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Thread: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

  1. #21
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Alright gentlemen, here's the list of units Scotland would have in his arsenal, using the Anglo-Norman names for them.

    Huscherles --» General's Bodyguard.
    Chevalers d’Escoce --» Scottish Knights
    Serjeants --» Mounted Sergeants
    Serjeants Deschivache --» Dismounted Sergeants
    Chevacherie des Bordures --» Border Horsemen
    Geldes de Gisarme --» Polearm Militia
    Gaisgeach na Gallobha --» Warriors of Galloway
    Telderons de Brameam --» Scots Pikemen
    Archers d'Ettrick --» Ettrick Archers
    Geldons de Schiltrom --» Schiltrom Spearmen
    Ribaulds --» Rabbles
    Last edited by Polycarpe; March 19, 2012 at 09:00 AM.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Nice roster

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    Casual Tactician's Avatar Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Yep, looks good. I hope you can find someone that can figure out the Gaelic terms (or whatever terms the Scots used) for those units.

    What about the kilts?! I can remember reading somewhere in some other thread (not WOTW), that the Scots didn't use the kilts we know nowadays until the 17th century or so. Apparently they wore 'proto-kilts' or 'great kilts' that were more like short tartan togas or something like that.


    Here's what I mean:
    http://www.your-kilt.com/history-of-the-kilt.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt

  4. #24
    Emperor of Hell's Avatar SPA-NED 1-5
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    You're right about the kilts. None of our units will have them

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor of Hell View Post
    You're right about the kilts. None of our units will have them
    hoorayz! it will probably need some getting used to, but it'll do good for the historical parts of our brain

    damn u Mel Gibson!
    Quote Originally Posted by wyrda78 View Post
    Well maybe if there was a thread instructing people on how to mod there would be more modders.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Casual Tactician View Post
    Yep, looks good. I hope you can find someone that can figure out the Gaelic terms (or whatever terms the Scots used) for those units.

    What about the kilts?! I can remember reading somewhere in some other thread (not WOTW), that the Scots didn't use the kilts we know nowadays until the 17th century or so. Apparently they wore 'proto-kilts' or 'great kilts' that were more like short tartan togas or something like that.


    Here's what I mean:
    http://www.your-kilt.com/history-of-the-kilt.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_kilt
    Lowland Scotland, although Scottish Gaelic was still present, the Anglo-Norman was the language used by the nobles (as England) however,as the Lordship of the Isles, the Highlands was more prone Gaelic, therefore, Scotland will get access to a quite varied roster, which will be their strength and weakness at the same time.

    No worries, they will be no kilts at all for Lowlands, most of them will look like these men in this picture

    Take note of the red knight at the left, this is again William Wallace, we have two other pictures that give excellent references upon how Wallace looked but it's again the copyrights of Osprey to post the pictures but where mostly are the same as this picture.

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    Dearg Doom's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    The closest your going to get to kilts is the irish léine

  8. #28
    thorakites's Avatar Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Polycarpe View Post

    Take note of the red knight at the left, this is again William Wallace, we have two other pictures that give excellent references upon how Wallace looked but it's again the copyrights of Osprey to post the pictures but where mostly are the same as this picture.
    Hah, well... You posted a skinned model of WiWa already: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post11178403

    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    The closest your going to get to kilts is the irish léine
    What's the leine?

  9. #29
    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by thorakites View Post
    Hah, well... You posted a skinned model of WiWa already: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...3#post11178403
    Yep correct but it was to point out a reference we used to make Wallace.

    What's the leine?
    The Leine Croine was a Gaelic padded coat and most of the time yellow. The Irish and the Highlanders and Scots were dying more the clothes by using urine, to make the yellow colour even more deep.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Urine isa most common classic technique. As a result of that for example the italian colorers, who made the red fabrics that brought great wealth, was considered lowly, a despised profession. Because simply of the smell, natural but in interesting big contrast to other professions/artisans that created same kind of wealth, such as jewlers.
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Alright, here's a brief review on the recruitment of Scotland

    Compared to his nemesis England, Scotland was one step down in almost any domains; equipment quality, cavalry power, professionalism, almost everything however how come Scotland succeed to hold against this all mighty kingdom without having their resources??

