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Thread: Alliance Balancing

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    Default Alliance Balancing

    ATTN:same thread is in the Political Mudpit, in case the average man has somethin to say. I just didn't want to miss my upper echelon audience, in case they don't visit Political Mudpit. Cheers.

    Hello my fellow TWCers. I know that with my contribution I haven't been a model member of this forum in the past few months, but I had some other major responsibilities. These took time away from me being able to engage in these sometimes intenselly heated discussions. One such project which I have been working on is "Alliance Balancing: A Case Study on Slovakia and Czech Republic." I plan on getting published, but this may take a while. So this is really a work in progress, or a stepping stone for me into more research in the field of inter-state behavior. I hope you enjoy the fruits of my independent research. Comments are welcome.

    Alliance Balancing: A Case Study on Czech Republic and Slovakia

    On March 20, 2003, after months of futile diplomatic embroilment, the US-led coalition attacked Iraq. Under a guise of preemptive defense against Iraq’s possession of Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD), President Bush resolved to invade this country. Despite mounting criticism, most vociferously represented by the Franco-German coalition, and various manifestations of public discontent, President Bush and his allies embarked on this unpopular detour of the mission to rid the world of terrorism. To make up for the lack of a mandate from the international community (i.e., UN General Assembly and Security Council), he had assembled a coalition that would outnumber, at least in terms of its participating members, the previous coalition sent into Iraq. It would be dubbed “the coalition of the willing” or instead, “the coalition of bribed,” depending on one’s point of view.

    When Colin Powel listed the members of the “coalition of the willing,” on March 18, 2003, two days before the military strike ensued, approximately half (14 out of 30) comprised countries from the former Soviet bloc. Thus, it is a historic moment not only for US, but Central and Eastern Europe (CEE) as well. Those CEE countries conferred an immense amount of legitimacy on the US-led war against Iraq. As difficult as it was for President Bush to justify his initiative to the international community, and more importantly to his constituency, without his CEE allies the task would have been much more difficult. Stripped of these fourteen countries, skeptics and critics could more easily make the argument that dismissed US actions as unilateral, thereby distorting its image of a benevolent hegemon.

    Of those fourteen countries, Czech Republic and Slovakia stand out as a great source for study in the field of “most similar system” research design. They share a multitude of similarities going back to the ancient “Czecho-Slovak” aggregation within the Great Moravian Empire. In the last century both countries have found a common cause in a united state, but for various cultural and political reasons this union ended in a “velvet divorce.” Ever since, Slovakia has been the one trying to catch up with its “big brother” in realms of political and economic development.

    The purpose of this project is to study the events leading up to the decisions of Czech Republic and Slovakia to support US military efforts in the War on Iraq. This will be a comparative study, which will try to identify relevant similarities and differences between the decision-making processes in the two countries. It is also intended to use these similar cases to test some existing theories on alliance formation.

    The two countries’ decisions to support the US-led invasion of Iraq are surprising, considering that public opinion in the Czech Republic and Slovakia opposed the war. Moreover, both of these countries were waiting to be accepted as EU members at the time. The fact that France and Germany, the key players within EU, were highly critical of the war put tremendous pressure on CEE countries to deny any support to the US.

    At the same time, there were some crucial differences between Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Slovakia was led by a distinctly center-right coalition, which have a tendency to support the US more, while Czech Republic was led by a three-party coalition with representation from both ends of the political spectrum. At a time when Slovakia was only waiting to be accepted into NATO, Czech Republic was already its member. This relieved much of the pressure from Czech Republic that burdened Slovak elites when deciding between the US and Franco-German position.

    What cost/benefit calculations or cultural factors can help us understand the two countries’ decisions? Where the aforementioned differences enough to cause the different response of the two countries? This research will endeavor to answer this question.

    The answers are relevant both for practical and theoretical reasons. The decision-making processes in the two countries can offer us several underlying arguments regarding the decisions of virtually all CEE countries to support the US. This is important because, of the coalition, more than half comprise countries of the former Soviet sphere of influence. The number of countries backing the US was significant. The more “multilateral” the coalition was perceived to be, the more legitimate it was considered by the international community as well as by the American public.

    Can the US count on the assistance of CEE countries in the future? Or were the factors in 2003 unique and not likely to repeat? The international relations (IR) theories have long occupied themselves with the question of “balancing,” asking how countries decide between joining two powerful camps. The decisions of CEE countries, balancing between the US, on the one hand, and France and Germany, on the other, are relevant in understanding the application of these theories.

    Popular Support

    Most of us probably still remember the vivid images of millions of protesters filling the squares and plazas of their capitals around the world weeks before and during the War in Iraq to let their governments and US leaders know how they felt about the expected war. Western European and US cities, alike, experienced a tidal wave of protests involving massive amount of people. This did not happen on the same magnitude in Prague and Bratislava, which went through negligible, if any, civil unrest. The biggest protest in Bratislava occurred on March 27, during the period of actual combat. In total, around 300 participants took part in these protests, which were organized by the Slovak Communist party (KSS) . On March 16, about 1000 people stood in Prague’s Old Town Square and demonstrated against the possible attack on Iraq. Those two demonstrations were the biggest to occur in the two countries. If this low turnout would have been any indication of the public level of discontent, it would be reasonable to believe that the political elites had close to a free reign on the issue and enough leverage to implement more pro-US policies. This was not the case, however, as many polls showed the public in both countries strongly opposed the US acting unilaterally and their governments directly supporting this with a military aid. So what could have prompted this low response?

    Czech News Agency (CTK) offers some clues when they conducted interviews with leading psychologists and public opinion experts. Lenka Sulova, the head of the Social Psychology Department at the Charles University in Prague, said, “The people in the Czech Republic think in general that they have a limited chance of affecting public affairs." Perception of low amount of political efficacy is part of the heritage that lingers on from the communist era, in which political participation was limited to the politburo. Therefore, Czech Republic lacks a tradition of civic participation and responsibility that comes in part with the political socialization in democratic establishments. "There are really few affairs due to which we, Czechs, would go out in the streets and it rarely concerns something happening outside the Czech Republic," said Jan Herzmann, the director of polling agency TNS Factum. Same arguments can be used on Slovakia, which shares in this heritage. As it will be discussed further on, the positions adopted by these two countries were fairly mild with indeterminate rhetoric, most especially in the Czech Republic. This also played a factor in the low participation in demonstrations. Because the governments of the two countries have held back from unconditionally supporting the US, in form of military assistance, the general public did not think itself personally affected. This is connected to the previous point of lack of concern for foreign affairs.

    In the mid September 2002, Polis Slovakia agency conducted a poll asking the public of its opinion about the possible war on Iraq. Only 11.3% supported the US and British initiative, while 70% were against it. Interestingly enough, 44.9% supported the idea that at least political support be offered by their government, but only 6.7% stressed that military help should also be accorded. Findings of the TNS Factum agency in the Czech Republic were similar to those in Slovakia, although somewhat different questions and opinions were being asked. Even though only 48% completely rejected a possible attack, if we add the 33% who thought that UN mandate was necessary, the total number of respondents who rejected the US approach was 81%. Furthermore, 31% allowed the use of Czech military as an auxiliary force, while only 13% could imagine sending them into the direct combat.

    Correlated to the shrinking support for the US anti-terrorist initiative was the support for the NATO accession in Slovakia. The result of the survey conducted by the Focus agency was that a sizeable drop in support from 60.2% in April 2002 was registered, so that by October 2002, it dwindled around 52.1%. The popularity has inevitably decreased, as the NATO rhetoric became more tied up with US alliance and backing against Iraq. "Behind the drop in support for our entry is the problem of the United States' possible attack on Iraq," stated Marian Slosiarik from the Focus agency attempting to interpreted the decline. The misconception that US steers NATO around at its whim and joining this organization means becoming an unconditional US ally is still widely held and accepted. The Government spent very little amount of resources to promote Slovak accession into NATO among its citizens. This is because, unlike in the EU, referendum is not required and lack of popular support for the accession does not immediately translate into its debacle. However, EU membership carries with itself a number of broadly acknowledged incentives by the general public, such as freedom of movement and pursuit of employment, which is something that NATO membership lacks. Nevertheless, Slovakia’s accession would not be harmed over the issue of low popular support.

    When in October the RCA Research institute conducted a poll in Czech Republic and Slovakia concerning the possible Iraq War, the findings confirmed the continuing trend that an overwhelming majority disagrees with US position. Only 30% of Czechs and 23% Slovaks were willing to support US intervention. The biggest percentage of support stemmed from the younger people, age 25-34, (39% in Czech Republic and 29% in Slovakia) and those with a higher education (32% in Czech Republic and 29% in Slovakia). The fact that the poll was conducted by a single agency increased the possibility of more uniform approach and conditions of the sampling, which makes for a much more accurate comparison between the opinions of the two countries. Despite that these figures and those from the previous month were collected by different companies with different questions being asked, the general notion that the public support for the war is fairly small remains consistent.

    A survey administered in January by STEM agency in the Czech Republic found that 39% of respondents were willing to support Czech participation in military action in Iraq. This figure is somewhat misleading, because three fourths considered a UN mandate important and an overwhelming majority of the 39% fall within those three fourths. Similar survey in Slovakia, which came out in February, was organized by Polis Slovakia agency. Of the 550 participants, 11.6% have agreed to sending troops to Iraq, 20.4% have qualified Slovak participation with a UN mandate, and 60.3% gave a definite ‘no’ (the rest could not decide). While there seems to be a big difference between Czech and Slovak supporters, let’s not forget that to truly compare them we have to combine the two percentages for Slovaks supporting war with or without any qualifications (11.6% and 20.4%), which comes up to 32%.

    Because these polls ask military and not political support, certain problems arise when comparing them to the poll conducted in October, which asked only political support. The ones in September, which asked both, show only slight and inconsistent change. In the Czech Republic the combined military support decreased from 44% (33% for Czech soldiers as auxiliaries and 13% for Czechs in direct combat) to 39%. This change is inversely related to Slovakia’s where the support for direct military aid increased from 6.7% to 11.6%. Whether this is caused by the different approach taken by the polling companies or a real shift in opinion, or most likely both, the general trend of popular rejection to the US initiative surrounding Iraq continued.

    During the weeks that precluded the military conflict, this trend eventually transformed popular opinion into public manifestations, however small in number of their participants. With such pressure from the electorate, political elites would have to try to maneuver between them and their own convictions so they could stave off a backlash in the election seasons ahead. The result was that although both governments sent a small number of troops to Kuwait and eventually to Iraq, they did not take part of an actual combat. This way they could satisfy US appeals, without upsetting too much the people who have elected them into their office.

    Rhetoric

    When on January 22, 2003, Rumsfeld divided the European continent into “old” and “new,” the “new” being the pro-US camp ready to join EU, it sent shock waves through the European community. To western leaders campaigning against US efforts to invade Iraq, Rumsfeld’s message underlined what has been feared for some time already. It was like a déjà vu to have another “outside power” cleave off a chunk of Europe for itself. His statement implied something that seemed inevitable, polarization of Europe closer to the US. Thus, Rumsfeld’s simple dichotomy has been adopted as a reliable device to explain the relationship among the European states today. The focus was so much concentrated on the strife between the “Old Europe” and US that the opinions and actions of “New Europe” lost importance or even relevance. In truth, Rumsfeld’s words caught many CEE leaders in disagreement. Even the staunchest US supporter, Poland took it as an offense. On April 3, Czech President, Vaclav Klaus, visited his Polish counterpart, Aleksander Kwasniewski, who said, refereeing to Rumsfeld’s comments, "It is a false debate, especially when you talk about the Czech Republic and Poland. We are a part of the very old Europe." He further commented: "We are against exploiting countries such as the Czech Republic or Poland, by trying to use us when they tell us to choose between Europe and the United States."

    SUPPORT FOR THE WAR

    The rhetoric in Slovakia surrounding the possibility of an attack on Iraq started to shape itself after September 2002. This was the time of Parliamentary elections and it was clear that politicians were reluctant to even touch this sensitive subject. Judging from the polls shown above, it would have had a serious recourse on many of the “closeted” US supporters. Also, it was still soon to come up with any definitive position as battle lines between pro and anti-war camps were only beginning to be drawn. Therefore, Slovak Foreign Minister, Eduard Kukan of the Christian Democratic Union (SDKU), was not merely deflecting journalistic inquisition when he said that, “Slovakia will wait with taking stand on prepared US strikes against Iraq until it gets all the evidence.” However, after the elections were over with similar faces in the government and the immediate burden from pursuing seats in the parliament lifted, Kukan showed a different tone. He vaguely stated: “Slovakia is determined to always act as an ally of the USA.”

    Czech Republic experienced elections few months earlier in June, so there was more discussion during this time. Czech Foreign Minister, Cyril Svoboda, already at this early stage allowed for the possibility for US to circumvent UN restrictions and still retain its legitimacy and his adherence. Svoboda said: “The important thing is that whatever happens, it has the backing of the UN Security Council, of the alliance [NATO] or, possibly, of a coalition.” Vaclav Havel, the Czech President at that time, who was a known supporter of US and liberated in the fact that he could not run for another reelection, was reported to say: "It would not be good at all if this were to be the USA's solo action. If the UN Security Council fails to provide a solution issuing an ultimatum asking Iraq to meet its demands, the operation should be carried out by a broader international coalition of which NATO should not be a negligible part."

