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Thread: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

  1. #181

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    I haven't done a game on VH yet, but so far in my experience Realm Divide is a good challenge. Knowing it was coming I was able to prepare for it well enough to survive. I also used it to my advantage as I allowed my relations to lapse with some long-time vassals so I could seize their rich territories. Being vassals I had access so I just hid armies near their cities and waited for them to betray me so I could seize their land.

    I do have one question: If you become a weak faction (from losing provinces after Realm Divide) does Realm Divide ever stop? If you have 20 provinces but get busted down to 10 then the other clans shouldn't see you as a threat anymore.

  2. #182

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by SSJPabs View Post
    I do have one question: If you become a weak faction (from losing provinces after Realm Divide) does Realm Divide ever stop? If you have 20 provinces but get busted down to 10 then the other clans shouldn't see you as a threat anymore.
    It never stops and AI clans never get a RD on them, even if they have 30+ provinces.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    It never stops and AI clans never get a RD on them, even if they have 30+ provinces.
    Ah, that's where I have the problem with the mechanic. Maybe it's not possible to do that with the engine. Thanks for the answer.

  4. #184

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by robinzx View Post
    It has indeed.



    It happened in real life to a guy called Oda Nobunaga. You may have heard of him.

    http://www.samurai-archives.com/nobunaga.html - read 1570-73.

    After the defeat of the Rokkaku Nobunaga was at war with the Asai, Asakura, Ikko Ikki, Miyoshi, Takeda, Uesugi. After Honno-ji Hideyoshi fought the Akechi, Shibata, Tokugawa, Chosokabe, Shimazu and Hojo. Both lists are about as many if not more enemies as you'd expect to fight under RD in the game. Just because everyone declares war on you it doesn't mean all of them will be sending troops against you.



    False. RD happens gradually. There is an initial penalty which increases turn by turn.



    They are putting down their quarrels to restore the status quo, which you are endangering. Nothing special or abnormal about that really.



    I don't use darthmod, but most times steadfast allies stay on your side for a while, especially if you butter them up, pay tribute, arrange marriages, the like. If they agree to join your battles when everyone declares war on you they get diplomatic bonuses in your favour.



    It also has historical basis in the case of Japan. Convenient - maybe. Cheap - No.



    False again. It represents everyone hating Nobuaga and Hideyoshi by association in the period from Honno-ji to the latter's unification. Sekigahara didn't happen until 1600, or right at the end of the campaign date.



    I disagree, but then it's just my opinion against yours. Oh wait I have history on my side.

    I don't disagree the game could have represented the realm divide dynamic better. I've posted several times in the past you should be able to choose steadfast allies as coalition partners amongst other things. That said calling it ruining the game is a bit rich.



    RD is in RotS too.



    History 1. You 0.



    Radious has several mods that dilute or remove RD.

    * * *

    My bottom line is this - we all know it's there. It's far from insurmountable as a gameplay mechanism, and with some planning ahead (save up money, build up troops, weaken clans through subterfuge, learn how to play siege defence, etc) before your clan fame hits legendary you can prepare quite adequately for all of Japan to hate you. I've completed legendary Takeda/Uesugi campaigns with no vassals or allies past RD, and I don't even consider myself a great campaign player. There are guys on this site who can do things that boggle my mind completely, so I can't imagine they'd find RD difficult to deal with either.

    Sorry, but this is a big NO. The "history" you claim to have on your side is... well.... inaccurate to say the least. To say that Nobunaga was completely alone against every other person in Japan is completely negligent of the actual history. Also, it's completely false to say that it's like it happened that every single clan and leader in Japan united overnight and all turned their attention directly at Nobunaga. This never happened; it couldn't happen. Inter-clan fighting, politics etc. was still happening very much even after Nobunaga had consolidated his power.

    I'm completely on board with TC on this one. One of the things I hate the most on this is how it completely takes diplomacy, and therefore a giant chunk of the game, out of the game. There's no point ever to hit the diplomacy button again after RD hits. Imagine if they just made the entire first half of the game include no battles. Ever.

