances/shortened lances as primary weapon)
-dismounted hosehold knights with axes, primitive poleaxes and longswords (but not zweihenders!), with shield on backs
What do you think about such men-at-arms roster?

[Polycarpe]

How many types of knights/men-at-arms are you planing? In 1245-1315 campaign there are early knights and late knights so I guess that in 1245-1454 campaign there will be at leat 2 (or even 3?) new.
For France at a time of Crecy and Poitiers I suggest traditional 3 heavy cavalry units:
-sergeants in mail, rather with open helmets, on unarmoured horses
-knights with mail and partial plate/coat of plates, great helmets/bascinets, on horses only with caparisons (in early XIV there was regress of horse armour)
-hosehold knights on horses armoured (mail/even some plate elements) only from front
And also analogous dismounted:
-dismounted sergeants with shields and short weapons
-dismounted knights with spear wall ability, 2 handed lances and shields on backs (knights in this times often used lances/shortened lances as primary weapon)
-dismounted hosehold knights with axes, primitive poleaxes and longswords (but not zweihenders!), with shield on backs
What do you think about such men-at-arms roster?

Since we are now planning to do only two campaigns which the one with France and the others will be in the timeframe of the HYW, we didn't focus as much as Britannia but we have a fairly good idea on what the roster of the knights and sergeants will be like in this period. But mainly, we plan to use one type of knight (household nobleman) and one type of sergeant (household professional).

• The household knights, at the beginning of the HYW (1337), were wearing "proto" transitional armours. With this added protection, the shield became less used and instead, since this new metallurgy advance was widespread, the knights were exchanging their one-handed weapons and shields for weapons that give more impact such as the Pole-Axe, two-handed hammers and the like. So most dismounted knights will use varied superior quality polearm weapons.
• For the Household sergeants, basically, the sergeants had the same equipment of the knights except of lesser quality. For example, you will have a knight having a transitional armour while his sergeant would wear a heavy mail hauberk. Just picture the sergeants wearing the first generation of protection while the knights and retainers were wearing the second generation (the newest, the better) armours. Dismounted, they would fight with varied one-handed weapons and using shields. (remember I'm talking about the "generic" model of the Sergeants which most western factions were having).
• And for the mounted version, it is the same for the Sergeants and knights of having 1st/2nd/etc. bard protection for their mounts.

[Wareg]

You've written one type of knight and one of sergeants but what about bodyguard, won't it be third type? And in early HYW mail or proto transitional armour is enough but in XV, when plate armour was widespread, not, so I guess that there will be at leats 2 units of knights (early and late), 2 of sergeants, 2 of bodyguard = 6, and all will have mounted versions. 2 x 6 = 16 men-at-arms units! Of course if I'm not wrong in my guess.
I see that we agree that dismounted sergeants should have one handed weapon + shield while knights 2 handed weapon. However, I think for earlier (XIV century) knights lance used as 2 handed spear was more widespread than pole axes. Such lance, full lenght or shortened was used for ex. in Poitiers and Sempach battle. Pole axe will fit better for XV century upgrade of knight. Knights with such atypical pike (with banners ) will be also nice diversity. just imagine: one pike men-at-arms unit, one shield+sword(sergeants) and one with 2 handed axes/swords (dismounted bodyguard, as Jean II in Poitiers).
About barding-but what exactly bard will you add for sergeant/knight/bodyguard in early HYW phase?

In support of my concept some minatures from http://manuscriptminiatures.com/ (French, mainly from 1380-1400):
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/cy-c...enealogie/251/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/cy-c...enealogie/253/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/chro...-20-c-vii/840/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/chro...20-c-vii/1803/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/chro...20-c-vii/1812/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/chro...20-c-vii/1819/
-http://manuscriptminiatures.com/la-c...thompson/1291/
And a bit later image:
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wi...at_Sempach.jpg
As you can see lance/shortened lance, held with both hands, was very popular weapon until It was replaced by more anti-armour weapons. Images show that dismounted knights in the end of XIV century used phalanx-like formations, even as late as in 1422 lance was primary weapon of dismounted knights in battle of Arbedo.

[Philippe-IV.]

Hello!
I have many informations about France in middle age. About each king, famous characters, battles, structure of army, equipment of soldiers, cities in that era etc. I am specialized to era from Louis IX. Saint to Charles VIII., and I am big fan of french knights, so I know every detail about them ;-). I will be happy if I may help you with something!
And, I am from Czech republic (sorry for my english). So I may help with Bohemia too. I have informations mainly about last kings of Premyslid dynasty, from Premysl I. Otakar to Vaclav III. (for example, I thing, that Království České or Země Koruny české is better than Königreich Böhmen...)