    Slovakia, too, had its strong pro-US polarizer in the person of its Prime Minister Mikulas Dzurinda of the Christian Democratic Union (SDKU). He had much more in common with the Czech President than his own counterpart, Vladimir Spidla of the Social Democrats (CSSD), who regarded “the UN mandate as exceptionally important." Dzurinda, who said, “If our basic values are clear and if it is clear to us who is our ally we should not be cowards and we should not be evasive,” was opposite in temper, if not completely in opinion, to Spidla when it came to Iraq.

    Dzurinda’s remarks after the first post-election cabinet meeting, in which he retained his seat, showed a definite commitment towards alliance with US and a desire for Slovakia to become a member of EU and NATO. "Back at the 1999 NATO summit, I said that Slovakia would be a NATO ally in reality even if we were not formally signatories to the treaty, a 'de facto' member of NATO even if we were not a member 'de jure’” said PM Dzurinda. Because Slovakia, unlike Czech Republic, was not a member of NATO at that time, the message of acting like one resonated strongly within the rhetoric of the right-wing elites who ruled the country. Even those who would not eventually support the war, like the Christian Democrats (KDH), thought it necessary to join NATO.

    This begs the question: why would European countries want to join the alliance in this day and age? The more obvious answer is prestige. To become a member of this organization means becoming a part of the most powerful alliance on this planet. There are also real and perceived security advantages that draw these post-communist countries into NATO. While external security threats have all but vanished on the European continent, joining NATO closes that possibility definitely. NATO also extends an umbrella of internal stability by requiring democratization as an important criterion for its membership. The aforementioned attributes are largely attached to the US leadership within the organization. To these small countries it is essential that US retains this role, because “U.S. is the natural leader of the democratic world, the only country capable of global responsibility,” as was noted by PM Dzurinda. Jeff Gedmin, a European security expert who is director of the Aspen Institute in Berlin, sums it up nicely for us: "One of the important features of the NATO enlargement is that the eastern European countries who were under Soviet domination really want to keep the U.S. involved in Europe […] They do not want to entrust their safety to a loose European security system run by France; they want to join a strong NATO that has the American security guarantee -- and that is going to be a big influence on the future politics of NATO."
    With the importance of NATO clearly understood by the ruling elite, joining the organization became a matter of persuading its “gatekeeper,” the United States. All member nations pass a vote in their parliament about admitting new members into NATO, but because the US legislation is so removed from the executive, which deals with these countries, convincing the US Senate is extra challenging. Therefore, acceding countries must not only keep an eye out for European parliaments, which tend to be easier to convince, but they have to vie for the acceptance in the US Senate. Latching on to the crisis in Iraq as means to prove their loyalty was an important part of the strategy that would ensure the prospect countries their membership. Slovak President Rudolf Schuster kept a good appearance of his country when he came out publicly in support of the US on the very first day of the war.

    PUBLIC MANIFETOES

    Before the actual combat started, two public declarations in support of the US were signed, the letter of eight (L-8) and the Vilnius ten (V10) declarations. L-8 carried more political weight, because it was supported by five EU members (Denmark, Italy, Portugal, Spain, and UK) and three CEE countries that have already been accepted into NATO (Czech Republic, Hungary, and Poland). The V10 was formed by EU and NATO hopefuls (Albania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Romania, Slovakia, and Slovenia). Because of this, V10 countries were deprived of two major venues where they could express or exert their views, but they, nevertheless, possessed a great potential to polarize the two organizations closer to the US in the future. This fear was manifested in the reaction of the anti-US camp, where both declarations managed to generate a strong reaction. It resulted in a backlash of colorful rhetoric directed at them mostly from the French side via President Chirac, who called them “childish and reckless,” going as far as threatening their chances of accession into EU. Interestingly enough, he managed to exclude from his criticism signatories who were already EU members, as reflected in the opinion of Slovak Foreign Minister Eduard Kukan who said, "I do not comprehend why Mr. Chirac is not criticizing Italy, Spain or Portugal. After all, they said exactly the same... I do not like it, and I do not think this way of marking us out is justified."

    From this we can infer that not only was the CEE support crucial for US, but it has become a thorn in the side of “Old Europe.” Some scholars have argued that France has for a long time tried to build up Europe into a power that would countervail US hegemony. Others argue still that France is more or less neutral and that there is “no evidence of French effort to either balance or buck-pass when it comes to American preponderance.” If France is indeed trying to unite Europe to increase its bargaining power with the US, it saw its chances come to a halt as these manifestoes drew a sharp rift between the two camps. In a moment of disappointment, the rhetoric turned inflammatory. Fueled by the confident US acknowledgement of its allies, this perception was accepted in the West by both, the “Old Europe” and the US camp. However, the story was quite different back in the CEE region.
    One noteworthy event for formation of a CEE position on Iraq, which precluded the signing of two pro-US declarations, L-8 and V10, was the Right Wing Conference in Prague, partly organized by the US International Republican Institute. What came out of this conference was a statement in which one of the points pledged support to President Bush in his attempt to wage war on Iraq. Vaclav Klaus, head of the Civic Democratic Party (ODS) party which helped to organize this conference, signed on. Ultimately, this declaration had a very limited amount of influence precisely because virtually all of the signatories (Bulgaria, Croatia, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, Romania and Latvia) played a limited role as opposition in their respective countries. Klaus’ acceptance to sign on seems strange in hindsight, since he would become very opposed to US actions as the Czech President.

    The real demonstration of pro-US support arrived in the form of the aforementioned L-8 and V10 declaration, both released within a span of just few days in late January and early February. This came as a mountain of moral support for US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, who at the time was presenting a pro-US case at the UN. This V10 declaration was not the first of its kind. The V10 countries have proved their alliance to the US in November during the NATO Summit. They pledged support to US initiative to disarm Iraq and if it continued to breach UN Security Council’s resolutions, they would join in an ‘ad hoc’ coalition. When the V10 presented a declaration at the NATO Summit in Prague, it was hailed as a manifestation of an unconditional US support against Iraq. Seven of those countries were invited to join NATO at that summit (all except Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia). Within the close circle of diplomats, insulated from the public opinion in their countries, strong language was the norm. Even Slovak Foreign Minister, Eduard Kukan, admitted that, “This is a very strong declaration.”
    There is no question that the group environment had a major role in stamping out dissent. Slovak foreign policy analyst Ivo Samson summarizes it well: "All the candidate countries are pro-American. Slovakia has only followed suit." However strong the rhetoric was at the summit and removed from the reality of public opinion, it was interpreted very differently at home. The foreign ministry spokesman denied that the document carried any legal obligation. "The Foreign Ministry thus wants to stress this is not a confidential document as has been reported by some media," the spokesman added.

    The situation with L-8 was similar in respect to the group environment and domestic interpretation. Furthermore, there was more dissent among the Czech coalition government elites. As a signatory to L-8, Vaclav Havel, a chief of state, stood out from a crowd of Prime Ministers, who headed their respective governments. The reason for it was that Czech PM, Vladimir Spidla, refused to sign the declaration. The task was passed on to the obvious substitute. The United States needed a moral support for its cause, regardless of its legal validity, and it was able to extract this from a President with virtually no legislative or executive competencies in his last few days in the office. The reaction from the Government was not welcoming. They resented the fact that their foreign policy was being (mis)represented by someone outside the policymaking loop. Czech Foreign Ministry issued a statement which stressed that the official position is reflected “in the relevant governmental resolutions,” not in the personal conviction of Vaclav Havel. Vladimir Spidla held a similar point-of-view. He added: "The stance of foreign policy is determined by official decision making, not by newspapers and newspaper articles, even though they are signed by important people.”

    Those two examples do a great job of illustrating the different meanings that were attributed to the L-8 and V10 declarations by Czech Republic and Slovakia. The same can be applied to virtually all the CEE countries that took part. Had the “Old Europe” paid more attention to the internal matters of these countries, they would realize that their worries were largely unfounded and signatures on these manifestoes were devoid of an actual commitment to an alliance. Vaclav Havel was in a unique position. Because of his recognized authority in and outside the country and freedom from the pressure of reelection, he had more elbow room to act on his own conviction and add to the prestige of the US position. Other Slovak and Czech leaders, especially those who endorsed the US position on Iraq, were caught up between the internal (public opinion and their peers) and external (pro and anti-US camps) pressures before they could offer a position of their own. The result is a collection of signatures that is hardly worthy of the fanfare it got.

    DISAPROVAL OF THE WAR

    The only marginal sign of rebellion in the Slovak coalition government was the official position of the Christian Democratic Movement (KDH) endorsed by its chairman, Pavol Hrusovsky. He refused “war as an instrument to resolve” the problems regarding Iraq’s alleged possession of WMDs. While KDH did not support the War on Iraq, it allowed its members to vote according to their own conscience. This was not enough for PM Dzurinda who scolded the KDH leadership, by comparing them to the ultra-nationalist party (SNS). By passing conservative resolutions that recognized the importance of UN mandate, the Slovak government averted any bigger crisis and thereby presented a united position.

    While Slovak coalition Government had something to unite behind, in form of NATO membership, Czechs lacked this shared desire and interest, which could bring them closer together on Iraq. Small signs of difference amongst the coalition members were beginning to appear in November when Vladimir Spidla was gathering support for what he thought would be a UN approved attack on Iraq. Defense Minister Jaroslav Tvrdik, who was also of the Social Democrats (CSSD), indicated that UN mandate was not necessarily required for Czech Republic to play at least a role of non-combating auxiliaries. Christian Democrats (KDU-SCL) in Czech Republic, who were also in the coalition, were undecided on the issue. Their opinion ranged from Petr Pithart’s, a Senate chairman: “I am convinced that the operation [against Iraq] does not have to take place at all” to Cyril Svoboda’s, a Foreign Minister who believed that even the latest resolutions at the time could be interpreted to allow for an attack against Iraq.

    The most numerous party in the parliament, CSSD, was itself divided. Vladimir Spidla continued to emphasize the role of UN, while Jaroslav Tvrdik maintained his position: “I would probably say, though with much hesitation, yes [to engaging Czech troops in Iraq].” The situation turned critical after the war, in which Czechs decided not to participate. The CSSD conference came up with a resolution that condemned the war. It read: “The conference is convinced that the legitimate goal of the international community, that is disarmament of the regime of Saddam Hussein, could have been attained by peaceful means had not the warring states decided to ignore the UN.” Furthermore, UN should assume control over administering Iraq after the war. One of the draftees of the resolution was Jan Kavan, who presided over the UN General Assembly at the time. Deputy Libor Roucek issued a counter-resolution defending the position maintained by the Government. One member of the CSSD went so far to call the actions of US “a crime […] not in accordance with law.”

    Clearly, Czech Republic suffered deep divisions within its Government. Two important causes, one direct and internal and the other indirect and external, are at the root of this. Makeup of the government directly contributed to the disarray over Iraq. The coalition consisted of parties on both sides of the left-right spectrum, with center-left Social Democrats (CSSD) leading it. The center-right Christian Democrats (KDU-SCL) and right-wing Freedom Union completed the tapestry. In comparison, Slovakia was led by a decidedly center-right coalition, with Christian Democratic Union (SDKU) at its head. The intrinsic differences in party ideologies spilled into fundamental rifts between party positions on Iraq. CSSD went back and forth on the issue with Spidla as its moderator and KDU-SCL was undecided. Only the right-wing Freedom Union remained the stronghold of US support. Such is the difference in the composition of the two governing coalitions.

    The issue of NATO membership was an added incentive that pulled a fairly united Slovak coalition further together. Both countries were waiting to be admitted by the EU, but the concept of ‘acting like an EU member’ when it came to security issues, more specifically the Iraq War, was not present in the rhetoric of the ascending countries. That didn’t deter the French President, Jacques Chirac, from trying to make the candidate countries aware of such a concept. Europe’s division on the subject created enough space for Slovak and Czech elites to find allies even within the organization they were about to join. As much as NATO served to unite Slovak government on the issue of Iraq, EU failed to do the same for the Czech government. The lack of unity in EU on the issue surrounding Iraq was an indirect and external reason for the division inside the Czech coalition government. Had the EU been more united, Czech government would have been forced to align itself more accordingly. Opposing a more united Europe would carry negative repercussions for Czech and Slovak EU memberships.

    Deployment

    Perhaps some of us still remember key moments from the presidential debates of 2004. One of the memorable highlights was Kerry’s accusation that the alliance construed by President Bush was not a “grand coalition” by any means. Kerry further listed off the few countries which have participated in the actual combat. Poland was not included. Bush’s immediate reaction was: “Well, actually, he forgot Poland.” This statement has quickly become a favorite among political analysts and late night show hosts, alike. Poland was the only CEE country that participated in the Iraq War with its contingent of 54 parachute troopers. Because of lack of contribution on the part of most US allies many critics pointed at Bush’s failure in organizing a meaningful coalition that would unburden the task of American military. After Saddam Hussein was ousted and the combat phase had ended many CEE countries sent a number of military units to serve various humanitarian and non-combating tasks, such as removal of mines. Slovakia and Czech Republic were among them.