    Also, the fact that RD will never hit a computer player is plain stupid. In my most recent campaign RD hit while I had 14 provinces. Shimazu were sitting over there with 19(!) and driving quite comfortably on Kyoto. So, now I'm getting gang raped not only by every clan in the country, but they have allied with a clan that is much more of a threat than I am. Yes...I can completely see how history is on your side.

  5. #185
    ♘Top Hat Zebra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    ..... Re-read his post, one more time.
    "Rajadharma! The Duty of Kings. Know you: Kingship is a Trust. The King is the most exalted and conscientious servant of the people."

  6. #186
    Humble Warrior's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    It never stops and AI clans never get a RD on them, even if they have 30+ provinces.
    That`s the only thing that bugs me about Realm Divide. It also bugs me in FOTS that if you`re slow and the AI faction gets the required number of Provinces first it never gets the option to become Protector or Independent. I hate this because then you get that artificial feeling that the world revolves around just you, it does, but that`s not how it`s supposed to feel. The Faction AI should have the same chance to take the Crown if you miss it.

    I notice though, that in FOTS, if you go Independent one of the Factions will become Protector instead of you, still kinda artificial though, since you know he`ll never get it otherwise.

  7. #187
    easytarget's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Laughing out loud at the idea any of you think there's anything remotely new left to say about RD.

  8. #188

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    I use diplomacy the most for RD. For me, RD is about choosing who will be your enemy at what stage of the process. This can be measured on the diplomatic screen by calculating the effect of the initial -25, and what it means to relations 10 turns out.

    The player times exactly when RD happens, so along with setting up your economies, your military and your agents, I'd say diplomacy should be set up as carefully. This probably means spending money in your RD move to improve relations with other factions, and maybe to break an alliance or two amongst the other clans. Save any daughters for as close to RD as possible. Then it's usually easy.

    I am never attacked by everyone. I know who will declare war and who won't by calculating in the RD falls. I note that trading allies amongst the other clans are also likely to follow each other to war, even if not militarily allied so sometimes there's a friendly clan joining the other side. Anyone who is in the green on the diplomatic screen after the first RD drop is unlikely to declare war until relations drop to hostile. Money easily papers the cracks. 7500 gives +100 to relations for Gifts Appreciated.

    The end calculation is about who is left at -200 when RD stops increasing. Trade, alliance, marriage, mastery of the arts, and maybe a top up from gifts appreciated matches this. Territorial expansion is the hardest negative to manage - incite rebellions, bribe, get vassals to conquer - anything that doesn't increase this score is good. Any clan that has Indifferent or better relations will be onside at -200. I'd say it's easy for most clans to keep an ally to victory.

    Maybe there's nothing new to be said. Maybe the discussion should be about the best way to manage RD.

    For me the mechanic of RD is too inflexible. Give or take a couple of rebel or vassal conquests it always occurs at the same time, and gives the same shape to what follows. It does make the end game more challenging than M2TW, but it also makes all campaigns the same for me.
    "War is an extension of diplomacy, but by other means." Karl von Clausewitz

  9. #189
    Lord Baal's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    RD is moded on my game. Simple, that's why mods exist, for the time mean at least.
    PROUD TO BE A PESANT. And for the dimwitted, I know how to spell peasant. <== This blue things are links, you click them and magical things (like not ending up like a fool) happens.
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  10. #190

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Realm Divide is a lazy game mechanic to cover up the fact that there is _nothing_ within the game to keep you interested after the first 10 provinces. You've literally "been there, done that", hence why they slap artificial difficulty in your face. And if you happen to be a newb, who has no particular knowledge of the underlying game mechanics that can affect diplomacy and politics, you are ed.

    There is no way someone who is playing the main campaign blind knows to deal with all the the game throws at you.

  11. #191

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    nice therad

  12. #192

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    In my realm divide as Shimazu I managed to make a few choke points, however some clans managed to get around this with an naval invasion on my mine island and all my armies are at the frontline! I think I should just replay this crap!
    Outgunned, outnumbered...But never outclassed!