    At the beginning, Scotland armies are made of conscripted/raised levies with having a small nucleus of professional soldiers of mercenary background and a last support of heavy cavalry from the nobles (coming from French and English backgrounds notably). The strength of their levies reside the speed on the conscription and in their location and regions, as for example Scotland had summoned a reinforcement from Highlands, the Borders and Galloway (ferocious warriors indeed!) during the but at the same time, they were dependent on their regions.

    Compared to England where each regions could provide professional men, Scotland would have a short supply of regulars and professional until the influence of France came to Scotland in the late 13th century. The feudalistic system was now quite implanted and more nobles and professional were raised in Scotland such a professional organization of Scots Pikemen raised by Robert the Bruce in the beginning of the 14th century.

    In gameplay terms, Scotland will have a large unit pool for levies, not really having access to Men-at-Arms (Nobles' retinues) until 1290 at least. Each region will have more or less unrest caused by culture. Taking again the example of Highlands, Lowland Scotland have a Scoto-Norman culture while the Highlands was Scottish Gaelic, unless you want to eradicate the second culture, Scotland will get access to Highlanders/Hebrides units.

    Several special units will be recruited by Scotland, the Ettrick bowmen from the Royal Ettrick Forest, the Border Horsemen from the Scottish Borders and the Gallovidian Warbands from Galloway. Those regions are key holds for this faction, losing them will greatly affect the recruitment capability and military power.

    In the beginning of the campaign, mercenaries will be your friends for a good part of the campaign, since Scots knights were poorer and weaker than English ones (until later period), Scotland will have challenges against England and do not forget to have good relationship between the Lordship of the Isles and you along be aware of the Earldom of Orkney who can summon reinforcements from Norway.

  12. #32
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    wow sounds great!

  13. #33
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Dearg Doom View Post
    Im afraid to say sir that they are irish troops not scottish, and there wearing the léine not tunics. The kilt was developed from the irish léine i believe
    Oh and its saffron not yellow, you can tell an irish kilt from a scottish one because irish traditionaly dyed them saffron whilst the highlanders used tartan. There is irsh tartan but its more of a modern thing
    An interesting thing I heard was this, that the Scottish Highlanders preferred to have saffron, but since it wasn't in the greatest supply saffron was typically used by men of rank, whereas most of the others would wear tartan, though apparently at this time the tartan more resembled American plaid than the modern Scottish tartan patterns (probably meaning it was simpler than the fancy patterns, and they certainly didn't restrict patterns based on clan at this time), and some enterprising Highlanders would use the dye method mentioned by Polycarpe to get that nice yellow color. That said, given that higher-ranking clansmen were represented disproportionately in armies compared to commoners (war was for gentlemen after all, though certainly by the medieval period this was less the case) it wouldn't be odd to have a very high number of guys in saffron-dyed (and messier dyes ) leines with their hardened cow-hide jackets marching off to war.
    I'm not crazy, I'm the only one who's not crazy!


  14. #34
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    This thread is great news! I'm thoroughly glad to see the Scots represented as the great mix of British cultures they were (and are) rather than a pack of Mel Gibsons.

  15. #35
    Celtichugs123's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Indeed! I too am loving the care and research going into this mod to represent a real Scotland and not just copy and pastes from the worst film to ever grace the World. (Check my Signature )

    And by the way, may I ask how you intend to represent the Earldom of Orkney? Will it have it's own faction? Be part of the Kingdom of the Isles and Mann or be represented as the Kingdom of Norway? May I suggest you take their territory as far south as the Great Glen. Also, making the Viking-founded and important towns of Tingvallr (modern Dingwall), Vik (modern Wick) and Tounge. Along with keeping Orkney and Shetland retaining their Norse names? (Norðreyjar (Northern Isles, as opposed to the Suðreyar the Southern Isles/Hebridies). Orkney - Orkneyjar. Shetland - Hetlandensis)

    Sorry if this information is elteswhere and I have missed it, but do you intend to represent historical sites in the Mod? If so for Scotland (as in the Geographical area) may I suggest such things as the Stones of Callanish, the Great Glenn (maybe? To represent it's importance in Saint Columbas converting the Kingdom of Fortriu?), Scone (Scoine). I could also think of many more!

    Also, the importance of saffron is not quite true. Saffron was more important in Gaelic Ireland and later, and by some Gallowglasses. In Gaelic (in Ireland) society the brighter and more colours one had the higher ones status.