    Long before any battle plans were drawn out and arrangements for Czech and Slovak troops were made, speculations were circulating already as to what contribution could these two countries offer in case of a war. President Havel’s words on his visit in Washington back in September of 2002 give a very good estimate: "Nevertheless, in my view it is clear that our participation would most probably involve our anti-chemical and anti-bacteriological warfare unit.” Chief of Staff, Jiri Sedivy, debunked the speculation that Czech Republic was already committing itself to any operations in Iraq. He also clarified that the troops stationed in Kuwait at the time had nothing to do with Iraq. The 251 soldiers of the anti-chemical unit stationed in Doha operated under the premise of Operation Enduring Freedom, which was a more general anti-terrorist operation associated mainly with the war in Afghanistan. By late December, this unit was recalled back home where it was placed on an alert in case the decision is made to redeploy quickly.

    By January 8, PM Vladimir Spidla, in a radio interview, revealed the first US requests relating to the war in Iraq. Flights over Czech territory, transfer of military units on it, and deployment of anti-chemical units which could be used in an event of WMD attack by Iraq were the three requests. To the first two, PM Spidla added “that this request is really limited and relates to very short, interim periods.” At that time Slovakia had not been officially approached yet by the US. Perhaps the discrepancy in NATO membership made a difference on how US entreated its CEE allies. In any event, the coalition government continued to deny any involvement in future planning. "The government has not yet discussed the matter," said cabinet spokesman Martin Maruska. Even so, the Defense Minister, Ivan Simko admitted that certain preparations were already being made under his predecessor Jozef Stank. On January 10, the talks of a possible cooperation in the anti-chemical unit stationed in Kuwait were under way between Jaroslav Tvrdik and Ivan Simko, Defense Ministers for Czech Republic and Slovakia, respectively.

    Before the war started, all the help that Slovakia and Czech Republic amounted to was a joint anti-chemical unit consisting of 59 and 357 personnel respectively, for whom US covered the travel expenses. They could not join the operation in Iraq without the UN mandate and would be activated only in a case of Iraqi use of WMDs. "We are not members of Operation Iraqi Freedom," exclaimed PM Vladimir Spidla as battles raged in Iraq. Yet still, these countries figured on the list of American supporters of the war. As Spidla’s words were being uttered and CSSD conference came out against the war, Czech Republic was sending a military hospital to Iraq. Of course, all this was interpreted within the confines of relevant UN resolutions which called on all its members to help alleviate the suffering in the war-torn country.

    After the war, Czech Republic and Slovakia parted ways from their joint venture in Kuwait and each played a different role in post-war peacekeeping. From April to December 2003, Czech Field Hospital operated in Basra under the British leadership. Afterwards, the focus shifted to training Iraqi police. Around 100 men remain behind as a military police contingent fulfilling the aforementioned task. Slovakia participated under Polish leadership in Southern Iraq. It has sent a 100 men engineering unit in July responsible for clearing the land from mines, ammunitions, and other explosives. The mission remains active to this day.

    While it can be argued whether Slovakia and Czech Republic offered political support to US as it waged war in Iraq, it is more difficult when military contribution is concerned. Clearly, of the two, Slovak government was more outspoken when it came to helping US disarm Iraq. However, when we compare the numbers of soldiers deployed, Czech Republic leads in absolute terms. Their commitment never overstepped the bounds of UN mandate either, even though Czechs were more apt to point that out. Because of divided interests pulling at not only those two, but other CEE countries as well, these countries could not afford to demonstrate unrestrained dedication to the US. Under the pressure from domestic (public opinion) and external (most of EU) factors, even the rightwing elite of Slovakia had to balance between the two poles.

    Theoretical Explanation

    Because of its bias towards great powers, the literature on balance of power is very limited to give us a satisfactory explanation for the behaviors of small countries, such as Czech Republic and Slovakia. However, we can use the template already provided to try to find theoretical basis for their decisions to grant limited support to the US.

    Of the two obvious choices, balancing and bandwagoning, balancing is completely ruled out. While the actual act of balancing can be difficult to identify, its purpose rings clear to scholars studying this theory. Traditionally, balancing has been used to “prevent a rising power from assuming a hegemony.” It can also be used to countervail hegemony that is already in existence. Because of hegemon’s sheer power, balancing against it brings costly repercussions to the great powers that attempt to employ this strategy. However, the traditional concept of balancing (also labeled hard balancing), which relies on two simple indicators, military build up and alliance formation, to identify itself in progress, failed to account for the behavior of states after the collapse of Soviet Union. In this new era, “The empirical evidence of limited hard balancing in contemporary world politics attests powerfully to the need for broadening the concept of power balancing.” Soft balancing was developed to better describe the informal diplomatic arrangements made by many great powers since 1991 in an attempt to prevent the US from acting unilaterally. Franco-German cooperation against the US efforts to invade Iraq is a case in point. Thus far, such soft balancing has not been able to prevent the US from acting unilaterally, “but by depriving the US of the legitimacy of a Security Council resolution, they certainly made it more expensive.” Czech Republic and Slovakia, because they were closer to the US rather than France and Germany on Iraq, could hardly be classified as balancing.

    Up until this time, the actions of the CEE countries have been simply accepted as bandwagoning. Whether the focus was on the military conflict against Iraq, or diplomatic embroilment against France and Germany, the actions of Czech Republic and Slovakia, would fit nicely into the realist conception of bandwagoning. “Bandwagoning by small powers makes sense.” Because of their small size, they are not as desirable of an ally of great powers attempting to balance against a hegemon, and because of their vulnerability, the hegemon, being the stronger of the two, provides more security. Stephen Walt, who has done much to update the balance of power theories, gives us an insight into bandwagoning. According to him, “states sometimes bandwagon with a powerful state, especially if that state offers them security and economic advantages.” Despite all the incentives in place (security offered via NATO and economic advantages via contracts to rebuild Iraq) Czech Republic, Slovakia and rest of CEE countries, were cautious enough that they decided against giving US the support that it had sought. Neither CEE country participated in the War on Iraq in any significant matter, nor was the response of these countries uniformly in support of the US. The aforementioned remarks of Czech PM Spidla, who denied that Czech Republic was part of the “Operation Iraqi Freedom,” attest to this.

    But there is yet another choice, often overlooked because of its tight association to great power behavior before the World War II. “Appeasement refers to the granting of concessions to the great power threatening to gain ascendance over others in international system.” This definition given by Mark R. Brawley is a historical description of the actions undertaken by the UK and France, which appeased Hitler with some territorial accessions in order to prevent another Great War. He later postulates that the EU is generally “appeasing Washington by going along with actions its members do not wholeheartedly support.” These two statements combined together to give a clearer picture describing the actions of CEE countries. Although Czech Republic and Slovakia were not giving concessions to a “power threatening to gain ascendance,” they did give some concessions, by way of varying political support and nominal military support, to a power that served as a vehicle for security on the European continent. And although Czech Republic and Slovakia were not EU members at the time, they too showed lukewarm support in terms of military participations and, especially in the case of Czech Republic, in terms of political backing, much like most of the continent. In fact, their desire to become EU members served as an incentive to carefully balance between appeasing the two conflicting sides, and not to completely forsake France and Germany, two of the most powerful EU countries.

    Conclusion

    As convenient as it was to interpret the situation in CEE using terms, such as “New Europe” and “the coalition of the willing,” provided by President Bush’s cabinet, we must move away from this labeling to truly understand complexities that shaped the decision-making in this region. While those terms were adopted and acknowledged by both sides of the conflict, the reality was far from the extreme. To dismiss the actions of CEE countries as just another case of bandwagoning misses some fundamental truths about the severity of the situation. In reality, more modest measures were taken by CEE ruling elites, which resulted from their difficult position of having to appease the US and anti-US camp, public pressure, and their own convictions.

    The public opinion in Czech Republic and Slovakia was very opposed to the Iraq war. This left little leeway to the pro-American elites to implement their policies. However, in Slovakia, a substantial minority (over 40%) agreed that at least political support be offered. This could only bolster Dzurinda’s unrelenting rhetorical endorsement of US initiative against Iraq. While it is intangible, we should not underestimate the value of rhetorical support. Bush administration placed much emphasis on building a coalition fortified by a slew of confident proclamations as a substitute for a real military coalition since powerful countries, like France and Germany, which could have done much to relieve the burden placed on the American military, greatly disapproved of US actions.

    Can the US expect to continue to hold sway over CEE elites so that it may always tap into this reservoir of political reinforcement? With new members gained by the NATO, it seems that US has lost some of its direct and indirect leverage. Directly, US can no longer wave this “carrot” in front of full fledged members and the pool of prospect members is getting smaller. Indirectly, with V10, which served as a consultation body for future members of the NATO, losing its purpose, the US will have to address these members individually. Such environment is less conducive to conformity. Czech Republic is a prominent case of this. Its government had distanced itself from the kind of rhetorical support that has been given by Poland and most countries ascending into the NATO. Although the V10 could hardly be called an international organization, it did have a loose meeting structure in place and a narrow set of goals. The L-8 countries lacked the kind of cohesion exhibited by the V10. The US could not address them as a group making the decision to sign the declaration a purely individual. Its lukewarm support was, however, enough to President Bush that he considered Czech Republic an ally in the coalition and he was able to convince others of this as well.

    So, whose side did the CEE countries take? Such question becomes less relevant as the international community is becoming more interdependent and states substitute hard balancing for soft balancing. The more appropriate question would ask the level of commitment showed to both sides of the conflict. The Cold War dichotomy of clear-cut losers and winners on the plane of international system no longer applies. Now, there are more than two sides to join or positions to adapt for smaller countries. CEE states are no longer forced to bandwagon in conformity to the wishes of a single benefactor. They are able to demonstrate more uniqueness in their foreign policy, even though this is limited to the extent that they can appease the two balancing coalitions. Thus, countries of the former Soviet bloc are able to carve out a niche different from the two extremes on the opposing sides of the Atlantic without jeopardizing their relations with either of them.
    Again, comments are welcome!
    And sorry that I can't show you my sources in this format (and I don't knwo how to post in a MS Word format, so that you caoul check them out), but trust me that this is well researched. I have looked into couple of hundred articles from Western and Eastern Europe, as well as from US. I have also used couple of anthologies dealing with this region as well as aliance balancing. I still have to look more into the theoretical aspect of my research.


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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Bold the important parts... my eyes hurt >.<

    Wow, I actually read 80% of that (hope you aren't offended if I did skip over some) and I am very impressed. I'm considering printing it out (I tend to read long articles better in actual print). It certainly debunks alot of the simplistic black/white explanations that most people conceive when looking at the basics. And the results you express here, I believe, are quite transferable to other countries that poltically support the war dispite public disproval. I actually was working on an essay (doubt I'll every finish it completely in essay form) on the political climate in Korea and how it's own involvement in the war is based primarly on keeping relations with America on a positive side, but it's actual physical involvement being next to nil to keep public discourse under control.

    Either way, this was way better than I thought going in, and it actually flows fairly well. Keep the good writing and research up.

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    Who says the bit about preemptive defense was a guise, rather than being sincere? (Are you able to read George Bush's mind?) Which public was discontent with the plan, and among whom was it unpopular? (Certainly not the US at the time.)

    Okay, I realize that's completely ancillary to the point of your discussion, and I did only read the first few paragraphs, so I'm probably not being entirely helpful. But if your intended audience includes many conservatives, as TWC does, you probably annoyed a nontrivial percentage with that initial summary.

    *steps aside to let the intended audience read the essay*
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    I like very much the post. It is well structured and its conclusions about what motivated the Czech and Slovak decision-makers in the actions they took are supported by the evidence presented. I also liked a lot the analysis of the diferences between the "dynamics" of Czech Republic (a NATO member at the time) and Slovakia (an aspiring member).

    There are a few fascinating (for me) questions that are still unanswered at this time regarding the attitude of some the other countries towards the US invasion of Iraq:
    1) What was in it for the Spanish and Italian governments?
    2) What was in it for the Czech and Polish governments (already NATO members thus in no need to please the US)?
    3) What was in it for Japan and South Korea?
    4) Why were the French and the German governments so strongly against the invasion?

    Janosik007 offers some insight into the possible answer for the second question: the politicians in Poland and Czech Republic are pro-American because they are in many ways the "product" of the American actions against the Soviet Union. However that pro-American attitude is not enough to push for an important military commitment. Poland and the Czech Republic politicians' decisions are also interesting to compare after the invasion. The Czech committment remained negligible. However the Poles sent 2400 troops and are in charge of one out of the 4 sectors Iraq is divided in (the south-central sector). What would explain this diference?

