Comments on 3.6.13

**Germanicus75** · May 10, 2006, 04:20 AM

Hi DimeBag and Zarax!

I'm playing the latest version of this mod as the Britons and really enjoying it :-) The Britons are not playable in RTR - which I played most of the time until recently - and as a Brit myself, it's great to be able to play them.

I haven't yet tried the Greeks on 3.6.13, which is largely what your mod is all about of course.

Some pluses I especially like about your mod:

+ no Briton province on the Continent - this simply cannot be justified or defended yet occurs in vanilla and a number of mods
+ unifed Rome - also much more realistic
+ great-looking Greek and Hellenic skins

I turned on fatigue in my games.

now a few suggestions for future versions:

- could you please include the version number in the XGM loading screen - then we can be sure which version we are using. It's nice and acts as a comforting feature. I think most of the major mods do this now?
- fantasy units - Druids I can accept in small numbers and mainly as chanters, but head-hurlers, screeching women, arcanii etc. for me is bit over the line and I'd love to see these kinds of units removed
- many mods also remove peasants - with some justification
- biggest suggestion - units rout too quickly or get unnerved too easily. This is very noticeable compared to RTR, where they upped the morale of all units to increase the battle time. In XGM, head-on clashes of battle lines tend to last less time, consequently the battles can be a bit less fun. Could you think about upping the morale for most (all?) units to make the battles last longer? In this connection too, I can see it's possible to terrorize the enemy before they have even reached you jusing warcries, chanting Druids and the mere presence of chariots. Of course, the game intends this, but at the moment, IMO it's a little too easy to merely field such an army and already you've half beaten the enemy before he even engages. Especially if his units are fatigued by the time they reach you. Would it also be poss to slightly tweak down the scare factor of warcries and "scary" units in the next version? Just an idea.

Big kudos to you guys DimeBag and Zarax. Your mod is granted a little smaller than some of the other major mods, but what you do you do excellently well. Plus I never yet had a CTD on your mod, which I've had on all others I think. Although your mod is updated frequently (a plus point), thanks to the mod-switching mechanism, when you update your mod, it doesn't require a new install of RTW or some other fiddly process that overwrites essential game files and could lead to CTDs. Your installs are guaranteed clean. Plus you don't need a whole new copy of RTW for your mod. The updates to your mod are regular, efficient and the Readme for this mod is not only full, *organized* and well-researched, but attractive and compelling too. Moreover, this forum for your mod is organized and disciplined and very player-friendly (you guys are more approachable than many modding teams ;-). And you listen to your fans - I asked for slower battlemap speeds, you did it! - I asked for slower projectile speeds, you did it! I don't know of another mod forum which is so pleasant and easy to interact with, and also so easy to locate and obtain organized information from. Many other mod forums have info and tips sprawling about all over the place.
You've really given full consideration to and worked hard on making your mod and this forum efficient, organized and pleasant/convenient to use. For me, these are very important features, especially when there are so many possible RTW mods out there to choose from.

In short, you guys rock, and I look forward to your future work :-)

Cheers, Germanicus91

**Zarax** · May 10, 2006, 05:57 AM

Hi, thank you very much for the praise!
And about your questions:

Originally Posted by Germanicus91

+ no Briton province on the Continent - this simply cannot be justified or defended yet occurs in vanilla and a number of mods

I fear that you might not really be pleased by XGM4, one of the planned things is to remove certain factions to make way for rebel factions and unfortunately the britons are on top of the list after the two extra roman factions...
We will see if it will be possible to compensate this somehow...

now a few suggestions for future versions:

- could you please include the version number in the XGM loading screen - then we can be sure which version we are using. It's nice and acts as a comforting feature. I think most of the major mods do this now?

DBH will be able to answer on that, for now you can find a file called xgmversion.txt inside your XGM folder.

- fantasy units - Druids I can accept in small numbers and mainly as chanters, but head-hurlers, screeching women, arcanii etc. for me is bit over the line and I'd love to see these kinds of units removed

We're gradually removing them from the game, you should see less purely fantasy units in the future.

- many mods also remove peasants - with some justification

I have mixed feelings about this...
Peasants are useless in battle but are good for a few things like:

- Cheap garrison troops (but it will be nerfed in the future by the is_peasant attribute)

- Population replacement (where you need lots of large and cheap units for the purpose)

What I might think about proposing is to nerf them totally (like all stats to 1) and keep them only for population replacement.

- biggest suggestion - units rout too quickly or get unnerved too easily. This is very noticeable compared to RTR, where they upped the morale of all units to increase the battle time. In XGM, head-on clashes of battle lines tend to last less time, consequently the battles can be a bit less fun. Could you think about upping the morale for most (all?) units to make the battles last longer? In this connection too, I can see it's possible to terrorize the enemy before they have even reached you jusing warcries, chanting Druids and the mere presence of chariots. Of course, the game intends this, but at the moment, IMO it's a little too easy to merely field such an army and already you've half beaten the enemy before he even engages. Especially if his units are fatigued by the time they reach you. Would it also be poss to slightly tweak down the scare factor of warcries and "scary" units in the next version? Just an idea.