    I'd also like to point out, as FYI point, that Scotland is only Gaelic by language and some aspect of it's culture. Not blood of ethnically.

    P.s - Glad to see no kilts! Hope to see plaid though, just so happy there's no kilts!
    Last edited by Celtichugs123; April 10, 2012 at 07:13 AM.

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtichugs123 View Post
    Indeed! I too am loving the care and research going into this mod to represent a real Scotland and not just copy and pastes from the worst film to ever grace the World. (Check my Signature )
    Thanks mate, we promise there's no Braveheart thing inside this mod.

    And by the way, may I ask how you intend to represent the Earldom of Orkney? Will it have it's own faction? Be part of the Kingdom of the Isles and Mann or be represented as the Kingdom of Norway? May I suggest you take their territory as far south as the Great Glen. Also, making the Viking-founded and important towns of Tingvallr (modern Dingwall), Vik (modern Wick) and Tounge. Along with keeping Orkney and Shetland retaining their Norse names? (Norðreyjar (Northern Isles, as opposed to the Suðreyar the Southern Isles/Hebridies). Orkney - Orkneyjar. Shetland - Hetlandensis)
    The Earldom of Orkney will have his own faction and his roster will be based on Norwegian roster such as Stormenn, Leidangr and the like; Very strong infantry but no access to cavalry (except by mercs) and decreased recruitment capability (will requires "reinforcement" from the mother country to compensate). SonofPeverel had already planned all those regions for them and the map is progressing pretty well. Soon we will show something plus the next faction roster to design after Scotland is Orkney.

    Sorry if this information is elteswhere and I have missed it, but do you intend to represent historical sites in the Mod? If so for Scotland (as in the Geographical area) may I suggest such things as the Stones of Callanish, the Great Glenn (maybe? To represent it's importance in Saint Columbas converting the Kingdom of Fortriu?), Scone (Scoine). I could also think of many more!
    This may be good for "wonders", do you have some suggestions to give as bonus or the like? But yes we will try to represent important historical locations and buildings, the Tower of London
    is also a good example for a special building.

    Also, the importance of saffron is not quite true. Saffron was more important in Gaelic Ireland and later, and by some Gallowglasses. In Gaelic (in Ireland) society the brighter and more colours one had the higher ones status.

    I'd also like to point out, as FYI point, that Scotland is only Gaelic by language and some aspect of it's culture. Not blood of ethnically.

    P.s - Glad to see no kilts! Hope to see plaid though, just so happy there's no kilts!
    For Highlands and Ireland, the Leine was quite popular and was dyed with urine mostly to make the colour deeper. For Lowland Scotland however, the Anglo-Norman culture was quite present there, much like the American culture affect the Canadian culture (by experience I can tell )

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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    "For Highlands and Ireland, the Leine was quite popular and was dyed with urine mostly to make the colour deeper. For Lowland Scotland however, the Anglo-Norman culture was quite present there, much like the American culture affect the Canadian culture (by experience I can tell ) "
    It's not just canada thats been affected

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    druzhina345's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Icon3 [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland - Scots on the Carlisle Charter, 1316AD

    Last edited by druzhina345; March 02, 2014 at 04:27 AM.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    The 'ribauld' dress isn't very detailed in the charter, however there are clearer depictions from the 1500s that seem to have similar dress. The Scottish or medieval leine was probably less of a nappy with cape and more of a pleated mini-skirt (similar to the Balkan/Hellenic dress) with a loose shirt with long arms that resembled a cloak, or possibly was a cloak that covered the upper body and was tucked into the belt at the midrift. It has been argued as the origin of Magnus Barefoot attire.



    Last edited by Hengest; September 07, 2013 at 10:50 AM.

  20. #40
    druzhina345's Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Icon3 Re: [Faction Research] Kingdom of Scotland

    Your 1st image is of Print 3 - Irish feast in Derricke's The Image of Irelande (1581)
    The 2nd image is Irish warriors, 'DRAVN AFTER THE QVICKE', early 16th century
    There is a 200+ year gap between the charter and these images, so these pictures of 16th century Irish can't tell us much about 14th century Scots.

    druzhina345
    Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers
    Last edited by druzhina345; March 02, 2014 at 04:31 AM.

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