[Wareg]

My conception of roster:
1)Bodyguard
-tier 1(1250-1350 AD). Probably similar to English bodyguard.
-tier 2(1350-1400). Transitional armours, closed bascinets(for ex. hounskulls). Dismounted version with 2 handed axes/proto-poleaxes, shields on backs.
Mounted with shields and short weapons. Horses with champrons, crinieres and peytral/mail on chests.
-tier 3(1400-1450). Full plate armours, hounskulls and another closed bascinets, barbutes. Dismounted version with poleaxes, mounted with squere shields and maces, moring stars, horseman's picks.
Horses with mixed partial plate armours.
2) Men-at-arms
-tier 1(1250-1300). Both versions (mounted/dismounted) equipment as English knights
-tier 2(1300-1350). Analogously, as Late English knights (maybe with lighter armoured horses, as horses of Lowland Knights)
-tier 3(1350-1400). Men with transitional armours mixed with men with coat of plates and some plate elements (gloves, leg protection). Bascinets(open, with nasal or hounshull), rarely late forms of great helmet. Dismounted version with longswords mixed with (less frequently)2 handed falchions and glaives with short handle (Maciejowski bible), shields on backs.
Mounted verion with weapons and bards as in earliest tiers.
-tier 4(1400-1450). Men with full plate armours mixed with men with transitional. Hounskulls, another bascinets, barbutes. Poleaxes and maybe rarely 2 handed moring stars.
Horses with plate elements - champron, criniere and peytral/mail on chest. Horsmen with squere shields and maces, moring stars, axes and horseman's picks.
3) Sergeants
-tier 1(1250-1350). Both versions as English sergeants.
-tier 2(1350-1450). Chainmail shirts and brigantines, rarely plate elements. Kettle hats, bascinets(open/with nasal). Both versions (mounted and dismounted) with shields/bucklers (although I'm not sure if they were common enough, maybe 2 handed weapons are better idea...) and short weapons - swords, falchions, horseman's picks, axes, maces, moring stars.
Unarmoured horses.
4) Retinue crossbowmen
-probably Italian mercenaries. There is mysterious info about French large amounts of ''archers'' in battle of Azincourt but probably It refers to salary, not main weapon. French started to train their own longbowmen after 1448.
5) Crossbowmen
-aketons, mail coifs, kettle hats/bascinets. Composite crossbows, swords/falchions. Maybe with tier 2 with pavise shields and jack of plates/thicker aketons.
6) Spearmen
-as English Geldons. Maybe with tier 2 with jack of plates/thicker aketons.
7) Infantry
-with 2 handed weapon-axes, moring stars, glaives, rarely goedandags (used not only in Low countries but also Nothern France). Maybe tier 2 with jack of plates/thicker aketons.

Such roster will be also quite universal base to many other rosters. I was thinking about lances for French dismounted men-at-arms, maybe actually It is better idea to create them with another weapons (although in manuscripts lances are really most comon), but I hope that at least Austrian(will Austria be inluded?) dismounted knights tier 1350-1400 will receive solid ''lance wall'', they will be hard nut to cruck even for infamous Swiss halberds...

[Bernardius]

great to see something is going on here! Thanks for the hard work! im highly excited waiting for your project!

[Giacomo Colonna]

4) Retinue crossbowmen
-probably Italian mercenaries. There is mysterious info about French large amounts of ''archers'' in battle of Azincourt but probably It refers to salary, not main weapon. French started to train their own longbowmen after 1448.
5) Crossbowmen
-aketons, mail coifs, kettle hats/bascinets. Composite crossbows, swords/falchions. Maybe with tier 2 with pavise shields and jack of plates/thicker aketons.

Not only Genoese Crossbowmen in France: also Navarreses, Castillans, Catalans were Mercenary Crossbowmen as well with their own captains, separated from the genoese contingents/fleets(because the mentionned X-Bowmen were also used for naval wars, so each had its own fleet for the Service to the King)
In south France, also Sieneses and Florentines Crossbowmen were presents, but in very small numbers. Not need a unit for those ones.
I don't know about Azincourt french "archers", but under Philippe the Handsome,a contingent of 1000 heavy and professional archers have been hired(Courtrai 1302, french defeat), they were from the Valley of Pô, and called "Gens de pied et arciers du Pays de Milan" in this text.