  13. #193
    easytarget's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by uScared View Post
    Realm Divide is a lazy game mechanic to cover up the fact that there is _nothing_ within the game to keep you interested after the first 10 provinces. You've literally "been there, done that", hence why they slap artificial difficulty in your face. And if you happen to be a newb, who has no particular knowledge of the underlying game mechanics that can affect diplomacy and politics, you are ed.

    There is no way someone who is playing the main campaign blind knows to deal with all the the game throws at you.
    You resurrected a thread that hasn't been touched in three years to tell us this?

    /golf clap

  14. #194

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorStoffer View Post
    I call Realm Divide a gamebreaking mechanic because it disabled diplomacy.

    I'm not saying it's insurmountable, undefeatable or anything else, I'm calling it boring and uninteresting. I'm more annoyed than usual as I got screwed in my latest campaign, as updating the mods I used changed the fame levels for realm divide, resulting in it occurring instantly, rather than after capturing another handful of provinces, and my interest in the campaign thereafter simply died off.

    The reason I like Total War games is the mixture of excellent RTS battles, a robust economic system, functional politics, character-driven factions and, generally speaking, a useful and functional diplomatic system. Shogun 2 disabled diplomacy past capturing 15 provinces, and I can't stand it when integral gameplay mechanics are removed to provide an extra "challenge" with little control on the player's side.

    I have no problem with Realm Divide triggering large scale conflict, but I can't stand that anyone who isn't a +200 relations ally declares war, generally, the turn after RD fires. That +200 ally will take maybe 10-12 turns without mods or inordinate amounts of cash. It's cheap and lazy.

    Yes, the Oda clan earned no shortage of enemies for a time, and yet the state of affairs where everyone was at war with them did not last indefinitely, correct? They still engaged in diplomacy, kept some clans out of the fighting, and ended up leading the country, for a while, without having to personally conquer every single last wooden palisade.

    RD is not some insurmountable challenge, it just turns Shogun 2 from an interesting, involved strategy game into an exercise in tedium. Hell, it doesn't even really address the problem of the game losing its challenge past a certain point, as so long as you beat off the original wave of fullstacks and knock out a few one-two province clans, it's just a matter of time before you crush all the other clans, none of which will ever consider any kind of peace deal no matter what.

    To be honest, Napoleon represented the polarization of politics far better; most nations start off strongly disliking France or at war with them, but if France wins enough victorious, and spends conscious time and effort, enemies can be made allies, and those you can not turn can be isolated and dispatched, given time and effort. Shogun 2's diplomacy rewards preparation, but has no value once war begins.
    I just love reading someone's post which describes what you want to say much better than you!

    I am extremely pleased with the effort that they put for the diplomacy to make the Total War game much harder. I am also ok with them changing the logic against player, even it's little bit of cheating.

    But Realm Divide is extreme-illogical turn of event. Oh, forget the realm divide... Sometimes I declare war to someone by hiding behind of my ally. And the enemy armies simply passes around two undefended cities of my ally (which is also the enemy of him) and attacks my provinces, which is extremely frustrating! Making game harder is something, messing with the logic is something else.

  15. #195

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    I think realm divide should leave some ally to fight together in long campaign.
    I see feeble daimyo doing Kamikaze attack(with zero chance of victory) to me and get his clan annihilated in 1 turn after RD. Why? Why they do that?

    Eastern Alliance in the Battle of Sekigahara contains many daimyo. if Tokugawa was only clan in Eastern Alliance, how could Ieyasu prevail? Many daimyo chosen Ieyasu, or even betrayed Western Alliance(in quite treacherous way) because Ieyasu was strongest one and they could always THINK. AI daimyo DOES NOT THINK about survival after RD! They make suicidal decision because of realm divide. It looks hilarious and dumb. Allies and friendships must continue, or even get more stronger by realm divide.


    S2TW diplomacy have 2 problems.

    1.Vassals mean NOTHING! They do no good and they always betrays in the end. No choice for players.
    (even in R2TW, Client states are useless. Now players can levy some units from their territory and they do some fight, but still no good.
    Normally they don't deserve 1 settlement in my precious province. CA gotta do something about vassal factions.)

