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Thread: Language of the Carthaginians

  1. #1
    beezneez's Avatar Civis
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    Default Language of the Carthaginians

    i took a tour through the home of Seward, former secratary of state to lincoln. the guide pointed out a marble block that he said had come from the actual city of carthage. it was looted by roman soldiers and found it's way into sewards' home. it was an emblem of a horse w/ what looked like a palm tree behind the horse. on inscription around the emblem read, "Delenda Est. Carthago".

    now, this really got me interested. i believe that is latin. i did not know the carthaginian's spoke latin. from what i've read, they were possibly descended from the phonecians or greek like peoples. shouldn't they have a greek like language? it's just so surprising to me because i thought only the romans spoke latin.

    if carthage, they're arch enemy, spoke the same language, wouldn't that mean those two states could have been very much alike? the history i read shows theses two states as very different. was the inscription added later by romans?anyway, what language did the carthaginians speak?

    btw, that marble emblem had been incorporated into a beautiful table stand. it did look very clean to be so old. seward also had an etruscan artifact (bust of a head) and a greek/roman water or oil vessal among many other things.
    "And so the population was gradually led into the demoralizing temptations of arcades, baths, and sumptuous banquets. The unsuspecting Britons spoke of such novelties as 'civilization', when in fact they were only a feature of their enslavement."
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  2. #2
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Carthaginians spoke Phoenician, a language close to Hebrew.

    Also, "Delunda Est. Carthago" means "Carthage must be destroyed" something I highly doubt a Carthaginian would write.
    Last edited by Farnan; May 20, 2006 at 09:45 PM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    If it was in the Carthaginian language, you most likely wouldn't be posting in the Roman characters (I think this is the correct reason why it's called the Roman characters). Carthage was a offspring of the Phoenicians, the modern day Lebanese and Syrians, so it would have most likely been in Arabic. Also might be the case if it was north African writing I believe.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    http://www.bio.vu.nl/home/vwielink/W...culoPunic.html

    Here is a link to some information of Carthaginian coins. If you examine enlarged photos you can see that the Punic Script bears little resemblance to Latin/Roman characters. Whoever made the inscription was not totally off base however, by using a horse and palm they did hit upon some rather common Punic motifs – so I would suggest a moderately well informed attempt at forgery?
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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    I think it might have been a Roman soldier or politician writing it on the stone when he displayed it at his home.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    "delenda est Carthago" is along the lines of "Carthage has been destroyed"; so while it may have come from the city of Carthage that would be after the third war, when Carthage was taken apart almost stone from stone and salted. So it'd be Roman from the time of the third Punic War's end. maybe an inscription added to a pre-existing monument as Carthage was destroyed?

    The Carthaginians themselves spoke and wrote in Punic which did not even use a latin/greek script.

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    Bwaho's Avatar Puppeteer
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    umm...carthaginians did not speak latin. It must have been a roman who added the text "delenda est carthago".

    carthaginians might have been jews? they spoke something hebrew like I think.

  8. #8
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Hebrew and Punic were very close and used the same alphabet.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  9. #9

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    "Delenda est Cart(h)ago" is latin, and as Farnan said, means "Carthage is to be destroyed". It was frequently used by prominent politicians, namely Marcus Cato, who ended every speech he made with the phrase.

    And, the language of the Carthaginians was Punic, a mutation combining both Phoenician and African languages.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    The Carthigian language was Punic, to use the Latin word for the language. It should not be confused with the language spoken by the Phoenicians in cities such as Tyre or Sidon. Punic persisted as a spoken language long after the Third Punic War, notably spoken by St. Augustine of Hippo in the 5th century AD.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    But Carthage, being originally a Tyrean (if that is the correct adjectival form ) colony, would have it's origins in the semitic language of Tyre and the coast of the Levant. I don't know how much the berber dialects would have affected the language. Most likely, a vernacular form of Punic, with a lot more loan words from berber, would have performed the L function in the society with a "purer" form of Punic, closer to the original semitic version, as a literary prestige form. Although that is just speculation on my part.
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Quote Originally Posted by KingOfTheIsles
    But Carthage, being originally a Tyrean (if that is the correct adjectival form ) colony, would have it's origins in the semitic language of Tyre and the coast of the Levant. I don't know how much the berber dialects would have affected the language. Most likely, a vernacular form of Punic, with a lot more loan words from berber, would have performed the L function in the society with a "purer" form of Punic, closer to the original semitic version, as a literary prestige form. Although that is just speculation on my part.
    As a Englishman, do I speak the same language as Englishmen hundreds of years ago? Similiarly the Carthaginians did not speak the same language as the original colonists centuries earlier.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    As a Englishman, do I speak the same language as Englishmen hundreds of years ago? Similiarly the Carthaginians did not speak the same language as the original colonists centuries earlier.
    The Greeks did spoke Greek more than a century after the last serious contacts with the Hellenistic States or Greece. They managed to keep their language pure because they didn't allow locals to become one of them: they sticked to their language and traditions.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    This attachment should answer most of the questions posited here. I should go ahead and debunk the myth that Punic is mainly derived or related to Hebrew. The meanings of Phoenician characters are understood by speakers of Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic and Syriac.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron
    The Greeks did spoke Greek more than a century after the last serious contacts with the Hellenistic States or Greece. They managed to keep their language pure because they didn't allow locals to become one of them: they sticked to their language and traditions.
    The Greek city states did not as a rule look over trading empires stretching from Britain to the eastern Meditterean. Poor example. Fact of the matter is that the Carthiginians did not speak the same language as the the phoenician cities.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Baron
    The Greeks did spoke Greek more than a century after the last serious contacts with the Hellenistic States or Greece. They managed to keep their language pure because they didn't allow locals to become one of them: they sticked to their language and traditions.
    Except they spoke dialects of Greek not "original" Greek; if you compare Homeric Greek to say the Greek of Plato, there are marked differences. The lagnauge evolved even in the city states.

  17. #17
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    They probably spoke a dialect of Phoencian
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    TWC would be better if some people thought themselves lowly enough to actually bother reading the posts made by other people.

  19. #19
    Last Roman's Avatar ron :wub:in swanson
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    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54
    TWC would be better if some people thought themselves lowly enough to actually bother reading the posts made by other people.

    you mean me? I was just giving my opinion on the matter
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Language of the Carthaginians

    Quote Originally Posted by Last Roman
    you mean me? I was just giving my opinion on the matter
    No you're not, you're venturing a vague stab in the dark after many people have already stated the correct answer.

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