[Wareg]

a contingent of 1000 heavy and professional archers have been hired

Interesting, have you got more info about It? Were bows still common in nothern Italy or term ''archer'' refers to crossbowmen?
I've found somewhere that in Courtrai 1302 there was also contingent of mercenary javelinmen.

I think that ''native'' militia crossbowmen + Italian/Spanish mercenary crossbowmen + local Gascon crossbowmen(also as mercenaries) will be enough for France regarding shooters.

[Polycarpe]

I will answer to everyone later today promise.

[Polycarpe]

My conception of roster:
1)Bodyguard
-tier 1(1250-1350 AD). Probably similar to English bodyguard.

Not part of the timeframe of the campaign (except 1337).

-tier 2(1350-1400). Transitional armours, closed bascinets(for ex. hounskulls). Dismounted version with 2 handed axes/proto-poleaxes, shields on backs.
Mounted with shields and short weapons. Horses with champrons, crinieres and peytral/mail on chests.

Agreed.

-tier 3(1400-1450). Full plate armours, hounskulls and another closed bascinets, barbutes. Dismounted version with poleaxes, mounted with squere shields and maces, moring stars, horseman's picks.
Horses with mixed partial plate armours.

Agreed.

2) Men-at-arms
-tier 1(1250-1300). Both versions (mounted/dismounted) equipment as English knights

Not part of the timeframe.

-tier 2(1300-1350). Analogously, as Late English knights (maybe with lighter armoured horses, as horses of Lowland Knights)

Yes but on the contrary, they will be as equipped as England. After all, French noblemen were quite impetuous to Royal orders but they were rich, as such, access to the best protection which include heavy bards.

-tier 3(1350-1400). Men with transitional armours mixed with men with coat of plates and some plate elements (gloves, leg protection). Bascinets(open, with nasal or hounshull), rarely late forms of great helmet. Dismounted version with longswords mixed with (less frequently)2 handed falchions and glaives with short handle (Maciejowski bible), shields on backs.
Mounted verion with weapons and bards as in earliest tiers.

Follow the same equipment evolution as England. Would give them two-handed weapons (polearm) instead since the nobles were mostly the only one who get access to transitional armour and already, this type of armour provided excellent protection vs arrows and slashing/piercing armour.

-tier 4(1400-1450). Men with full plate armours mixed with men with transitional. Hounskulls, another bascinets, barbutes. Poleaxes and maybe rarely 2 handed moring stars.
Horses with plate elements - champron, criniere and peytral/mail on chest. Horsmen with squere shields and maces, moring stars, axes and horseman's picks.

Agreed.

3) Sergeants
-tier 1(1250-1350). Both versions as English sergeants.

Agreed when they start in 1337 but with more similarity to 1300 knights, the typical follow up between sergeants and knights was Sergeants was always one step after the knights in term of equipment, so when the knights has mid 14th century equipment, the Sergeants would have early 14th century equipment; they are minor nobles and has somewhat money so they would get access to not the latest equipment but to still good protection before (same processus as /D tv and HD tv; 3D are the new stuff and it's the best and most expensive but HD tv is now cheaper since there's a new technology but still very good, strange parallel but it defines a bit the difference, I hope you got the picture? )

-tier 2(1350-1450). Chainmail shirts and brigantines, rarely plate elements. Kettle hats, bascinets(open/with nasal). Both versions (mounted and dismounted) with shields/bucklers (although I'm not sure if they were common enough, maybe 2 handed weapons are better idea...) and short weapons - swords, falchions, horseman's picks, axes, maces, moring stars.
Unarmoured horses.

As explained above, if our knights has access to full plates, our sergeants get access to transitional armour and proto-plate armour. Also, they will still act as 1-handed swordsmen for most of the timeframe. Same processus for bards, they will get access to partial mail bards/capped but not really plates.

4) Retinue crossbowmen
-probably Italian mercenaries. There is mysterious info about French large amounts of ''archers'' in battle of Azincourt but probably It refers to salary, not main weapon. French started to train their own longbowmen after 1448.

Hesitating between making it part of the French roster or as generic mercenary roster with a special access for France.

5) Crossbowmen
-aketons, mail coifs, kettle hats/bascinets. Composite crossbows, swords/falchions. Maybe with tier 2 with pavise shields and jack of plates/thicker aketons.

Part of generic roster.