    Before trying to answer it let's take a look at the size of the non-US contingents in Iraq as reported in the Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multina..._force_in_Iraq

    There are only 3 East-European countries still having troops there: Poland with 900 (population 38.6 million), Romania with 830 (population 22.3 million) and Georgia with 400 (4.6 million !!!). Interestingly enough, Georgia has also deployed another 500 troops under UN mandate (the UNAMI forces), which puts this tiny country on the #4 position in terms of non-US troops deployed in Iraq.

    What do all those 3 countries have in common? All 3 of them have "unfinished business" with Russia and therefore all of them need a strong military ally in order to feel secure:
    1) Poland has lost almost half of its pre-WW2 territory to the Soviet Union. While probably no serious politician in Poland considers taking those territories back from Belarus and Ukraine, Poland is actively working to pull Ukraine and Belarus outside the orbit of Moscow. After all what Stalin did in 1940 can be repaired in the future when Belarus and Ukriane join the EU (yeah, distant future, but still). Polish secret services were quite active in Ukraine prior to the Orange Revolution there. Among many notable successes they've managed to evacuate an Ukrainean secret-service defector who then exposed Viktor Ianukovich's ties to the organized crime and his involvement in the assasination attempt on Viktor Iushcenko. Also recently an anti-Lukashenko (Belarus' dictator) campaign was staged in Poland. No wonder that Russia does its best to pay Poland in kind (see the highly controversial Russian-German Baltic Sea gas pipeline). Polish designs in Eastern Europe can't be supported by the EU for a multitude of reasons (including the fact post-WW2 Poland was partly compensated for its territorial loss with a chunk of German territory) therefore Poland has to dance on the music played in Washington.
    2) Romania has lost the eastern part of pre-WW2 territory to the Soviet Union. Most of this territory is now part of the Republic of Moldova while a tiny part is in Ukraine. The issue of the territory now incorporated in Ukraine was solved through bilateral agreements providing cultural rights for the Romanian minority. Like the case of Polish-Ukrainean relations, no serious politician in Bucharest is considering taking back that territory. Moldova is a diferent story because a reunification with Romania is quite possible. However the post-1991 attempts of the Romanian and Moldovan governments for a close cooperation leading eventually to re-unification were constantly hampered by Russia (including the 1992 episode during which the Russian army carved out the eastern part of Moldova forming there the breakaway "Republic of Transnistria"). The Romanian-Russian relations are further complicated by the fact a lot of heavy and petro-chemical industry in Romania is dependent on raw materials from Russia. That practically forced the Romanian government to sell many of those companies to Russian "investors". Placing big Romanian companies with lots of workers into the hands of the Russian oligarchy (the only way to save tens of thousands of jobs) while in the same time waging a silent war against Russia (controlled by the same oligarchy) in Moldova resulted in the Romanian government desperately needing a strong ally and the US was the only one available.
    3) Georgia was under Russian occupation for 200 years and, like Moldova, has seen the Russian army carving out a part of territory. Add to that the tiny size of the country and their almost unconditional support for the US policies (whatever those would be) is easy to understand.

    In contrast to Poland, Romania or Georgia, Hungary and Czech Republic had no important interests to justify a close cooperation with the US. This is why their support for the invasion of Iraq was much more limited. Same for Bulgaria, which withdrew its troops (originaly 380 strong) once its 2 objectives were achieved. (Bulgaria wanted NATO membership and US military bases on its territory). Can US retaliate against the "manipulative" Bulgarians? Not really, since they need the bases there in order to project their force more effectively in Eastern Europe and the Middle East. Besides while US is the gate-keeper when it comes to joining NATO, it can't kick a country out of the organization. So whoever needs to enter NATO has to please US only untill it gets inside.

    Or let's consider the case of Ukraine: even the so-called "pro-Russian" government of president Leonid Kuchma & prime-minister Viktor Yanukovich sent 1650 troops to Iraq in 2003. Then the clearly pro-Western president Vicktor Yushcenko, whose Orange Revolution was strongly supported by the Americans, pulled them out in 2005. What would be the explanation of this paradox?

    To begin with, no Ukrainean government post 1991 was pro-Russian. They were a product of the Ukrainean oligarchy and therefore would do their best to oppose the Russian oligarchy taking control of the country. The rest of the Ukrainean population was divided almost in half on the issue of the independence. The Russian minority in Ukraine is only 17%. However almost half of the population (roughly the eastern part of the country, which is also the most industrialised part) can't speak or write Ukrainean correctly and uses Russian as everyday language, even though the people do not consider themselves Russians. The majority of the of the jobs in eastern Ukraine being dependent on good business relations with Russia, they were not at all enthusiastic about the independence (nor about the central government forcing the Ukrainean language onto them).

    With half a country only barely under their control and with Russia trying to regain its influence it is understandable why the government prior to the Orange Revolution seeked the protection of the US. They had nothing else to offer to the US except the troops and the political backing of the so-called "coalition of the willing". Nobody else in the West was keen to associate to a corrupt and anti-democratic regime in place in Kiev but we know US government, the "beackon of freedom and democracy" has no problems to do so as long as it serves its purposes (see the "outstanding" track record of US in Southern and Central America, Africa, Asia and the Middle East).

    Once the Orange Revolution triumphed the new government received a lot of political and economic support from every democratic country. That reduced the dependence of the Ukrainean government on US. Since the sending of troops to Iraq wasn't popular in Ukraine the new president withdrew them. The move consolidated his popularity at home (he had barely won the elections by a very narrow margin) and made Ukraine even more popular with France and Germany (Germany being the largest Western investor there). More important, US was in no position to retaliate because it cannot afford to lose Ukraine to Russia.

    South Korea's government's reasons to be involved in Iraq might seem obvious, considering who's their Northern neighbor. However no one imagines US would abandon South Korea. Then why are they there? Simple: the Korean industry has high expectations when it comes to the Middle East. Like Japan, South Korea looks like a democracy on the outside while the political decisions are taken by the leaders of the big businesses there. This, together with the security concerns explains why the South Koreans are there with the 3rd largest contingent of troops after US and UK, inspite the lack of public support.

    A look at what the South Korean troops and mercenaries/"private security companies" are doing there shows the motivation of the government for being there is not much different than of the true one behind Dubya's invasion :
    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multina..._force_in_Iraq

    About 3,300 South Korean troops are officially deployed in Iraq (as of October 1 2005). In early December 2005, the National Assembly voted with one abstention for the withdrawal of 1000 troops in the first half of 2006, thus approving a government proposal. The main tasks of the troops are to offer medical services and build and repair roads, power lines, schools and other infrastructure. The 2,500 soldiers, mostly combat engineers of the Zaytun ("olive-peace") Division were deployed in late September 2004 to Irbil in the Kurdish-controlled region of northern Iraq, and combined with the 660 humanitarian troops that have been operating in southern Iraq since April 2003, South Korea has the third-largest military presence in the war-torn nation after the United States and Britain. There are also large numbers of Korean mercenaries, most notably from the NKTS, a private Korean security company, operating in Iraq. They are estimated to number between 70 to 700, and most protect South Korean civilian assets as well as other coalition civilian assets.
    As the saying goes, money makes the work go round Dubya has his cronnies, the South Korean Government also has people who need fat contracts.

    This brings us to the motivation of Japan for being there. Nobody can seriously think US would not protect Japan in case of an attack from Russia, China or North Korea. So the Japanese didn't need to please the US by sending troops. However Japan, South Korea and in the recent times China are waging a merciless war for controlling the Middle Eastern markets. Political decision making in Japan is similar to that in South Korea so the Japanese troops are sent overseas even though 69% of the population is against it. Like in the case of the East Europeans, the public opinion holds little weight in the decisions of the government. The population of US could stop the American intervention in Iraq by imitating what happened in the Vietnam war. However that is not the case in most of the countries members of the "coalition of the willing".

    Some interesting insight into how the Japanese government operates was revealed in an aparently unrelated incident: last year 3 Romanian reporters were kidnapped in Iraq. The Romanian intelligence in the Middle East uses the strong networks established during the Cold War when lots of people from that region studied in Romania and when the Romanian companies had an important contribution in developping the industrial base of those countries (by the way, almost half of the Romanian contingent in Iraq is military intelligence and military police, thus intelligence-related as well). Currently there are 20000 mixed Iraqi-Romanian families there. Mind you, those families are families of people who hold university degrees and as a result were the past and are the present elite of Iraq. Due to such strong intelligence assets the Romanians had in Iraq the journalists were freed unharmed after 3 months of captivity. The Romanians further used their connections to also set free the French journalist Florence Aubenas thus making the French government publicly thank the Romanian government for this. It was the same French government who had almost threatened to block Romania's asscension to the EU because of Romania supporting the US invasion While everybody expected that the 3 former hostages would be debriefed by the Americans and by the Romanian secret services there was another party present at the debriefings that took place in Romania. The Japanese from the JICA (Japan International Cooperation Agecy) where brought by the Romanian secret services to assist to the debriefings. Oficially JICA (http://www.jica.go.jp/english/index.html) deals with helping developing countires improve their economy. Seems that assistance is just part of their job

    The South Korean and Japanese involvement in Iraq might also explain what were the Spanish and the Italian governments after when they've decided to join the US. Neither Spain nor Italy were in dire need of US support like the countries of Eastern Europe. But guess what? The French, the German and the Russian companies were doing lots of profitable business in Iraq prior to the invasion. Dubya's cronnies wanted that business and the idiotic Saddam was practically begging to be invaded.

    It was obvious the French, Germans and Russians would lose most of those contracts even in the event they would have sided with the US: first Saddam would kick them out then the Americans would go in and be the ones to divide the spoils of war, taking the lion's share for themselves. So the French, the Russians and the Germans had nothing left but to protest. Of course while protesting against the US imperialism they were not having any second thoughts about doing business with a ferocious dictator....

    On the other hand, everybody else who didn't have much lucrative business there could negotiate the size of their slices with Dubya's gang. After all, with no UN support the gang needed to trade some of the future profit in exchange for "international support". Berlusconi, investigated by the Italian prosecutors for all sorts of "creative" ways of mixing business with politics seemed like the right guy for the job on the behalf of his fellow Italian oligarchs. I'm not acquinted well enough to the backstage of the Spanish politics so I have no idea what made the Spanish government join in (nor the Dutch or the Danish for that matter). However whatever motivation the Spanish government had, that decision cost them the elections. And considering the reaction of the Spanish government that followed, whatever "higher interest" might have been, they were not important enough.

    I think it's pretty obvious that I'd be very interested to read other studies about what was the reasons of diferent governments for joining the "coaliton of the willing"
    Last edited by Dromikaites; May 21, 2006 at 10:13 AM.
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Who says the bit about preemptive defense was a guise, rather than being sincere? (Are you able to read George Bush's mind?) Which public was discontent with the plan, and among whom was it unpopular? (Certainly not the US at the time.)

    Okay, I realize that's completely ancillary to the point of your discussion, and I did only read the first few paragraphs, so I'm probably not being entirely helpful. But if your intended audience includes many conservatives, as TWC does, you probably annoyed a nontrivial percentage with that initial summary.

    *steps aside to let the intended audience read the essay*
    -Preemptive defense is all we heard running up to the conflict. It was not to liberate, get oil, or any other reason. "Liberate" might have been thrown into the bag of reasons just for good meassure, but a minute reason in retrospect. That is just it, I can't read his mind. Given the result of his hunt for WMDs, assuming his sincerity is much more tainted with bias than going the other way. There are all these circumstances surrounding Iraq (oil rich country, hostile to US, sponsored terrorism/personally affecting President, "unfinnished" previous war...) that make for much more complex assessment of the reasons Bush waged this war. Point in Case: Preemptive defense was this huge poster advertising for the war. It turned out to be incorrect.
    -Certainly not in the US, though it was pretty close in here. Name me any other that did support. I am sure you will find none in Europe. Not even in the CEE countries that did join the US. In the intro I am setting, in my mind, a pretty accurate mood of the war and its impact on the war. It's hardly exegaration considering the massive uproar. I don't think there was such a global outcry against the US actions before. Anyways, this is just a paragraph of my work.

    I don't really have an "intended" audience. I guess it would be anyone interested in learning the often untold story of small states and their role in alliance formation. Also, this is a very relevant topic. I present a view that is often unrepresented in the media. I simply let Slovakia and Czech Republic talk and act for themselves, without any political agenda behind it. The same model of garnering support can be applied to other CEE countries, because of similar circumstances.

    @Dromikaites: WOW
    Seems like you have been working on a research of your own.
    I don't know much about Romania. My mentor on this research project is from there and he included this country in his much more extensive study. He mentioned none of those things you have .
    I did a little research on Poland and it seems like US invovlement was much more intensive. Poland actually got millions in aid to modernize its military. Polands size and importance in the region can account for the US involvement. US went after the leader of the pack.
    The security threat from Russia is more implicit than explicit. NATO serves to eliminate the last vestige of it. It also serves as a vehicle for cultural change. No country will join the organization be pretending to be US friend and then just go back to ignoring it. With membership smaller countries are oulled into the US orbit and their decisionmaking henceforth is affected in this way. It may not be as supportive as before, nor is it the opposite. By joining the org they show commitment to keeping the US in Europe as a security enforcer. By ****ing it off, they may drive away the enforcer. US is a country with interests like any other. If it doesn't get anything in return, why waste the effort on free riders.
    Last edited by JANOSIK007; May 21, 2006 at 05:19 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    Point in Case: Preemptive defense was this huge poster advertising for the war. It turned out to be incorrect.
    A "guise", however, is an outward appearance or semblance, so you're strongly suggesting that Bush actually had different motives from his outward ones when in fact no one (except possibly him) knows for sure whether or not he did. It makes it sound as if he was deliberately trying to deceive people, when in fact nobody knows whether he was.

