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Thread: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

  1. #1
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Again, army composition, political issues, families, etc. for the names, it won't be a big deal, le Français c'est facile pour mon cas.

    One thing I do know about the French; not well trained, the reliability on the knights was too poor, rivalry between nobles was quite present, therefore not much loyalty resides within the kingdom. Militia and mercenaries was forming the major part of French armies regarding the first military reform (not the third one in the 15th century). This is a small beginning, now it's your turn.

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    Deathshade's Avatar Discens
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Knight : mail, sword and long lance. XIV : partial plate. XV : full plate. Little shield. They dominated the battle until the XIV century. Horse few protected until the XV.
    Some sources say that the France has the bigger population.
    Professional troups in 1445 : Compagnies d'ordonnances.

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    esaciar's Avatar ♣ Northumbrian Viking ♣
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    I have a plethora of information as regards to the feudal system within France during this time period - more especially the Cathars (Albigensians) of the Toulouse/Languedoc region in the south.

    By the time your mod starts, this particular group of heretical Christians were being harassed in small, almost nomadic groups by the Catholic factions of central France.

    Historically, it wouldn't be remiss to have them as a very lowly, yet immensely dangerous independent faction of their own right within the south of France during your opening turns. Their strongholds didn't really fall until maybe 1300 and even then they had underground groups in Genoa, Milan, Toulouse, Zaragoza and Montpellier.

    Just an idea, but I'm very much prepared to share if you ever need it?

    Cheers.



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    esaciar's Avatar ♣ Northumbrian Viking ♣
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Louis IX (1226-70) is also going to be of particular interest. He was adamant of eradicating the feudal system in France, hemming in the nobles by outlawing trial by combat and making restrictive rules that took the "fun" out of feudal warfare.

    Nobles could not slaughter peasants or burn their crops. They had to give enemies notice of impending attacks and had to grant truces when asked to do so. Royal officials scoured the land to enforce these rules. Bit by bit, peace and order were replacing feudal anarchy in France, which by 1300 was the most powerful and respected state in Western Europe.

    I'm not sure that level of regional control could be scripted - in fact, I very much doubt it could be - but, again, if you need any info please do not hesitate to ask.

    It would be an honour to be involved in this project.



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    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails france01.jpg  

    HOUSE OF HADER

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by esaciar View Post
    Louis IX (1226-70) is also going to be of particular interest. He was adamant of eradicating the feudal system in France, hemming in the nobles by outlawing trial by combat and making restrictive rules that took the "fun" out of feudal warfare.

    Nobles could not slaughter peasants or burn their crops. They had to give enemies notice of impending attacks and had to grant truces when asked to do so. Royal officials scoured the land to enforce these rules. Bit by bit, peace and order were replacing feudal anarchy in France, which by 1300 was the most powerful and respected state in Western Europe.

    I'm not sure that level of regional control could be scripted - in fact, I very much doubt it could be - but, again, if you need any info please do not hesitate to ask.

    It would be an honour to be involved in this project.
    Interesting really, again it confirms once again that French nobles weren't really loyal to the crown hence the fact the amount of summoned French knights were quite low. Not only that, they were also quite arrogant and undisciplined, the obvious example is at Agincourt (no need to say more ) but from what I read, it took at least two major military reforms to put France onto the pedestal of the most powerful kingdoms in Europe in the 15th-16th century such as one example of the reform with the Franc Archers.

    May I ask you to make a sort of comparison between France, England and Burgundy in term of military organization between the 13th to the 15th century? England was quite a centralized Feudal system, Burgundy was one of the first kingdom to adopt national non feudal armies and France well the shining example of the feudal system with his goods and flaws.

    @Deathshade: Yep, quite similar ot England in terms of equipment for knights but the discipline and loyalty was quite different. Wanna give it a try for a unit roster?

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    esaciar's Avatar ♣ Northumbrian Viking ♣
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    May I ask you to make a sort of comparison between France, England and Burgundy in term of military organization between the 13th to the 15th century? England was quite a centralized Feudal system, Burgundy was one of the first kingdom to adopt national non feudal armies and France well the shining example of the feudal system with his goods and flaws.
    My pleasure. How would you like this presenting and when would you need it by?



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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by esaciar View Post
    My pleasure. How would you like this presenting and when would you need it by?
    You can present it in this thread and there's no rush really, when you will have free time and have nothing to do, you can give it a shot. For English names traduction, no worries, i can handle it however if there's unique names for soldiers, please let us know.

    One unit France used was Les Enfants Perdus ; Probably in the 14-15th century, those guys were acting as Doppelsoldner, first ot charge the enemy but paid twice due to the very hardcore work.

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    esaciar's Avatar ♣ Northumbrian Viking ♣
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Excellent. Give me two or three nights and I'll get back to you.



  10. #10
    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Mounted(but shooting dismounted) french elite archer, 1450

    and retinued crossbowmen , slighlty earlier


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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Rus-Bey View Post
    Mounted(but shooting dismounted) french elite archer, 1450

    and retinued crossbowmen , slighlty earlier
    This picture is a great reference, pretty sure you've used it for your own creations.

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Polycarpe View Post
    This picture is a great reference, pretty sure you've used it for your own creations.
    Coustillers, perhaps you have heard about it? Weren't they French light cavalrymen or a very late unit?