6) Spearmen

As above.

-as English Geldons. Maybe with tier 2 with jack of plates/thicker aketons.

Agreed.

7) Infantry
-with 2 handed weapon-axes, moring stars, glaives, rarely goedandags (used not only in Low countries but also Nothern France). Maybe tier 2 with jack of plates/thicker aketons.

Part of the generic roster; both one-handed and two-handed weapon users.

Such roster will be also quite universal base to many other rosters. I was thinking about lances for French dismounted men-at-arms, maybe actually It is better idea to create them with another weapons (although in manuscripts lances are really most comon), but I hope that at least Austrian(will Austria be inluded?) dismounted knights tier 1350-1400 will receive solid ''lance wall'', they will be hard nut to cruck even for infamous Swiss halberds...

This is quite interesting about the lance, we will discuss about it however Austria will not be included (I know, I need to make an update for the second campaign but just can't find the time to do so).

Not only Genoese Crossbowmen in France: also Navarreses, Castillans, Catalans were Mercenary Crossbowmen as well with their own captains, separated from the genoese contingents/fleets(because the mentionned X-Bowmen were also used for naval wars, so each had its own fleet for the Service to the King)
In south France, also Sieneses and Florentines Crossbowmen were presents, but in very small numbers. Not need a unit for those ones.

In a sense, it convinces me to create advanced/special mercenary crossbowmen.

I don't know about Azincourt french "archers", but under Philippe the Handsome,a contingent of 1000 heavy and professional archers have been hired(Courtrai 1302, french defeat), they were from the Valley of Pô, and called "Gens de pied et arciers du Pays de Milan" in this text.

A potential special unit we may have there.

[Mausolos of Caria]

This is quite interesting about the lance, we will discuss about it however Austria will not be included (I know, I need to make an update for the second campaign but just can't find the time to do so).

An updated list of the factions in the second campaign is necessary indeed

[Wareg]

If campaign will start in 1337, early bodyguard is indeed needless. But what about French counterparts of Late English Knights and sergeants-are you planing to add them (1337-circa1350) or start with 1350-1400 versions?
If game start in 1337 I will suggest only one tier of armour (thicker aketons/jack of plates) for militia units and pavise for crossbowmen.

Yes but on the contrary, they will be as equipped as England. After all, French noblemen were quite impetuous to Royal orders but they were rich, as such, access to the best protection which include heavy bards.

''The use of horse-armour seemingly declined during the early decades of the 14th century, despite the presence of an elite of French cavalry on armoured horse at the battle of Potiers. Even here such armours seems to have been limited to the heads or forequarters of the animals''
From ''Poitiers 1356: the capture of a king'' by David Nicolle.

Horse armour is very rare in medieval pictures. I think soft armours (like these of Scotish knights) for French knights will be enough. Champrons, crinieres and peytral/mail on chests only for elite-bodyguard (at Poitiers only 300 of French knights had horses armoured enough to try to attack English poisitions).

In England, during the reign of Edward I, knights were required to fight on armoured (at least soft armours but mail probably also) horses so mount model of ''late English knights'' seems fine, but I don't know If use of horse armours amongst knights were quite widespread earlier and later - maybe It declined as in case of France?

Would give them two-handed weapons (polearm) instead since the nobles were mostly the only one who get access to transitional armour and already, this type of armour provided excellent protection vs arrows and slashing/piercing armour.

I'm suggesting longswords cause It is only timeframe when one and half handed swords were quite common as primary weapon. Earlier one hadnded weapon+shield was preffered, later-poleaxes. It will be sadly without 2 handed swordsmen animation .
Against soft armours and mail longsword's thrusts were probably effective, also against mail parts of (rare on 14th century battlefields)transitional armours-If not why was It such widespread?

Agreed when they start in 1337 but with more similarity to 1300 knights, the typical follow up between sergeants and knights was Sergeants was always one step after the knights in term of equipment, so when the knights has mid 14th century equipment, the Sergeants would have early 14th century equipment; they are minor nobles and has somewhat money so they would get access to not the latest equipment but to still good protection before (same processus as /D tv and HD tv; 3D are the new stuff and it's the best and most expensive but HD tv is now cheaper since there's a new technology but still very good, strange parallel but it defines a bit the difference, I hope you got the picture? )

As explained above, if our knights has access to full plates, our sergeants get access to transitional armour and proto-plate armour. Also, they will still act as 1-handed swordsmen for most of the timeframe. Same processus for bards, they will get access to partial mail bards/capped but not really plates.