    (Incidentally, the absence of chemical and biological weapons doesn't mean that they didn't exist; and regardless of whether they did, Iraq has attacked its neighbors—Kuwait, obviously, plus Scud missiles launched at Saudi Arabia and Israel—enough times for it to legitimately be called something of a regional threat. Not much of one, at least to friends of America, but frankly, chemical and biological weapons are of dubious military effectiveness anyway against military targets, at least.)
    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    -Certainly not in the US, though it was pretty close in here.
    In an ABC News/Washington Post poll from March 17 (two days before the war started), 71% of Americans (±4.5 percentage points) said they supported America going to war against Iraq. In a poll published the same day by NBC News/The Wall Street Journal (possibly taken a bit earlier), 65% (±4.4 percentage points) gave that answer, up from 58% six months previous. Polls immediately after the war started showed slightly increased support, somewhere in the seventies, peaking at 80% by some counts. While 65% support is hardly staggering, it's still very strong by most standards, and that's the lower figure.

    Source: http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq9.htm

    Europe was overwhelmingly against waging the war unilaterally, of course. Source That pegs British support as very low as well, although interestingly, this Pew report suggests that their support jumped dramatically to 60% or so when the war actually started (as opposed to 44% who supported joining the war if it started in the USA Today poll). As for others that supported, I would guess Israel may have, but yeah, very few.

    Edit: The BBC gives UK as 53% support in June, and Israel as 79%.
    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    In the intro I am setting, in my mind, a pretty accurate mood of the war and its impact on the war. It's hardly exegaration considering the massive uproar.
    Massive outcry, yes, but not really in the US. There were of course some demonstrations, but not very large ones. So while you were accurately depicting the world scene, the US scene was very different. I just felt you should make that a bit clearer, since many people appear to have misconceptions of how Americans felt then.
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    A "guise", however, is an outward appearance or semblance, so you're strongly suggesting that Bush actually had different motives from his outward ones when in fact no one (except possibly him) knows for sure whether or not he did. It makes it sound as if he was deliberately trying to deceive people, when in fact nobody knows whether he was.
    Humm, what about saying that there are WMDs in Iraq while CIA told him nothing of the sort? So if CIA didn't tell him Saddam has WMDs and if he wasn't trying to decieve people then it means somebody else did convince him of the existence of those WMDs.

    Besides, unless a criminal confesses sincerely then we have no means of knowing for sure what that criminal's intentions were. This is why in court they don't convict somebody based on knowing what his intentions were. Judges or jurors (depending on whatever system is used to decide if somebody is guilty or innoncent) assume the intentions based on the evidence available to them.

    So far Dubya said he knows Saddam has WMDs and CIA said they didn't tell him such a thing. Based on that evidence one might either assume Dubya was intentionally deceiving the world (Americans included) or that Dubya trusts more other sources than the CIA when he decides to engage the US in a war.

    Who that might be, we don't know for sure. What we do know is the former Prime Minister of Palestine, Mahmoud Abbas heard Dubya saying that God talks to him. If indeed Dubya told Abbas he hears God from time to time then of course it makes sense to trust God over the CIA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Humm, what about saying that there are WMDs in Iraq while CIA told him nothing of the sort?
    Hmm? George Tenet seems to think that he told Bush that Iraq had WMDs. The CIA website's copy of its October 2002 report on Iraq's WMD programs also seems to say "Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions". The British Joint Intelligence Committee also said in September 2002 that "Iraq is pursuing a nuclear weapons programme." Why do you say the CIA didn't say there were WMDs?
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Hmm? George Tenet seems to think that he told Bush that Iraq had WMDs. The CIA website's copy of its October 2002 report on Iraq's WMD programs also seems to say "Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions". The British Joint Intelligence Committee also said in September 2002 that "Iraq is pursuing a nuclear weapons programme." Why do you say the CIA didn't say there were WMDs?
    Well, how about Tyler Drumheller (CIA's head of covert ops in Europe)? Drumheller managed to recruit Naji Sabri, Iraq’s foreign minister. According to Drumheller's interview on CBS http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...49_page2.shtml in autumn 2002 CIA and the White House knew that there was no WMD program running in Iraq nor did Saddam have any WMDs stashed.

    Let's add to that what Tenet had to say about the content of the reports CIA offered to Dubya. I'm quoting from the CNN page you kindly provided:
    George Tenet, CIA director:
    "Let me be clear: Analysts differed on several important aspects of these programs and those debates were spelled out in the estimate.

    "They never said there was an imminent threat. Rather, they painted an objective assessment for our policy-makers of a brutal dictator who was continuing his efforts to deceive and build programs that might constantly surprise us and threaten our interests. No one told us what to say or how to say it."
    So:
    1. Saddam was a brutal dictator. (Yep, he was)
    2. He was continuing his efforts to deceive (Yep, he did. While UN was forcing Iraq to get money only trough UN controlled bank accounts, Saddam used the greed of different corporations which wanted to do business in Iraq to extract additional income, not monitored by the UN).
    3. And he was building programs that might constantly surprise the US and threaten its interests. (He probably did. However starting with the recruitment of Naji Sabri, CIA and Dubya knew that those programs did not refer to WMD nor to supporting al Qaeda. Osama was trying to unseat him and Iran was supporting the Shias against him so he could not have funded or aided in any way neither al Qaeda nor Hezbollah. So what programs might Sadam have built in order to surprise US and threaten its interests? For instance he might have tried to acquire better anti-aircraft capabilities. At the time there were 2 no-flight zones over Iraq and the Iraqi radar stations were bombed on several occasions in response for activating the radars and locking them on US or British fighters. Why would the Iraqis repeatedly activate their radars only to have them destroyed? There is only one logical explanation: they were testing with various signals and frequencies in an attempt to find a combination that could not be detected by the enemy. So yes, Saddam was continuing to pursue programs aimed at threatening the US interests. But programs like the one with the radars are pursued by every major power and they are defensive. Of course under the protection of an effective AA shield Saddam would have probably gone on a rampage against the Kurds and Shias. An effective AA shield would have also made more costly an invasion of Iraq thus threatening the US interests. It is common knowledge the US government invades any country where human rights are blatantly violated. The US invasions of Rwanda, Chechnya, Pinochet-times Chile and Sudan prove the syntagm "US interests" used by Gorge Tenet means enforcing the respect for human rights).

    Hats off to Tenet by the way: he worded his answers so carefuly as to avoid being accused by the press he told Dubya about WMDs. All he did, according to his statements, was to tell that Saddam is pursuing programs aimed at threatening the US interests. WMDs and international terrorism were not part of those programms, otherwise Tenet would have said so to the press. Sudan, Rwanda or the Russian actions in Chechnya were probably not part of programs threatening the US interests

    My point is that Janosik007 has enough publicly available evidence to suspect "preemptive defense" was a guise. Tough luck if that infuriates the conservative audience of TWC.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    You are reading too much into this one word "guise". It tells me more about your sensibilities rather than my bias when so much stress and focus is placed over this one seemingly insignificant word compared to the project at hand.

    I go with the assumption that there will always be pragmatic alterior motives which are not suited for press conferences or public speeches. If you believe otherwise, then I'm sorry, but you're just gullible.

    BTW, "Iraq has continued its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) programs in defiance of UN resolutions and restrictions" is not the same as "Iraq has WMDs." To turn the first statement into second one takes a lot of maneuvering and speaks to the intentions, or rather their covertness, relating to the war. Also, it is not clear whether the resolutions are from the Assembly or Security Council. Breaking the former is no big deal, really.

    Also, I think you downplay the dissent at home. I remember millions of protestersin New York, Chicago, LA, and other major cities in the US. With the falling rate of demonstrations in the US, I would not label these as "not very large ones." US was up there with Europeans in terms of number of protesters, and Europeans are far more prone to protest en masse.

    Anyways, what we are discussing right now is an insiginficant facet of my paper. I have no problems to continue discussing it.


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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Well, how about Tyler Drumheller (CIA's head of covert ops in Europe)? Drumheller managed to recruit Naji Sabri, Iraq’s foreign minister. According to Drumheller's interview on CBS http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...49_page2.shtml in autumn 2002 CIA and the White House knew that there was no WMD program running in Iraq nor did Saddam have any WMDs stashed.
    In which case it's Drumheller's word against Bush's, Tenet's, etc. One is either lying or mistaken. Did Bush lie to cover up, or did Drumheller lie to gain press attention and/or satisfy a personal grudge, or did wishful thinking cause one or the other to genuinely believe his words? I don't think either of us is in a position to say, which is all I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Let's add to that what Tenet had to say about the content of the reports CIA offered to Dubya. I'm quoting from the CNN page you kindly provided:
    George Tenet, CIA director:
    "Let me be clear: Analysts differed on several important aspects of these programs and those debates were spelled out in the estimate.

    "They never said there was an imminent threat. Rather, they painted an objective assessment for our policy-makers of a brutal dictator who was continuing his efforts to deceive and build programs that might constantly surprise us and threaten our interests. No one told us what to say or how to say it."
    . . . Hats off to Tenet by the way: he worded his answers so carefuly as to avoid being accused by the press he told Dubya about WMDs.
    Your quote has nothing to do with WMDs. At all. Nothing in that link directly addresses the WMD issue. If you consult the unabridged version of that speech, however, you will see Tenet making clear statements such as
    We believed that Iraq had lethal Biological Weapon agents, including anthrax, which it could quickly produce and weaponize for delivery by bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives. . . . Let me now turn to Chemical Weapons. We said in the Estimate with high confidence that Iraq had them. . . . a source who had direct access to Saddam and his inner circle said . . . Iraq was not in possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon. . . .
    So I think that suggesting Tenet tried to "avoid being accused by the press he told Dubya about WMDs" is flat-out false, since he point-blank said that he told Bush about them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    It is common knowledge the US government invades any country where human rights are blatantly violated. The US invasions of Rwanda, Chechnya, Pinochet-times Chile and Sudan prove the syntagm "US interests" used by Gorge Tenet means enforcing the respect for human rights
    I never said anything other than that we don't know what Bush's motives were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    My point is that Janosik007 has enough publicly available evidence to suspect "preemptive defense" was a guise.
    My point is that he doesn't. None of us has enough evidence to conclusively say anything, and to take the word of one man three and a half years after the fact against the word of the collective US intelligence community from the time in question seems a bit peculiar even if you're only being suspicious.
    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    You are reading too much into this one word "guise". It tells me more about your sensibilities rather than my bias when so much stress and focus is placed over this one seemingly insignificant word compared to the project at hand.
    Actually, it just tells you that I only read the first two paragraphs or so, plus I know nothing whatsoever about the political situations in Slovakia or the Czech Republic.
    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    I go with the assumption that there will always be pragmatic alterior motives which are not suited for press conferences or public speeches. If you believe otherwise, then I'm sorry, but you're just gullible.
    There will very often be ulterior motives, often pragmatic although occasionally idealistic, but not always. Sometimes the motive happens to be something that's publicly announceable, either because it's unusually unself-interested or because the speaker's motives happen to coincide with the public's.
    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    Also, I think you downplay the dissent at home. I remember millions of protestersin New York, Chicago, LA, and other major cities in the US. With the falling rate of demonstrations in the US, I would not label these as "not very large ones." US was up there with Europeans in terms of number of protesters, and Europeans are far more prone to protest en masse.
    But demonstrations are far less worthwhile as indications of public discontent than opinion surveys, which show strong although not overwhelming support for the war.
    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    Anyways, what we are discussing right now is an insiginficant facet of my paper. I have no problems to continue discussing it.
    I think you mean you do have problems to continue discussing it? Or do you actually mean you want to continue discussing it? If you aren't interested in continuing but Dromikaites is, I'll ask a mod to split this off into a new thread.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    You guys can go ahead and duel this out in this thread. Not many people contributing anyways.

    Just a note on what you said.

    But demonstrations are far less worthwhile as indications of public discontent than opinion surveys, which show strong although not overwhelming support for the war.
    Exactly! The country that led the process saw a considerable minority (between 40 and 30%) against war. And I think this is the biggest ammount of public support compared to other countries, perhaps except Israel. In fact I don't think that there are any countries, except for these two were a majority was for the war. At least not in terms that this war was waged (without the UN mandate). You still insist that I was exagerating when I mentioned the global disaproval of the war?


