[Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

[Polycarpe]

Alright gentlemen, here's the list of units Scotland would have in his arsenal, using the Anglo-Norman names for them.

Huscherles --» General's Bodyguard.
Chevalers d’Escoce --» Scottish Knights
Serjeants --» Mounted Sergeants
Serjeants Deschivache --» Dismounted Sergeants
Chevacherie des Bordures --» Border Horsemen
Geldes de Gisarme --» Polearm Militia
Gaisgeach na Gallobha --» Warriors of Galloway
Telderons de Brameam --» Scots Pikemen
Archers d'Ettrick --» Ettrick Archers
Geldons de Schiltrom --» Schiltrom Spearmen
Ribaulds --» Rabbles

[Dearg Doom]

Nice roster

[Casual Tactician]

Yep, looks good. I hope you can find someone that can figure out the Gaelic terms (or whatever terms the Scots used) for those units.

What about the kilts?! I can remember reading somewhere in some other thread (not WOTW), that the Scots didn't use the kilts we know nowadays until the 17th century or so. Apparently they wore 'proto-kilts' or 'great kilts' that were more like short tartan togas or something like that.


Here's what I mean:
http://www.your-kilt.com/history-of-the-kilt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt

[Emperor of Hell]

You're right about the kilts. None of our units will have them

[Ritterbruder44]

You're right about the kilts. None of our units will have them

hoorayz! it will probably need some getting used to, but it'll do good for the historical parts of our brain

damn u Mel Gibson!

[Polycarpe]

Yep, looks good. I hope you can find someone that can figure out the Gaelic terms (or whatever terms the Scots used) for those units.

What about the kilts?! I can remember reading somewhere in some other thread (not WOTW), that the Scots didn't use the kilts we know nowadays until the 17th century or so. Apparently they wore 'proto-kilts' or 'great kilts' that were more like short tartan togas or something like that.


Here's what I mean:
http://www.your-kilt.com/history-of-the-kilt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt

Lowland Scotland, although Scottish Gaelic was still present, the Anglo-Norman was the language used by the nobles (as England) however,as the Lordship of the Isles, the Highlands was more prone Gaelic, therefore, Scotland will get access to a quite varied roster, which will be their strength and weakness at the same time.

No worries, they will be no kilts at all for Lowlands, most of them will look like these men in this picture

Take note of the red knight at the left, this is again William Wallace, we have two other pictures that give excellent references upon how Wallace looked but it's again the copyrights of Osprey to post the pictures but where mostly are the same as this picture.

[Dearg Doom]

The closest your going to get to kilts is the irish léine

[thorakites]

Take note of the red knight at the left, this is again William Wallace, we have two other pictures that give excellent references upon how Wallace looked but it's again the copyrights of Osprey to post the pictures but where mostly are the same as this picture.

Hah, well... You posted a skinned model of WiWa already: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post11178403

The closest your going to get to kilts is the irish léine

What's the leine?

[Polycarpe]

Hah, well... You posted a skinned model of WiWa already: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post11178403

Yep correct but it was to point out a reference we used to make Wallace.

What's the leine?

The Leine Croine was a Gaelic padded coat and most of the time yellow. The Irish and the Highlanders and Scots were dying more the clothes by using urine, to make the yellow colour even more deep.

[Ngugi]

Urine isa most common classic technique. As a result of that for example the italian colorers, who made the red fabrics that brought great wealth, was considered lowly, a despised profession. Because simply of the smell, natural but in interesting big contrast to other professions/artisans that created same kind of wealth, such as jewlers.

[Polycarpe]

Alright, here's a brief review on the recruitment of Scotland

Compared to his nemesis England, Scotland was one step down in almost any domains; equipment quality, cavalry power, professionalism, almost everything however how come Scotland succeed to hold against this all mighty kingdom without having their resources??

At the beginning, Scotland armies are made of conscripted/raised levies with having a small nucleus of professional soldiers of mercenary background and a last support of heavy cavalry from the nobles (coming from French and English backgrounds notably). The strength of their levies reside the speed on the conscription and in their location and regions, as for example Scotland had summoned a reinforcement from Highlands, the Borders and Galloway (ferocious warriors indeed!) during the but at the same time, they were dependent on their regions.

Compared to England where each regions could provide professional men, Scotland would have a short supply of regulars and professional until the influence of France came to Scotland in the late 13th century. The feudalistic system was now quite implanted and more nobles and professional were raised in Scotland such a professional organization of Scots Pikemen raised by Robert the Bruce in the beginning of the 14th century.

In gameplay terms, Scotland will have a large unit pool for levies, not really having access to Men-at-Arms (Nobles' retinues) until 1290 at least. Each region will have more or less unrest caused by culture. Taking again the example of Highlands, Lowland Scotland have a Scoto-Norman culture while the Highlands was Scottish Gaelic, unless you want to eradicate the second culture, Scotland will get access to Highlanders/Hebrides units.

Several special units will be recruited by Scotland, the Ettrick bowmen from the Royal Ettrick Forest, the Border Horsemen from the Scottish Borders and the Gallovidian Warbands from Galloway. Those regions are key holds for this faction, losing them will greatly affect the recruitment capability and military power.

In the beginning of the campaign, mercenaries will be your friends for a good part of the campaign, since Scots knights were poorer and weaker than English ones (until later period), Scotland will have challenges against England and do not forget to have good relationship between the Lordship of the Isles and you along be aware of the Earldom of Orkney who can summon reinforcements from Norway.