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    yes I like them, the national Museum of Armies have get ride its ugly stuff. I should visit this place again...

    About Coustilliers, the name means by extension all the contingents appointed to finish the prisonners/receding enemies.
    In some texts, the light cavalry is named like that, but also the shooters.
    Its needed to relativise the "light cavalry", they were sergeants and squires. With barbuta, brigantines, and plate for legs/arms, a 1.80m lance, swords, no shields.

    I'd also this discussion about the "Coustilliers" with Mark, I would not advice to name an unit like that.
    If you prefere, "Coustillier" is a sobriquet, given by the nobles to their mercenaries. A quite pejorative word.
    Like to say "piétaille", "les gueux", "de bien vilains marauds"...etc


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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by Rus-Bey View Post
    yes I like them, the national Museum of Armies have get ride its ugly stuff. I should visit this place again...

    About Coustilliers, the name means by extension all the contingents appointed to finish the prisonners/receding enemies.
    In some texts, the light cavalry is named like that, but also the shooters.
    Its needed to relativise the "light cavalry", they were sergeants and squires. With barbuta, brigantines, and plate for legs/arms, a 1.80m lance, swords, no shields.

    I'd also this discussion about the "Coustilliers" with Mark, I would not advice to name an unit like that.
    If you prefere, "Coustillier" is a sobriquet, given by the nobles to their mercenaries. A quite pejorative word.
    Like to say "piétaille", "les gueux", "de bien vilains marauds"...etc
    Thanks to clarify this, in any case, we will find proper and better names for them. I will wait a bit before to give it a shot to the roster, need to take a look into my books first as well waiting for esaciar suggestion.

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Map of 1180, can be used for name of city and fiefs, , don't look the suzerainties, as the large mod start after the continental seizure.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Some cities were in fact the lord's residence in the province, or a great vassal of the King. Looking near Burgundy, the name of "Donzy", its the fort hosting the "Baronnie de Donzy", several thousand of hectares as "manse"(personal rural holding of a lord), hundred of mounted sergeants ready to serve!

    Near Bordeaux, the captal of Buch(first vassal of the English King in coastal Gascogne) have its residence localised: La Teste-de-Buch. Teste and Captal means Head in english


    legend:
    V:Viscounty(Vicomté)
    C:County(Comté)
    M: Margraviate_Marquisate(Marche in french, former military-oriented counties)
    Duchy(Duché)
    R: Kingdom(Royaume)
    E:Bishopry(évêché)
    A:Archbishopry(archevêché)
    Monastères...


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  16. #16
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    As usual, your help is well appreciated. Got a question for ya

    Both of us are French but for sure the terms used today are not the same back in time, the common example of Roi (King, modern) compared to Roy (King, Old French). SO here's a list of terms used for certain units, just want to see I'm not too far away using the Old French as main language.

    Chevaliers (Knights)
    Sergents d'Arme (Sergeants/Men-at-Arms)
    Archiers/Archers (Archers)
    Hommes d'Arme/Infanterie (Swordsmen/Infantry)
    Miliciens (Militia)
    Arbalétriers (Crossbowmen)
    Levée/Paysants d'arrière-Ban (Rural Levies)

    For the bodyguards, I'm still searching for a proper name, Escortes or Garde Royale or something else. What do you think?

  17. #17
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Dομέστικοc
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    FRENCH KNIGHTS
    French knights





    Interesting suit of horse




    French knight in battle of crecy



    This knight is not mainly french but the whole consept is right!
    You can make this french knight as him.


    More knights

    Remember that no matter what you feel about English ,French knights were the best in their era.
    Watch the TGC's features revealing videos here.
    There are times in which a nation must, if it wants to stay great, be capable to fight .Even with no hope of victory. Only because it has the "duty" to fight!.

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    FRENCH KNIGHTS
    French knights





    Interesting suit of horse




    French knight in battle of crecy



    This knight is not mainly french but the whole consept is right!
    You can make this french knight as him.


    More knights

    Remember that no matter what you feel about English ,French knights were the best in their era.
    Thank you Anthonius, those pictures will helps us once again!
    For sure France would have the finest, la crème de la crème of the knights inEurope but even with all the stereotypes, French knights were arrogant and impetuous and unlikely unloyal to the crown unless the kingd gave them advantageous tributes. Most French nobles would fight only for their interest and underestimate their opponent, some kind of vanity feeling perhaps, some obvious examples can be clearly seen in the Battle of Agincourt or Crecis, after those dramatic defeats for France, the king impose a more centralist system and make the nobles more loyal to the king, leading France to be one of the most powerful armies in Western Europe.

  19. #19
    knight_12's Avatar Shisai
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    Hi. This is my small collection of pictures of french knights and some historical banners of french nobles and kings in the Hundred years war. I hope they will be of use.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  20. #20
    Deathshade's Avatar Discens
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of France

    I can make a mistake but I think it is that :

    Chevaliers (Knights) --> Chevalier (1130-40), Miles (X and XI century)
    Sergents d'Arme (Sergeants/Men-at-Arms) --> serjant
    Archiers/Archers (Archers) --> Archier (1174)
    Hommes d'Arme/Infanterie (Swordsmen/Infantry) --> enffanterie
    Miliciens (Militia)
    Arbalétriers (Crossbowmen) --> Arbalestrier
    Levée/Paysants d'arrière-Ban (Rural Levies) --> Païsan

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