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  13. #13

    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    In which case it's Drumheller's word against Bush's, Tenet's, etc. One is either lying or mistaken. Did Bush lie to cover up, or did Drumheller lie to gain press attention and/or satisfy a personal grudge, or did wishful thinking cause one or the other to genuinely believe his words? I don't think either of us is in a position to say, which is all I said.
    It simply doesn't work that way.
    1) Drumheller claims to have recruited Iraq's foreign ministry. If he was lieing that would have been easy to prove. After all, Naji Sabri could have been brought to a press conference to deny that. It didn't happen so there is a very high probability Drumheller was telling the truth when he claimed to have recruited Sabri.
    2) Drumheller claims that Sabri told CIA there were no programs of WMD in place. Again, Sabri could have either said that on the contrary, he exposed Saddam's ongoing WMD programms or he could say CIA never asked him about WMDs. Since Sabri says nothing of the sort we again must assume Drumheller tells the truth.

    As for why Drumheller exposed Dubya, you might be right, but that doesn't chage the essence of the issue: long before the invasion Dubya knew there was no WMD program going on in Iraq.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Your quote has nothing to do with WMDs. At all. Nothing in that link directly addresses the WMD issue.
    Yep, that was precisely my point. May I remind you that it is you who provided that link?
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    If you consult the unabridged version of that speech, however, you will see Tenet making clear statements such as
    We believed that Iraq had lethal Biological Weapon agents, including anthrax, which it could quickly produce and weaponize for delivery by bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives. . . . Let me now turn to Chemical Weapons. We said in the Estimate with high confidence that Iraq had them. . . . a source who had direct access to Saddam and his inner circle said . . . Iraq was not in possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon. . . .
    So I think that suggesting Tenet tried to "avoid being accused by the press he told Dubya about WMDs" is flat-out false, since he point-blank said that he told Bush about them.
    Not so fast!

    First of all Tenet speaks only about the October 2002 report. Me and you so far do not have any idea if this report was delivered before or after Drumhaller had recruited Naji Sabri. Anyway, one might assume that prior to the invasion CIA should have prepared other reports. Do you have Tenet's remarks about those ones?

    Second, if my English serves me (not being my native language I can never be sure I get it right), Tenet talks about Saddam wanting to posess WMDs. However for each and every type of WMD the CIA knew Iraq was nowhere near completion. Could it be because of the effectiveness of the UN sanctions?

    Yes, Saddam had found ways to exploit the greediness of many companies in order to accumulate money ouside the UN control. However that money could not buy him anything he was interested in. In this respect his story is like Gaddafi's. Lybia was under a less strict embargo than Iraq yet he could not make any chemical weapons. Therefore he eventualy smartened up and decided to abandon the program.

    Tenet himself says:
    Let me turn to the nuclear issue. In the Estimate, all agencies agreed that Saddam wanted nuclear weapons. Most were convinced that he still had a program and if he obtained fissile material he could have a weapon within a year. But we detected no such acquisition.

    * We made two judgments that get overlooked these days—We said Saddam did not have a nuclear weapon and, probably would have been unable to make one until 2007 to 2009.
    * Most agencies believed that Saddam had begun to reconstitute his nuclear program, but they disagreed on a number of issues such as which procurement activities were designed to support his nuclear program. But let me be clear, where there were differences, the Estimate laid out the disputes clearly.
    Do you honestly believe that if tomorrow the extraterestrials would offer Gaddafi a Death Star he would refuse it? Just because one wants to own WMDs doesn't mean one is always able to obtain them. And Tenet shows that CIA was sure he didn't had nukes, nor that he would be able to have then untill 4 - 6 years after the invasion.

    Let's quote Tenet again, this time on the biological weapons:
    Let me turn to biological weapons. The Estimate said that Baghdad had them, and that all key aspects of an offensive program—Research and Development, production, and weaponization—were still active, and most elements were larger, and more advanced than before the first Gulf war.

    We believed that Iraq had lethal Biological Weapon agents, including anthrax, which it could quickly produce and weaponize for delivery by bombs, missiles, aerial sprayers, and covert operatives. But we said we had no specific information on the types or quantities of weapons, agent, or stockpiles at Baghdad’s disposal.
    Could CIA believe that after recruiting Naji Sabri? Certainly not.

    And finally let's see about the chemical weapons:
    Let me now turn to Chemical Weapons. We said in the Estimate with high confidence that Iraq had them. We also believed, though with less certainty, that Saddam had stocked at least 100 metric tons of agent. That may sound like a lot, but it would fit in a few dorm rooms on this campus.

    Initially, the community was skeptical about whether Iraq had restarted Chemical Weapons agent production. Sources had reported that Iraq had begun renewed production, and imagery and intercepts gave us additional concerns.

    But only when analysts saw what they believed to be satellite photos of shipments of materials from ammunition sites did they believe that Iraq was again producing Chemical Weapon agents.
    This is another set of hypoteses which should have been discarded after recruiting Naji Sabri.

    Bottom line: once the prime minister of Iraq was recruited, well before the time of the invasion, Dubya should have known Saddam has a lot of wishes for WMDs but no WMD nor any program running.

    But how trustworthy would have been Naji Sabri? Extremly trustworthy. Here's why:

    Say I want to "intoxicate" my recruiter. I need to start first by feeding him with information that can be checked through his already established intelligence network. This would make me a credible source.

    Then I need to deliver some information nobody else had provided, but which would turn out to be true in the near future. Of course all that info is carefully engineered by the intelligence service I work for. The purpose of this step is to convince my recruiter I'm a priviledged source, one who provides him with information nobody else in his network can confirm beforehand. Sometimes I would even escalate by allowing him to accumulate data about myself that he thinks that can be used to blackmail me in the future. The more secure he feels he controls me, the better. Anyway the main purpose of this step is to convince him that I would serve him stuff impossible to verify and he should take it at face value.

    The third step is to start feeding him tonns of bull, like convincing him that the Allies would land in Pas de Calais while they were already en-route to Normandy. As in step two, I would be supported by the intelligence agency I work for, making sure some of the bull is always confirmed from "independent" sources.

    There are two issues with such missions:
    1. As time goes by, the intelligence network of my enemy might expand and therefore some genuine spy might discover the bull. Or some of my collaborators might defect and expose me. Intoxication missions therefore have a very speciffic rather short-term purpose. I need to cover a major operation that would eventualy take place and hit the enemy hard at a precise date.
    2. The recruiter himself is a professional and has a whole intelligence structure behind him. He is trained not to swallow everything I tell him. He would give me assignments aimed at checking if I'm a genuine traitor or not. The more means for gathering intelligence I claim to have, the easier is for him to test if indeed that is the case. If I claim I have access to a high-ranked official or to a top secret facility then most likely the enemy has already surrounded that ''target" with a network of his own agents. So it's easy for my recruiter to give me an assignment that can be easily checked independently. This is why the best "intoxicators" claimed to have access to "little people" or less "hot" places.

    If we take all that into account then Naji Sabri would be a very unlikely "intoxicator".
    1. He would have been expected to be able to play his game for many years (the time needed by Iraq to acquire enough capabilities to efectively threaten the US or the region without fearing the US' retaliation).
    2. He was part of Saddam's inner circle. Therefore whatever important secret would have been discovered by the CIA independently, without Naji Sabri first telling about it, he would have been exposed as an "intoxicator".
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    I never said anything other than that we don't know what Bush's motives were.
    Sure, however Janosik007 has enough "circumstantial evidence" to suspect an intention to deceive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    My point is that he doesn't. None of us has enough evidence to conclusively say anything, and to take the word of one man three and a half years after the fact against the word of the collective US intelligence community from the time in question seems a bit peculiar even if you're only being suspicious.
    Well, it is not only what Tenet and Drumheller said. It is also when they said their piece each. The last Tenet document mentioned by Simetrical is dated February 5 2005 while Drumheller spoke to the CBS in April this year.

    In February 2005 Tenet is speaking about the National Intelligence Estimate of October of 2002. He talks about what CIA new when that document was created. He mentions nothing else about the intelligence CIA had delivered to the White House after that. Instead he jumps directly to what was known in February 2005.

    Then comes Drumheller. According to MSNBC http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11927856/page/2/ Naji Sabri was recruited in September 2002. It makes sense that the info he provided on that occasion was not included in the National Intelligence Estimate of October of 2002. CIA had first to check if he was indeed cooperating.

    But according to Drumheller by the end of 2002 CIA knew he was not lieing to them. Of course in February 2005 Tenet could not be sure a disgruntled Drumheller would talk in April 2006. Still he limited himself to the October 2002 report and to the public domain info that became available after the invasion. By doing that he acted like a pro: didn't tell anything that would "incriminate" him or Dubya then or in the future. It was a masterpiece of "communication skills in action" so well executed that many people probably didn't ask themselves:"OK, but what has happened between October 2002 and the invasion?"

    An interesting aspect: according to MSNBC Sabri himself was wrong assuming that Saddam still had stocks of chemical weapons. This mistake could have not undermined Sabri's credibility because he was in a way telling what Dubya wanted to hear (though he was also saying no new chemical weapons were made). However we shouldn't jump too soon to any conclusions about Naji Sabri's overall credibility now that we know he was wrong about the chemical weapons stashed since the first Gulf War. It's more dificult to conceal an WMD program than a warehouse of chemical weapons (which would have been anyway hidden).

    If one is part of the government it's much more easier for one to be right about no WMD program running than about "leftovers" from Gulf War 1. The location of ammunition warehouses would have been known only to a few in the military and in the Iraqi Secret Police while most of the Iraqi Cabinet members could only guess wether part of the chemical arsenal had survived or not. An industrial program however would have involved the co-operation among several ministries which implies several members of the Cabinet would have been in the loop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    There will very often be ulterior motives, often pragmatic although occasionally idealistic, but not always. Sometimes the motive happens to be something that's publicly announceable, either because it's unusually unself-interested or because the speaker's motives happen to coincide with the public's.

    But demonstrations are far less worthwhile as indications of public discontent than opinion surveys, which show strong although not overwhelming support for the war.
    The question worth asking is would have been the support for the invasion stronger or weaker had the US public know about Naji Sabri's info?
    Last edited by Dromikaites; May 25, 2006 at 03:08 PM.
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  14. #14
    Simetrical's Avatar Former Chief Technician
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by JANOSIK007
    You still insist that I was exagerating when I mentioned the global disaproval of the war?
    I never said there wasn't global disapproval for the war. I suppose you just have a broader view of "public opinion" than I do: when I hear that with respect to a politician, I assume it means public opinion within his jurisdiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Again, Sabri could have either said that on the contrary, he exposed Saddam's ongoing WMD programms or he could say CIA never asked him about WMDs. Since Sabri says nothing of the sort we again must assume Drumheller tells the truth.
    Why do you assume that Sabri would tell the truth? On what basis are you judging anyone's trustworthiness? Has anyone asked Sabri for comment? You can't assume a few weeks of silence to mean assent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikates
    First of all Tenet speaks only about the October 2002 report. Me and you so far do not have any idea if this report was delivered before or after Drumhaller had recruited Naji Sabri.
    Drumheller says here that it was August and September, which would place it before the October report. But you know, that interview is very interesting, because in it Drumheller says
    He gave us a report in the middle of September of 2002 that came to us through an intermediary, but we were able to verify it, that Saddam had wanted nuclear weapons but was at least 18 months to two years away from nuclear weapons if they were able to get the fissile material to produce them. So they didn’t even have the fissile material at that point, so they were at least 18 months to two years away. . . .

    There was no immediate threat to U.S troops. There were chemical weapons that he described as gas, but they were distributed through the political leaders around the country. The army and military didn’t have access to them. Those were not found after the war, so we don’t know what happened.
    Or in other words, Saddam was seeking WMDs, just he wasn't too close to getting them. Slightly different story. And, it seems to me, one the CIA report matches: Saddam had no nuclear weapons but wanted them and was at least a year away from getting them, probably more; he had some chemical weapons, although not a huge amount.

    In fact, look more closely. Look at this part of Tenet's speech:

    it is important to remember that Estimates are not written in a vacuum. Let me tell you some of what was going on in the fall of 2002. Several sensitive reports crossed my desk from two sources characterized by our foreign partners as “established and reliable.”

    The first, from a source who had direct access to Saddam and his inner circle said:
    • Iraq was not in possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon. Saddam had recently called together his Nuclear Weapons Committee irate that Iraq did not yet have a weapon because money was no object and they possessed the scientific know how.
    • The Committee members assured Saddam that once the fissile material was in hand, a bomb could be ready in just 18-24 months. The return of UN inspectors would cause minimal disruption because, according to the source, Iraq was expert at denial and deception. [Cf. Drumheller: "Saddam had wanted nuclear weapons but was at least 18 months to two years away from nuclear weapons if they were able to get the fissile material to produce them."]
    • The same source said Iraq was stockpiling chemical weapons and that equipment to produce insecticides, under the oil-for-food program, had been diverted to covert chemical weapons production. [Cf. Drumheller: "There were chemical weapons that he described as gas, but they were distributed through the political leaders around the country. The army and military didn’t have access to them." Somewhat different, although both agree he had chemical weapons of some kind.]
    • The source said that
      • Iraq’s weapons of “last resort” were "mobile launchers armed with chemical weapons which would be fired at enemy forces and Israel." [No mention in Drumheller, could have just been omitted.]
      • Iraqi scientists were “dabbling” with biological weapons, with limited success,
      • But the quantities were not sufficient to constitute a real weapons program. [Cf. Drumheller: "the biological weapons that were described to us as basically a chemistry set-type of capability, that was all destroyed after the first Gulf War."]
    The 18–24-month period for acquisition, in particular, seems to make it obvious that this is the same guy. So I think it's fair to say that you're correct that this was a bit too late to make it into the report.