    2.Realm divide = Forced war with everybody! Who thought this kind of dumb idea?
    Realm divide(Tenka-wakeme) means Japan is being divided into 2 side. Ally and enemy. It is not me vs everybody.
    If CA wants to call it "Realm divide", then they should show us realm divided in 2!



    + but facing realm divide in short campaign felt like Oda Nobunaga. I kinda like it because it is so realistic.
    (He faced 2 great struggle with anti-nobunaga alliance, just like realm divide in S2TW.
    It forced him painful choices like truce, begging Imperial court to intervene, marrying his daughter to enemy. but later he just crushed them one by one)

  16. #196

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    I see this thread has been resurrected. I don't understand the problem - RD is easy to manage when you know it's coming, and when you know the game. I always keep my allies and vassals at RD, and usually keep them for the duration of the game. RD has made the game challenging for the entire campaign. I like it.

    For a beginner it is very hard, but looking at the variables makes it easy. It's all about the numbers on the diplomacy screen, which need to be constantly monitored in the run up to RD and after it kicks in. RD is maxxed out at -200 after 36 turns.

    There are a few things to know. The player should be able to manage their economy in order to produces surpluses so that they can make monetary gifts to allies and vassals. My remarks following relate to a Hard campaign.

    The player can keep all their allies and vassals if they
    - maintain relations at Friendly or better before RD
    - maintain relations above Hostile (-70) after RD.

    1. RD comes in two parts.
    - first, at 14 territories by direct conquest; the AI may allow up to 16 provinces if bribing or inciting revolts and then capturing rebel provinces
    - second, on being declared Shogun

    If you make a vassal after RD for conquering 14 territories, but before you are declared Shogun then RD will start for the vassal when you become Shogun.

    2. Always get the Daimyo honour points on the Daimyo (and heir's) skill tree. This gives +20 to diplomatic relations. (See screenshot S1)

    3. Pick up the mastery of the arts bonuses on the Chi Mastery of the Arts. This gives +20 to diplomatic relations (See screenshot S2)

    4. For your allies and vassals you should have the following diplomatic bonuses before RD:
    - +60 trade agreement
    - +40 military alliance
    - +20 Daimyo honour (from Daimyo skill tree)
    - +20 Mastery of the Arts (from Chi tree)
    - +20 marriage between clans

    Base Total = +160

    When RD starts with the -25 drop any ally or vassal with whom you are Friendly or Very Friendly will stay with you, (with a couple of exceptions).

    Even when max RD of -200 is reached these bonuses will give relations of Unfriendly at -40. This level will not cause the Ally or Vassal to go to war with you, even though they are Unfriendly. They will not go to war with you until you reach Hostile at -70.

    5. Gifts appreciated of 7000 will give you +100 to relations, which then degrades by -3 each turn down to zero. If you make further gifts before the gifts appreciated total reaches zero they will only have half the effect. Giving money papers over the cracks if you haven't reached the max bonuses at RD, or for some time afterwards.

    This is useful if, for example, your trade bonus is still growing from, say, +30, and it will take another 20 turns for it to reach maximum.

    6. Marriages should be made close to RD or after, and only with Allies or Vassals. Save your daughters for the time their marriage will give maximum effect. Marry the daughters of your Allies and Vassals.

    Marriage gives an initial +100, which degrades by -2 per turn down to a base level of +20

    7. Vassals are best made after RD
    - Vassals give a bonus to Daimyo honour, and hence diplomatic relations, up to 3 vassals
    - Vassals made before RD will be accrue the RD penalties up to max -200
    - Vassals made after RD will not be subject to RD penalties, and are easy to keep
    - Note that a vassal made after RD but before you become Shogun will start RD penalties from that event

    8. The Territorial Expansion penalty is the slowest to degrade

    - this penalty degrades at -1 per turn, so takes a long time to get rid of
    - I keep it under -20, and always look to let it run down to zero
    - bribing, or inciting revolts and then taking rebel territories is the best way to keep this penalty down while expanding