Morale has already been raised, in some cases even too much imho as unlike you i'm seeing too many heroes on the field of battle...
We might reduce letality a bit in order to make longer battles though.

**DimeBagHo** · May 10, 2006, 06:18 AM

Thanks for the feedback Germanicus91.

-Briton will still be around in the first beta for XGM 4 so enjoy it while it lasts.The Britons are destined to become Greco-Bactrians.

-I thought I had already removed screeching women. Are they still around? Head hurlers will probably disappear with the Britons. Arcanii will probably go. Haven't made up my mind about Druids yet.

-The problem with adding the version number to the loading screen is that the loading screen is a large file and it would make the patches a lot bigger (too big to post here in the forum). Like Zarax said, you cen see the version number in xgm/data/xgmversion.txt if you need to check.

-Morale is very hard to balance to everyone's taste. I do want regular units to rout if they take too many casualties, because it is hard to employ realistic tactics if every man fights to the death. But if you see insta-routs let me know the details (units, difficulty, etc) and i will see what i can do.

**Hippias** · May 10, 2006, 06:26 AM

Hello

First post here and I just want to second what Germanicus said about what a grand mod this is. The ease of using the mod switcher is what first attracted me, but the mod itself is also just what I wanted, and what vanilla RTW could/should have been straight out of the box.

Although a Brit myself I can appreciate why they would be an obvious choice to make way for someone else, and the Bactrians would be a great addition. As Briton was not an expanding power during this period, does this mean that other similar factions, especially Iberia/Dacia/Numidia are on their way out? If so I might play them while I have the chance?

**Zarax** · May 10, 2006, 06:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hippias

Hello

First post here and I just want to second what Germanicus said about what a grand mod this is. The ease of using the mod switcher is what first attracted me, but the mod itself is also just what I wanted, and what vanilla RTW could/should have been straight out of the box.

Although a Brit myself I can appreciate why they would be an obvious choice to make way for someone else, and the Bactrians would be a great addition. As Briton was not an expanding power during this period, does this mean that other similar factions, especially Iberia/Dacia/Numidia are on their way out? If so I might play them while I have the chance?

Dacia and numidia are likely to go, Iberia is also quite likely...

**DimeBagHo** · May 10, 2006, 06:49 AM

Numidia will be used for Carthaginian rebels. The faction might not change much but it will become unplayable (due to CTDs that result from playing a shadowing faction). Dacia will be used for the Ptolemaic rebels. Iberia might get used for another rebel faction, but it has a more interesting unit roster than the other factions that are getting the chop, so I am more reluctant to get rid of it.

**Zarax** · May 10, 2006, 06:51 AM

Well, it won't CTD but "just" give you a game over screen if the shadowed faction is killed as in case of numidia they would become the carthaginians...

**DimeBagHo** · May 10, 2006, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Zarax

Well, it won't CTD but "just" give you a game over screen if the shadowed faction is killed as in case of numidia they would become the carthaginians...

Oh, that's not so bad I guess. At some point it might be worthwhile to make some of the rebel factions playable, especially if we can fool the game into playing a victory message when the player over-comes the parent faction.

**Juus** · May 10, 2006, 07:00 AM

Was wondering why not get rid of a faction like Dacia? Its fairly central, and this would allow the Rebels to control much much of the Baltics surrounded by Germania, Gaul, the Romans, and the Greek factions. If theyre all they way up in Britain, they would tend to get lost and forgotten, don't you think?

Also, on Barbarian factions.. I agree with Germanicus91 that they have far too many fantasy units. Why not allow them to train larger number within their units? e.g. instead of 120 Warband, why not 150? Barbarians have massive population growth anyway, and given a bit more morale their numbers can be intimidating to anyone playing as Romans - moreover, it then negates the need for screeching women and head hurlers, eh?

Didn't the Romans beat them through good tactics and professional armies.

Oh, and you can't get rid of Iberia!

**Zarax** · May 10, 2006, 07:05 AM

In the new economic build barbarians get a 20% discount on all their units, meaning that they will always be able to field more troops than you...
In game terms it means that taking out a faction like the gauls will take much longer as they will be able to wear you down through sheer numbers, meaning that a blitz is a sure way to disaster against them...

**Zarax** · May 10, 2006, 07:09 AM

Originally Posted by DimeBagHo

Oh, that's not so bad I guess. At some point it might be worthwhile to make some of the rebel factions playable, especially if we can fool the game into playing a victory message when the player over-comes the parent faction.

I can foresee many greco-baktrians fans and a few ICS ones if they become playable...

**Hippias** · May 10, 2006, 08:24 AM

Hello

I would be in favour of keeping druids in for the Gauls. I hated the dogs, pigs, screeching french maids and arcani, but thought the druids close enough to possible reality to stay in.

Plus I think they add to the feel of the faction without being as in your face as the other 'fantasy' units, and this is not meant to be an ultra reality mod?

Also, as the Britons are going to be out, please can the Gauls have the javelin chariots. They did, after all, actually use them at Telamon in 225BC and for all we know would have used them for many years after that, especially as their close cousins in Briton were using them 200 years later.