.
I gnerally agree with you but with some exceptions. 1350-1400 sergeant had similar armour to 1300-1350 knight (mail, coat of plates) but not great helmets-simply more comfortable bascinets replaced great helmets quite quickly and they were cheap enough to become standard helmet also of sergeants.
I think sergeants horses should be unarmoured during whole timeframe- as I've written barding wasn't common and It should be reserved only for knights.

Still I'm not sure if French retinue longbowmen (''Franc archers'') unit should be created or not I've read that they were created in 1448 in France, in 1425(or 1426) in Britany but there is also info about French archers in Azincourt and 162eRI's pictures above...

This is quite interesting about the lance, we will discuss about it however Austria will not be included (I know, I need to make an update for the second campaign but just can't find the time to do so).

I hope that you will not dispose of Swiss!
Regarding dismounted men-at-arms with lances I think that presence of such unique unit, distinctive among another 1350-1400 men-at-arms with axes/swords, will be interesting. Maybe for Enland-cause of their defencive, static tactic, or Milan-to outrange dangerous Swiss halberds (as in battle of Arbedo)?

[Philippe-IV.]

France, armor and horses: French knights was the best equiped soldiers in middle ages. France is place where new types of armor was created (i know, Milanese armor, german armor... but, who used that armor? Frenchmen!) and where was financies to buy that armor, because feudals was sometimes richer then king! So, they may bought armor for horses of course! If they will not have superior armor, it will be mistake. I want to play some medieval games, where I may see the difference (in quality of equipment) between french and for example english nobility... ;-)

[Polycarpe]

France, armor and horses: French knights was the best equiped soldiers in middle ages. France is place where new types of armor was created (i know, Milanese armor, german armor... but, who used that armor? Frenchmen!) and where was financies to buy that armor, because feudals was sometimes richer then king! So, they may bought armor for horses of course! If they will not have superior armor, it will be mistake. I want to play some medieval games, where I may see the difference (in quality of equipment) between french and for example english nobility... ;-)

This is mostly the same perspective I do have but I would like more references upon that topic but mainly for sure, French nobility was quite rich, among the richer in Western Europe and since this case, they would get access to the latest equipment (notably from the Italian).

[Wareg]

France was with no doubt most populated state in Western Europe, even after Black Death pandemic.
They could create huge armies, their armies could be based on men-at-arms cause they were much numerous than in case for ex. England. But why do you say that avarage French knight was better armed than English, German or Italian? Is there any evidance that average French knight was wealthier?
At battle of Beneweto 1266 French had mails, German - coat of plates.

Maybe those barding required by Edward I was only soft, padded armours and both English and French knight's horses were similary armoured?

I'm also very interested what was reason of declining in use of horse armours in early XIV century according to Nicolle Maybe increased weight of rider (additional coat of plates/plate elements), but It was only few kilos more...

My reasoning is simple: after Crecy French fought on foot, only small elite units (300 cavalry at Poitiers, several hundred at Agincourt) remainded mounted. With no doubt they had best armoured horses, rest of men-at-arms chose fighting on foot (despite fact that they lose speed, maneuverability, powerful charge and higher ''knightly" position!) cause they didn't want to fall down from less armoured animals.
But even those elite mounted units weren't totaly reststant to English fire. At Poitiers horses were armored only from fronts. Rest of men-at-arms (>95%!) probable had even less armoured horses.

Maybe you can change frequency of mail parts of armours in unit of knights-instead 50% horses with partial mail for ex. 20% will be more realistic?

[Philippe-IV.]

After Crécy, French fought on foot, because they think that they was defeated by english foot knights. They was too proud to accept, that lowborn bowmen can reverse course of battle. After all, englishmen fought on foot more often than frenchmen... So, who need horse plating more? But, I know, I love France and french knights, so my view may be deformed :-).

[Wareg]

So why did proud French choose fighting on foot against dismounted English men-at-arms?

After all, englishmen fought on foot more often than frenchmen... So, who need horse plating more?

You are right, at Crecy French needed barding more than English (which doesn't mean that they used It widely),but info I've found is from Edward I reign, English knights started to dsmount before battle a bit later.

[Philippe-IV.]

As I say - because they thought that they was defeated mainly due to english foot knights. They wanted to "vrátit jim to zpátky i s úroky" I don´t know, how to write it in english - want to give it back to englishmen... defeat them by the same way...