    Screenshots

    S1 - The Daimyo skill tree
    - shows the Daimyo honour bonuses

    S2 - Chi Mastery of Arts - Diplomatic Relations bonuses
    - shows the location of the diplomatic relations bonuses

    S3 - Otomo Diplomatic screen with RD -195
    - even with the RD penalty at -195 the Otomo clan keep their Chosokabe ally happy
    - despite the Chosokabe dishonouring treaties (-50) and the religious difference (-40) the Chosokabe are Friendly at +40
    - this is due to timed marriage (+100) and timed Gift of 7000 (+100) to keep them on side
    - Mastery of the Arts for both clans gives +40, and Daimyo honour for both clans gives another +30
    - the Chosokabe ally is at war with all of the Otomo enemies
    - Note: the territorial expansion penalty is only -1. The Otomo expand through bribery and incitement to revolt.
    - Note: the Takaoka are a vassal made after RD, have no RD penalty, and are Very Friendly

    S4 - Date Diplomatic Screen at RD
    - the Ally the Hatakeyama are Very Friendly at +102
    - the AI allows 16 territories due to conquest through bribery rather than attacking a clan

    S5 - Date Diplomatic Screen when RD = -55
    - the Date waited for maximum benefit for the marriage of their daughter, now giving +84 to clan relations

    S6 - Date Diplomatic Screen when RD = -200
    - despite RD -200 relations with Ally Hatakeyama are Indifferent at +8
    - bonuses are due to Daimyo Honour, Mastery of the Arts and Marriage Alliance
    - relations could easily be boosted +108 by giving a 7000 gift
    - the Hatakeyama will never turn on the Date under the current status quo, despite max RD
    - Note: two vassals, the Bessho and the Sakai have been made after RD, and both are Very Friendly.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails S1-DaimyoSkillTree-HonourBonuses-2015-12-03.jpg   S2-ChiMasteryOfArts-DiplomaticBonus-2015-12-03.jpg   S3-OtomoDiploScreen-RD35turns-2015-12-03.jpg   S4-DateDiplomaticScreenAtRD-2015-12-03.jpg   S5-DateDiplomaticScreen-RD55-2015-12-03.jpg  

    S6-DateDiplomaticScreen-RD200-2015-12-03.jpg  
    Last edited by FootSoldier; December 03, 2015 at 05:42 AM. Reason: added note about Bessho and Sakai made vassals after RD
    "War is an extension of diplomacy, but by other means." Karl von Clausewitz

  17. #197

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Well in my experience if i take it slow enough. By the time the realm divide event fires there's only a handful of clans left standing. Which then turns the game into a sort of clash of the titan's sort of scenario. Especially on higher difficulties as the AI tends to blob more.

  18. #198
    Ukiah's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Quote Originally Posted by Humble Warrior View Post
    That`s the only thing that bugs me about Realm Divide. It also bugs me in FOTS that if you`re slow and the AI faction gets the required number of Provinces first it never gets the option to become Protector or Independent. I hate this because then you get that artificial feeling that the world revolves around just you, it does, but that`s not how it`s supposed to feel. The Faction AI should have the same chance to take the Crown if you miss it.

    I notice though, that in FOTS, if you go Independent one of the Factions will become Protector instead of you, still kinda artificial though, since you know he`ll never get it otherwise.
    I'm playing as Mori now. Ito conquered a lot of provinces. The Shogun gave me an objective to take one of Ito's provinces.


  19. #199

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    Epic 5 years long thread
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  20. #200

    Default Re: Realm Divide, How I Hate Thee

    First playthrough of Shogun 2; Realm Divide'd couple days ago. Takeda and Hojo are enemies now. I broke for peace with the former, handing them a 7 year old family member. The next turn their army assaults one of my castles, with another almost full stack coming the next season. Of course the kid's lost his head.

    The Divide happened just after a ceasefire between me (shimazu) and the Takoaka went to hell. Good thing in the meantime I upgraded my infrastructure.
    Last edited by apostrophefz; May 27, 2016 at 02:29 PM.

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