    But no one person is going to be a totally reliable intelligence source. Tenet refers to other sources, ones Drumheller didn't mention. Remember, Drumheller was only the head of CIA's European operations; if other major sources came through non-European channels, he might not have known about them, or at least not in detail. According to Tenet,
    A stream of reporting from a different sensitive source with access to senior Iraqi officials said he believed:
    • production of chemical and biological weapons was taking place,
    • that biological agents were easy to produce and to hide, and
    • prohibited chemicals were also being produced at dual-use facilities.
    Drumheller doesn't mention this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Just because one wants to own WMDs doesn't mean one is always able to obtain them. And Tenet shows that CIA was sure he didn't had nukes, nor that he would be able to have then untill 4 - 6 years after the invasion.
    Serious attempts (and these attempts were very serious and well-funded, from what Tenet said) by someone like Saddam to obtain nuclear weapons are certainly cause for concern. Maybe not invasion-worthy, but that depends on how willing you are to go to war. Given that Bush's term would have ended about two years after he started the war, Bush didn't know if he'd have time to wait and see what came of the programs himself. Even if he'd have preferred to wait two or three years, he couldn't have. So issues of time are, I think, not by themselves sufficient evidence to conclusively demonstrate any particular intent.

    Let's clarify the question a bit. No one disputes that Saddam wanted WMDs. The question is whether it's plausible that Bush wasn't spinning things when he stressed WMDs as a major reason for going to war (he did mention other reasons as well, keep in mind, he just stressed WMDs the most). That is, is it plausible that Saddam (who we agree is a homicidal maniac) having a serious nuclear weapons program could have been a significant factor in Bush's decision to go to war? I think it's plausible, so I don't think you can make assumptions to the contrary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Sure, however Janosik007 has enough "circumstantial evidence" to suspect an intention to deceive.
    But not to state it as fact.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Why do you assume that Sabri would tell the truth? On what basis are you judging anyone's trustworthiness? Has anyone asked Sabri for comment? You can't assume a few weeks of silence to mean assent.
    On one hand Drumheller said they have checked Sabri and he turned out to be credible. I assume CIA has methods to estimate the credibility of its sources. On the other hand I've explained why Sabri would have been a very unlikely "intoxicator".

    So we have 2 sets of reasons to assume Sabri was telling the truth:
    • Because CIA thought so and because logic makes him an unlikely "intoxicator"
    • Because now we know there are no WMDs in Iraq


    According to Wikipedia Naji Sabri teaches journalism in Qatar. If Wiki can "find" him now I assume the journalists had found him before. I also assume his friends or his students would have pointed out to him the Drumheller story. How long would it take you to go to Al-Jazeera (based in Qatar) and denounce such allegations if you were Sabri?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Drumheller says here that it was August and September, which would place it before the October report. But you know, that interview is very interesting, because in it Drumheller says
    He gave us a report in the middle of September of 2002 that came to us through an intermediary, but we were able to verify it, that Saddam had wanted nuclear weapons but was at least 18 months to two years away from nuclear weapons if they were able to get the fissile material to produce them. So they didn’t even have the fissile material at that point, so they were at least 18 months to two years away. . . .


    There was no immediate threat to U.S troops. There were chemical weapons that he described as gas, but they were distributed through the political leaders around the country. The army and military didn’t have access to them. Those were not found after the war, so we don’t know what happened.
    Or in other words, Saddam was seeking WMDs, just he wasn't too close to getting them. Slightly different story. And, it seems to me, one the CIA report matches: Saddam had no nuclear weapons but wanted them and was at least a year away from getting them, probably more; he had some chemical weapons, although not a huge amount.
    The way I read Druheller's words is this:
    1. Saddam wanted nukes
    2. Iraq didn't have fissile material to produce them;
    3. There was no plausible date by which Iraq would acquire fissile material;
    4. Once Iraq would have acquired fissile material then it would take Saddam another 18 months to 2 years to make the nukes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    In fact, look more closely. Look at this part of Tenet's speech:

    it is important to remember that Estimates are not written in a vacuum. Let me tell you some of what was going on in the fall of 2002. Several sensitive reports crossed my desk from two sources characterized by our foreign partners as “established and reliable.”

    The first, from a source who had direct access to Saddam and his inner circle said:
    • Iraq was not in possession of a nuclear weapon. However, Iraq was aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon. Saddam had recently called together his Nuclear Weapons Committee irate that Iraq did not yet have a weapon because money was no object and they possessed the scientific know how.
    • The Committee members assured Saddam that once the fissile material was in hand, a bomb could be ready in just 18-24 months. The return of UN inspectors would cause minimal disruption because, according to the source, Iraq was expert at denial and deception. [Cf. Drumheller: "Saddam had wanted nuclear weapons but was at least 18 months to two years away from nuclear weapons if they were able to get the fissile material to produce them."]
    • The same source said Iraq was stockpiling chemical weapons and that equipment to produce insecticides, under the oil-for-food program, had been diverted to covert chemical weapons production. [Cf. Drumheller: "There were chemical weapons that he described as gas, but they were distributed through the political leaders around the country. The army and military didn’t have access to them." Somewhat different, although both agree he had chemical weapons of some kind.]
    • The source said that
      • Iraq’s weapons of “last resort” were "mobile launchers armed with chemical weapons which would be fired at enemy forces and Israel." [No mention in Drumheller, could have just been omitted.]
      • Iraqi scientists were “dabbling” with biological weapons, with limited success,
      • But the quantities were not sufficient to constitute a real weapons program. [Cf. Drumheller: "the biological weapons that were described to us as basically a chemistry set-type of capability, that was all destroyed after the first Gulf War."]
    The 18–24-month period for acquisition, in particular, seems to make it obvious that this is the same guy. So I think it's fair to say that you're correct that this was a bit too late to make it into the report.
    The way I interpret Tenet's story is this:
    1. The Estimate was not written in a vacuum: there were 2 other reports in addition to the info that went into the Estimate.
    2. If one of the sources was Naji Sabri then Tenet leaves out the part about Iraq not having any WMD program. That makes me wonder what "aggressively and covertly developing such a weapon" means

    Tenet could not be sure in February 2005 (even admiting he might have suspected that) Drumheller would talk in April 2006. Still he didn't venture outside the "perimeter" October 2002 Estimate + what was known as a result of the invasion. He doesn't mention anything in between (and why should he if nobody is asking?). And he leaves out Sabri's "no WMD program running in Iraq" (if he inded refers to Sabri as one of the sources) hoping nobody would talk about that in the future. One year later however Drumheller goes on TV.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    But no one person is going to be a totally reliable intelligence source. Tenet refers to other sources, ones Drumheller didn't mention. Remember, Drumheller was only the head of CIA's European operations; if other major sources came through non-European channels, he might not have known about them, or at least not in detail. According to Tenet,
    A stream of reporting from a different sensitive source with access to senior Iraqi officials said he believed:
    • production of chemical and biological weapons was taking place,
    • that biological agents were easy to produce and to hide, and
    • prohibited chemicals were also being produced at dual-use facilities.
    Drumheller doesn't mention this.
    Of course in the intelligence business nothing is 100% beforehand. But Tenet's speach doesn't exonerate Dubya:
    1. Tenet speaks only about the October 2002 Estimate
    2. Tenet mentions nothing about what happened between October 2002 and the first day of the invasion in 2003
    3. And [u]if[/b] he mentions Naji Sabri's information he conveniently leaves out the "no WMD program is running in Iraq" part.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Serious attempts (and these attempts were very serious and well-funded, from what Tenet said) by someone like Saddam to obtain nuclear weapons are certainly cause for concern. Maybe not invasion-worthy, but that depends on how willing you are to go to war.
    And the willingness to go to war might have other motives than stopping a non-existant WMD program?
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Given that Bush's term would have ended about two years after he started the war, Bush didn't know if he'd have time to wait and see what came of the programs himself. Even if he'd have preferred to wait two or three years, he couldn't have. So issues of time are, I think, not by themselves sufficient evidence to conclusively demonstrate any particular intent.
    Should we assume that once Dubya's term ends the US ceases to exist? Because if it doesn't cease to exist then the next president can deal with Saddam. So what would be Dubya's reason for invading Iraq? "Even though there's no WMD program running I am still going to kill lots of Iraqis and some thousands of Americans in the process and I will spend hundreds of billions of taxpayers' money because if I don't invade now my term would end and I won't have this opportunity again"?!?
    [QUOTE=Simetrical]
    Let's clarify the question a bit. No one disputes that Saddam wanted WMDs. The question is whether it's plausible that Bush wasn't spinning things when he stressed WMDs as a major reason for going to war (he did mention other reasons as well, keep in mind, he just stressed WMDs the most). [/quoted]
    The problem is WMDs were making the diference between Iraq and countries like Sudan, Saudi Arabia or several other 3rd world countries run by dictators
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    That is, is it plausible that Saddam (who we agree is a homicidal maniac) having a serious nuclear weapons program could have been a significant factor in Bush's decision to go to war? I think it's plausible, so I don't think you can make assumptions to the contrary.
    Sadda is a homicidal maniac. We can safely assume that in his wet dreams he saw himself in contol of the Death Star. He would not have refused an arsenal of nukes, chemical and biological weapons if somebody would have offered those to him, ready made. However he did not have any real program for acquiring such weapons except for having the Iraqi scientists working on those programs on paper (or on desktop PCs if you prefer). And he had money stashed away from the UN to buy them from anybody willing to sell but nobody had offered to sell. Turns out Dubya knew all of that and yet ordered the invasion. That makes any assumptions about a hidden agenda quite reasonable, don't you think?
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    But not to state it as fact.
    Well, as I was saying before, facts we know so far look like Dubya knew in advance there won't be any WMDs to be found in Iraq and that there was no immediat threat to the US troops or to the countries of the region. And still he pressed on with the invasion. Quite natural under such circumstances that people assume there were other reasons for invading. Because the alternative would be Dubya is mentally unstable (alegedly he hears God talking to him) and the people arond him are either insane as well or are willing to take advantage of his insanity.

    Bottom line: based on the public evidence available so far we can either assume there were other motives for invading Iraq than those stated oficially or the White House is actually the White Nuthouse. The latter is quite unlikely if you ask me.
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    On one hand Drumheller said they have checked Sabri and he turned out to be credible. I assume CIA has methods to estimate the credibility of its sources. On the other hand I've explained why Sabri would have been a very unlikely "intoxicator".
    Looking back on what Sabri actually said, what he said isn't evidence that Bush wasn't plausibly acting with good intent, so I'm willing to assume for the purposes of this discussion that he was reliable. Do keep in mind, however, that the CIA had many different sources of information, and at least one other (according to Tenet) was pretty high up in Saddam's rankings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    The way I read Druheller's words is this:
    1. Saddam wanted nukes
    2. Iraq didn't have fissile material to produce them;
    3. There was no plausible date by which Iraq would acquire fissile material;
    4. Once Iraq would have acquired fissile material then it would take Saddam another 18 months to 2 years to make the nukes.
    And

    5. Iraq was seeking fissile materials.

    It was uncertain when he would get them, yes, everyone agrees on that. Everyone also agrees that he was in fact seeking them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    2. If one of the sources was Naji Sabri then Tenet leaves out the part about Iraq not having any WMD program.
    Or else, after two and a half years, Drumheller is misremembering some of the details—remembering the chemical weapons as being somewhat less of a threat than Sabri said they were. That's really the only difference between the two accounts, and the similarities beyond that are too striking to be coincidental: no serious biological-weapons program, seeking nukes, one and a half to two years to nuclear weapons after acquiring fissile material. It's not plausible that they're referring to different information sources.

    Human memory is a very fallible thing. Drumheller was interviewed the year after he retired; he can't have prepared his statements from actual documents. Tenet had access to the original reports when drafting his speech. And what's more, Drumheller was speaking spontaneously, whereas Tenet had time to think about his exact wording and make sure it was precise. If no deliberate deception is involved on anyone's part, which is probably the safest guess (a much higher percentage of statements are mistaken than are lies), Tenet's account is much more reliable.