Thanks

**Zarax** · May 10, 2006, 08:27 AM

We might make british chariots an AOR unit to compensate the britons departure, should be easy enough...

**Germanicus75** · May 10, 2006, 08:34 AM

Hi Zarax, DimeBag and everyone,

Thanks for your comments and feedback.

@DimeBag - I'm pretty sure there were a few screeching women in an army of Germans I just faced.

I'm *strongly* against removing Iberia from the faction list.

I agree with Juus that Barb units should be larger and cheaper. Barbs should breed like rabbits, especially the Gauls.

I agree with Hippias that all fantasy units except for Druids should go. I think Druids are OK in units with small numbers and their combat stats should be fairly weak. They should be used mainly to scare the enemy with their chanting.

Just a few more Euro cents from me :-)

Cheers! Germanicus91

**Hippias** · May 11, 2006, 10:36 AM

Just a few ideas for the barbarian factions for XGM4

- German/Gaul etc spear warbands need a bit of variety - could they each have a different special ability e.g. shieldwall (rather than phalanx like the germans have), warcry or schiltron + could some or all of them have a couple of javelins as well as the spear (like the levy spearmen in BI)

- Naked Fanatics - historically I think only the Celts (Gauls) and Celt-Iberians used them. Could you have them as an AOR in Southern France/Northern Spain (they were a sort of professional mercenary cult I believe). Give them 2 HP as i believe they were berserker types.

Javelin chariots - as mentioned in previous post, Gauls and Briton rebels and/or AOR (as Zarax suggested) in Northern France & Britain.

Allow the german chosen axman a throwing axe as well, like the Franks in BI - (straying a bit away from history here, but as they used it eventually perhaps they also could have done 200 BC?)

Iberian Bull Warriors - crossing the line to a fantasy unit here, would like them out but they do add a bit of variety to the Iberian rosta

**Germanicus75** · May 11, 2006, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Hippias

Just a few ideas for the barbarian factions for XGM4

- German/Gaul etc spear warbands need a bit of variety - could they each have a different special ability e.g. shieldwall (rather than phalanx like the germans have), warcry or schiltron + could some or all of them have a couple of javelins as well as the spear (like the levy spearmen in BI)

- Naked Fanatics - historically I think only the Celts (Gauls) and Celt-Iberians used them. Could you have them as an AOR in Southern France/Northern Spain (they were a sort of professional mercenary cult I believe). Give them 2 HP as i believe they were berserker types.

Javelin chariots - as mentioned in previous post, Gauls and Briton rebels and/or AOR (as Zarax suggested) in Northern France & Britain.

Allow the german chosen axman a throwing axe as well, like the Franks in BI - (straying a bit away from history here, but as they used it eventually perhaps they also could have done 200 BC?)

Iberian Bull Warriors - crossing the line to a fantasy unit here, would like them out but they do add a bit of variety to the Iberian rosta

I hate to sound like a yes-man, but I agree with everything Hippias says, especially re. the warbands, axemen and Bull warriors! :original:

Cheers, Germanicus91

**Zarax** · May 11, 2006, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by Hippias

Just a few ideas for the barbarian factions for XGM4

- German/Gaul etc spear warbands need a bit of variety - could they each have a different special ability e.g. shieldwall (rather than phalanx like the germans have), warcry or schiltron + could some or all of them have a couple of javelins as well as the spear (like the levy spearmen in BI)

Was thinking about it, maybe we'll enable late warbands to have some kind of special ability...

- Naked Fanatics - historically I think only the Celts (Gauls) and Celt-Iberians used them. Could you have them as an AOR in Southern France/Northern Spain (they were a sort of professional mercenary cult I believe). Give them 2 HP as i believe they were berserker types.

We'll see, I don't have a well defined role in mind for them...

Javelin chariots - as mentioned in previous post, Gauls and Briton rebels and/or AOR (as Zarax suggested) in Northern France & Britain.

That would be Britain only as they would replace somehow the briton faction... Giving a too ample AOR would unbalance the game...

Allow the german chosen axman a throwing axe as well, like the Franks in BI - (straying a bit away from history here, but as they used it eventually perhaps they also could have done 200 BC?)

We might create a post marian unit for that, I believe that axe throwers were first reported around 100BC but I don't have any source at hand... Any historical research on it would be nice.

Iberian Bull Warriors - crossing the line to a fantasy unit here, would like them out but they do add a bit of variety to the Iberian rosta

Iberians need an elite heavy inf so they're going to stay.

**Hippias** · May 11, 2006, 11:23 AM

Fair enough. No problem with the Bull Warriors stats, just the silly name and novelty helmet

**Zarax** · May 11, 2006, 11:24 AM

We might change them a bit, I'll have a look at what EB does for them...

**Venom** · May 11, 2006, 01:51 PM

Although I can't think of much criticism for XGM, I'll have to go with the original poster on most of this, such as dropping peasants and fantasy units. All the dumb stuff like Head Hurlers , Screeching Women, Incendiary Pigs, etc has just got to go. Also, I agree that enemy morale could improve, although it's definitely better than vanilla as it is. I'm indifferent on removing the Britons though; I've never played as them.