[Dearg Doom]

wow sounds great!

[Hresvelgr]

Im afraid to say sir that they are irish troops not scottish, and there wearing the léine not tunics. The kilt was developed from the irish léine i believe
Oh and its saffron not yellow, you can tell an irish kilt from a scottish one because irish traditionaly dyed them saffron whilst the highlanders used tartan. There is irsh tartan but its more of a modern thing

An interesting thing I heard was this, that the Scottish Highlanders preferred to have saffron, but since it wasn't in the greatest supply saffron was typically used by men of rank, whereas most of the others would wear tartan, though apparently at this time the tartan more resembled American plaid than the modern Scottish tartan patterns (probably meaning it was simpler than the fancy patterns, and they certainly didn't restrict patterns based on clan at this time), and some enterprising Highlanders would use the dye method mentioned by Polycarpe to get that nice yellow color. That said, given that higher-ranking clansmen were represented disproportionately in armies compared to commoners (war was for gentlemen after all, though certainly by the medieval period this was less the case) it wouldn't be odd to have a very high number of guys in saffron-dyed (and messier dyes ) leines with their hardened cow-hide jackets marching off to war.

[Y Brenin]

This thread is great news! I'm thoroughly glad to see the Scots represented as the great mix of British cultures they were (and are) rather than a pack of Mel Gibsons.

[Celtichugs123]

Indeed! I too am loving the care and research going into this mod to represent a real Scotland and not just copy and pastes from the worst film to ever grace the World. (Check my Signature )

And by the way, may I ask how you intend to represent the Earldom of Orkney? Will it have it's own faction? Be part of the Kingdom of the Isles and Mann or be represented as the Kingdom of Norway? May I suggest you take their territory as far south as the Great Glen. Also, making the Viking-founded and important towns of Tingvallr (modern Dingwall), Vik (modern Wick) and Tounge. Along with keeping Orkney and Shetland retaining their Norse names? (Norðreyjar (Northern Isles, as opposed to the Suðreyar the Southern Isles/Hebridies). Orkney - Orkneyjar. Shetland - Hetlandensis)

Sorry if this information is elteswhere and I have missed it, but do you intend to represent historical sites in the Mod? If so for Scotland (as in the Geographical area) may I suggest such things as the Stones of Callanish, the Great Glenn (maybe? To represent it's importance in Saint Columbas converting the Kingdom of Fortriu?), Scone (Scoine). I could also think of many more!

Also, the importance of saffron is not quite true. Saffron was more important in Gaelic Ireland and later, and by some Gallowglasses. In Gaelic (in Ireland) society the brighter and more colours one had the higher ones status.

I'd also like to point out, as FYI point, that Scotland is only Gaelic by language and some aspect of it's culture. Not blood of ethnically.

P.s - Glad to see no kilts! Hope to see plaid though, just so happy there's no kilts!

[Polycarpe]

Indeed! I too am loving the care and research going into this mod to represent a real Scotland and not just copy and pastes from the worst film to ever grace the World. (Check my Signature )

Thanks mate, we promise there's no Braveheart thing inside this mod.

And by the way, may I ask how you intend to represent the Earldom of Orkney? Will it have it's own faction? Be part of the Kingdom of the Isles and Mann or be represented as the Kingdom of Norway? May I suggest you take their territory as far south as the Great Glen. Also, making the Viking-founded and important towns of Tingvallr (modern Dingwall), Vik (modern Wick) and Tounge. Along with keeping Orkney and Shetland retaining their Norse names? (Norðreyjar (Northern Isles, as opposed to the Suðreyar the Southern Isles/Hebridies). Orkney - Orkneyjar. Shetland - Hetlandensis)

The Earldom of Orkney will have his own faction and his roster will be based on Norwegian roster such as Stormenn, Leidangr and the like; Very strong infantry but no access to cavalry (except by mercs) and decreased recruitment capability (will requires "reinforcement" from the mother country to compensate). SonofPeverel had already planned all those regions for them and the map is progressing pretty well. Soon we will show something plus the next faction roster to design after Scotland is Orkney.

Sorry if this information is elteswhere and I have missed it, but do you intend to represent historical sites in the Mod? If so for Scotland (as in the Geographical area) may I suggest such things as the Stones of Callanish, the Great Glenn (maybe? To represent it's importance in Saint Columbas converting the Kingdom of Fortriu?), Scone (Scoine). I could also think of many more!

This may be good for "wonders", do you have some suggestions to give as bonus or the like? But yes we will try to represent important historical locations and buildings, the Tower of London
is also a good example for a special building.

Also, the importance of saffron is not quite true. Saffron was more important in Gaelic Ireland and later, and by some Gallowglasses. In Gaelic (in Ireland) society the brighter and more colours one had the higher ones status.

I'd also like to point out, as FYI point, that Scotland is only Gaelic by language and some aspect of it's culture. Not blood of ethnically.

P.s - Glad to see no kilts! Hope to see plaid though, just so happy there's no kilts!

For Highlands and Ireland, the Leine was quite popular and was dyed with urine mostly to make the colour deeper. For Lowland Scotland however, the Anglo-Norman culture was quite present there, much like the American culture affect the Canadian culture (by experience I can tell )

[Dearg Doom]

"For Highlands and Ireland, the Leine was quite popular and was dyed with urine mostly to make the colour deeper. For Lowland Scotland however, the Anglo-Norman culture was quite present there, much like the American culture affect the Canadian culture (by experience I can tell ) "
It's not just canada thats been affected