    Furthermore, you're neglecting the possibility that other sources contradicted Sabri to some extent. Sabri may also have been working from incomplete information. Drumheller mentions no one other than Sabri, Tenet mentions many sources.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Sabri's "no WMD program running in Iraq"
    Sabri never said there were no WMD programs running in Iraq. He said there was a nuclear program (whose main goal at the time was, of course, to obtain fissile material), and said there were some chemical weapons as well (Drumheller's statement that "they were distributed through the political leaders around the country. The army and military didn’t have access to them" is fairly perplexing, and it's unclear whether he meant that they couldn't conceivably have access to them or just didn't have them on hand, but he did express some surprise at their not showing up after the war, so the quantities were presumably nontrivial). If you would like to call seeking nuclear weapons "not having a WMD program", that's your spin or Drumheller's, not necessarily Sabri's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    And the willingness to go to war might have other motives than stopping a non-existant WMD program?
    Leaving aside the "non-existent" part, of course there could be other motives. WMDs might not have been a motive at all, they might have been a minor motive, they might have been a major motive. We don't know, that's all I'm saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Should we assume that once Dubya's term ends the US ceases to exist? Because if it doesn't cease to exist then the next president can deal with Saddam.
    Assuming he's willing. Whoever he is. Clinton wasn't willing to invade, and neither was George Sr. If I sincerely thought Saddam had to be deposed, I wouldn't have left it up to my unknown successor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    The problem is WMDs were making the diference between Iraq and countries like Sudan, Saudi Arabia or several other 3rd world countries run by dictators
    From what he said, maybe, maybe not. Certainly Iraq had unusually abysmal public approval even for a dictator, and would thus be more welcoming of an invasion (a fairly solid majority to this day prefer the invasion to Saddam, although they would have much preferred it if they could have won their independence without foreign help; support for an invasion would have been far lower in a less malevolent dictatorship such as Iran or Saudi Arabia); Iraq had a higher base level of education and wealth than countries such as Sudan; and its military was nowhere near as formidable as that of North Korea or China.

    But this is, in fact, irrelevant to the main point, which is whether it's plausible WMDs could have been a major (or at least significant) part of Bush's reasoning in going to war with Iraq.
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Sabri never said there were no WMD programs running in Iraq. He said there was a nuclear program (whose main goal at the time was, of course, to obtain fissile material), and said there were some chemical weapons as well (Drumheller's statement that "they were distributed through the political leaders around the country. The army and military didn’t have access to them" is fairly perplexing, and it's unclear whether he meant that they couldn't conceivably have access to them or just didn't have them on hand, but he did express some surprise at their not showing up after the war, so the quantities were presumably nontrivial).
    In Romania before the 1989 Revolution there were 2 urban myths running:
    1. That Ceausescu was secretly working on a nuclear program;
    2. That Romania owned a laser super-weapon and that was what was preventing us from being invaded by the Soviet Union.
    Both myths had initiated from distant facts:
    1. There was a small experimental nuclear reactor working in the country since the '70s. It was of course used for producing Cobalt isothopes for medical applications and the IAEA had inspected it, but typical for the communist paranoia, it was a "top secret" information for the Romanian citizens;
    2. Romania was the 3rd country in the world to build a laser, only month after the US and the Soviet scientists had proven the concept is not just a fancy consequence of quantum theory. Romanians were proud to be ahead of countries like UK, France or Western Germany and the communist propaganda made full use of this achievement. Soon the military found what is nowadays the most trivial of applications - laser range finders and fire control. In 1968 when the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia and Romania refused to take part in the operation the Red Army was also concentrated at the Romanian border. Some overzealous Soviet commanders probed the Romanian defenses and on that occasion the elite units of the Romanian army used the laser-based fire control systems on live targets. Irrspective of the outcome of those border skirmishes the USSR decided that "liberating" Romania was not worth the trouble but the "secret laser weapons" which scared the Russians made it into the mythology.

    To me the stockpiled chemical weapons were part of the same family of myths: Saddam knew there was none left but in his twisted brain considered it might be a very good idea to let the Iraqis believe there were stocks still untouched by the enemy. The Nazis allowed the myth of Hitler's secret weapons to grow out of proportion, Ceausescu did the same with his "atomic bomb" and "super-laser" so practically nothing was new under the sun Unlike an active WMD program, which would have requird the cooperation of several ministries, such a "secret vault" of chemical weapons would have been known by only a very few. No wonder then even Sabri bough it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    If you would like to call seeking nuclear weapons "not having a WMD program", that's your spin or Drumheller's, not necessarily Sabri's.
    Well, saying "Saddam would purchase fissible material from whoever would sell him" is not really talking about a WMD program, is it? What about the facilities for enriching the fissible material and for assembling the bomb. Making a nuke is not exactly easy even when you have the right material - it took India and Pakistan quite a while till they developed theirs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Leaving aside the "non-existent" part, of course there could be other motives. WMDs might not have been a motive at all, they might have been a minor motive, they might have been a major motive. We don't know, that's all I'm saying.
    The problem is WMDs were the key selling point of the invasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Assuming he's willing. Whoever he is. Clinton wasn't willing to invade, and neither was George Sr. If I sincerely thought Saddam had to be deposed, I wouldn't have left it up to my unknown successor.
    Well, here's the thing: if Saddam had to be deposed just for being a homicidal maniac dictator then there are other corners of the world still in need of an International Cleanning Service. But then why mention WMDs and support fo the international terrorism among the reasons?
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    From what he said, maybe, maybe not. Certainly Iraq had unusually abysmal public approval even for a dictator, and would thus be more welcoming of an invasion (a fairly solid majority to this day prefer the invasion to Saddam, although they would have much preferred it if they could have won their independence without foreign help; support for an invasion would have been far lower in a less malevolent dictatorship such as Iran or Saudi Arabia); Iraq had a higher base level of education and wealth than countries such as Sudan; and its military was nowhere near as formidable as that of North Korea or China.
    Well yes, and it had oil
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    But this is, in fact, irrelevant to the main point, which is whether it's plausible WMDs could have been a major (or at least significant) part of Bush's reasoning in going to war with Iraq.
    And what we know so far makes a lot of prople assume Dubya knew very well about the truth abot those WMDs.
    Last edited by Dromikaites; May 28, 2006 at 06:36 PM.
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    To me the stockpiled chemical weapons were part of the same family of myths: Saddam knew there was none left but in his twisted brain considered it might be a very good idea to let the Iraqis believe there were stocks still untouched by the enemy.
    That's what a lot of intelligence people think now, IIRC. Saddam lied to his advisers and generals and so forth, telling them he had WMDs when he didn't. Which, of course, contaminated our human sources of evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Well, saying "Saddam would purchase fissible material from whoever would sell him" is not really talking about a WMD program, is it?
    It's a WMD program, just in a preliminary stage. But really, there's no point in bickering over semantics: it's enough to say he was seeking nukes, and was some time away from attaining them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    The problem is WMDs were the key selling point of the invasion.
    Why is that a problem with respect to the assertion "It is plausible that WMDs were a significant factor in Bush's decision to go to war with Iraq"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    And what we know so far makes a lot of prople assume Dubya knew very well about the truth abot those WMDs.
    You have yet to say anything convincing in that regard. You rely on Drumheller's word against Tenet's, neglect the possibility that by "WMDs" Bush was referring to the attempts to attain nuclear weapons, and ignore the possibility that Sabri's evidence against a strong chemical-weapons program (if, in fact, he gave such evidence, i.e. Drumheller is to be believed over Tenet) was outweighed by other evidence.
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    That's what a lot of intelligence people think now, IIRC. Saddam lied to his advisers and generals and so forth, telling them he had WMDs when he didn't. Which, of course, contaminated our human sources of evidence.
    We agree on this one. However, read below...
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    It's a WMD program, just in a preliminary stage. But really, there's no point in bickering over semantics: it's enough to say he was seeking nukes, and was some time away from attaining them.
    Most likely he was seeking nukes and most likely he was at least one or two years away from building them once he had set his hands on the raw materials. Getting the raw materials was the most dificult part of the operation because there is only a handful of countries which have that stuff and a lot of prople are watching to whom they sell it. And it's not like a smuggled crate of yellowcake would be enough for the task. It's hard not to compare Saddam's "nuclear program" to North Korea's and ask why wasn't North Korea attacked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    Why is that a problem with respect to the assertion "It is plausible that WMDs were a significant factor in Bush's decision to go to war with Iraq"?
    It is a problem if he knew there was actually no real WMD program. Let's not forget Tenet does say CIA Estimate didn't mention any threat for the US troops in the area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Simetrical
    You have yet to say anything convincing in that regard. You rely on Drumheller's word against Tenet's, neglect the possibility that by "WMDs" Bush was referring to the attempts to attain nuclear weapons, and ignore the possibility that Sabri's evidence against a strong chemical-weapons program (if, in fact, he gave such evidence, i.e. Drumheller is to be believed over Tenet) was outweighed by other evidence.
    First of all I always said Tenet and Drumheller do not contracdict each other. That's the beauty of the situation. Tenet is simply silent about parts of Naji Sabri's story which would paint a completly diferent story. He talks about the October 2002 Estimate, about two other sources not included in that Estimate (and the details he gives make Sabri one very likely source) and then he jumps directly to the post-invasion time. In no circumstance he would be accused of lieing, now would we be forced to chose Drumheller over Tenet.

    Second if when mentioning WMD programs Bush was actually mtalking about Saddam's desire for owning such weapons without mobilising the Iraqi industry in any significant way then here's another hypotetical situation that might help you understand my point of view.

    Say CIA knew for fact that Saddam's sexual fantasy was to hump American 4 yo boys. CIA had Saddam on tape on the issue, several times. In addition to that Saddam was intercepted downloading paedophile videos made in USA. In US and in many civilised countries such behavior would result in an immediate arrest. The question is: would the invasion of Iraq be justified by Saddam's abnormal sexual preferences? After all he would have been a potential sexual predator with a well documented motivation (his IP logs and tapes) and lots of money to buy American 4 yo boys from whoever would sell them to him...

    Now let's alter the same situation a little bit. There are lots of official videos in which Saddam hugs little children who give him flowers on the occasion of his visits in various cities of Iraq. He is also caught on a CNN tape caressing a little British boy during the "human shield" incident of 1991. Some people in Saddam's circle tell CIA that Saddam has secret rooms in his many palaces, where he has sex with young boys. Is that information enough to be presented to the world as one of the main reasons to invade Iraq?

    Ther is a big diference between wanting to do something and actually doing it. Many people think that just intentions without taking important steps towards achieving one's goal are not sufficient reason for starting a war. The people who think like that (and yes, this is their way of thinking, not necessarily Dubya's) look at the information publicly available on the issue and come to the conclusion no sane person would start a war in those circumstances. The same persons assume Dubya is mentaly sane therefore they suspect he had other reasons for the attack. They see that the French, German and Russian companies which had contracts in Iraq prior to the invasion lost those contracts. They also see many companies associated with people from Dubya's entourage got many of those contracts and many others that didn't exist before (like the defense contractors who probably are quite happy the cost of the war so far exceded 280 billion US dollars). The fact the invasion of Iraq is such a good business for people around Bush while the military and political reasons for invasion were almost non-existent makes some of us quite suspicious about the true reasons behind the war. But of course we might just be paranoid
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    Default Re: Alliance Balancing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    It's hard not to compare Saddam's "nuclear program" to North Korea's and ask why wasn't North Korea attacked.
    Because North Korea has a tremendously formidable military, has huge arrays of conventional weapons pointed at South Korea 24/7, and is locked down so tightly that it's entirely possible that a large majority of its residents would believe that Americans were evil and would have to be resisted at all costs. Iraq's military was pathetic compared to ours, it wasn't a threat to anyone during an invasion beyond the chance of a handful of Scud missiles, and its inhabitants generally supported an invasion (although not terribly strongly). The last point is a key one, which makes certain other obvious cases (such as Iran) difficult as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Let's not forget Tenet does say CIA Estimate didn't mention any threat for the US troops in the area.
    No, because a) some programs (especially nuclear) hadn't yet produced tangible results, and b) chemical weapons are typically ineffective against "hardened" targets such as soldiers, who are equipped to resist them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Tenet is simply silent about parts of Naji Sabri's story which would paint a completly diferent story.
    As I see it, he relates roughly everything Drumheller did. I don't notice any factual omissions, just a difference in how it's summarized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Say CIA knew for fact that Saddam's sexual fantasy was to hump American 4 yo boys. CIA had Saddam on tape on the issue, several times. In addition to that Saddam was intercepted downloading paedophile videos made in USA. In US and in many civilised countries such behavior would result in an immediate arrest. The question is: would the invasion of Iraq be justified by Saddam's abnormal sexual preferences?
    Clearly not. Pedophilia is not nearly such a danger to the world at large as possession of nuclear weapons is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    Ther is a big diference between wanting to do something and actually doing it.
    There is very little difference between attempting to do something and actually doing it. Some legal scholars have advocated attempt of a crime carrying the same penalties as completion. In practice, it doesn't, but it still tends to carry pretty harsh punishments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dromikaites
    They see that the French, German and Russian companies which had contracts in Iraq prior to the invasion lost those contracts. They also see many companies associated with people from Dubya's entourage got many of those contracts and many others that didn't exist before (like the defense contractors who probably are quite happy the cost of the war so far exceded 280 billion US dollars).
    Financial connections related to Bush are fairly shaky that I've seen. Cheney owns Halliburton stock, yes, but according to Wikipedia citing the nonpartisan factcheck.org, he had it arranged so that he couldn't benefit from its fortunes. What other conflicts of interest are there?
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