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Thread: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

  1. #241

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    Actually I represent the norm, that is fair treatment for all, under the law. We had to kill a lot of Germans in the last century to make that point.
    Interesting, so what's your fighting record in either of the world wars? Oh that's right - you didn't participate in any, so the Nationalist "we" goes right out of the window.

  2. #242
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    You both clearly don't get it. If a person merely portrays a person of a different race, not an issue. For example Lawrence Olivier is not being racist for portraying Othello.I would say the same for blackfasced Cornish morris dancers, because they just paint their faces, no stupid red lips, no big ear rings , no comical buffoonery. However stereotypes are a diferent issue. The depictions of blackface and the portrayal of this Dutch character are so similar to the US blackface stereotype that it is clear to see why it can be perceived as offensive, even if as Sabaku protests those who take part may not consider themselves thus.
    So the Hindu people can't use the Swastika anymore because it has bad associations elsewhere? What kind of logic is that?

  3. #243

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Phalanx300 View Post
    So the Hindu people can't use the Swastika anymore because it has bad associations elsewhere? What kind of logic is that?
    Hindu swastika is different from the Nazi swastika, its not the same symbol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Treize View Post
    Only a few people dress up like that as part of the show. It is not something everybody does ofcourse.

    In Curaçao and Suriname they have the Saint portrayed by a black guy painted white.
    So in other words you don't have the information I was looking for...
    Last edited by chilon; November 14, 2014 at 02:08 PM.
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  4. #244

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Interesting, so what's your fighting record in either of the world wars? Oh that's right - you didn't participate in any, so the Nationalist "we" goes right out of the window.
    A rather silly reponse. I doubt that a wartime version of Chuck Norris could have knocked out Germany all on his own.He would require wartime Rambo and Arnie as well. I think you can take it as read that the US and Commonwealth had to do a lot work dismantling Mayer's dreamworld and did the Soviets from their end. And the price was paid in blood. Mind you if that is the only pedantic gripe you have, I can live with that.
    Last edited by mongrel; November 14, 2014 at 03:07 PM.
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  5. #245
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post



    So in other words you don't have the information I was looking for...
    This will settle things once and for all...









    This issue is prolly about misunderstanding due to watching things from an American-Anglo-globalized angle, and to do with to many liberals not knowing about why and how the many real issues come about and need to be changed. Harping on this cheap issue gives them their needed liberal fix. But its counterproductive and anti-culture in a very real materialistic sense, happening as we speak. Coming from a liberal....
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  6. #246
    Treize's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist



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  7. #247
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    so, Sinterklaas arrival in Gouda got out of hand today, 40.000 people came to watch Sinterklaas arrive in the Netherlands as traditionally happens, it's supposed to be a great event, for children.

    But then hippies and other crappy people had to show up and protest against Zwarte Piet and call him racist. So small scale rioting ensued and 60 people where arrested.


    Well played hippies well played what kind of example did you give the kids witnessing you beat up people because you hate Zwarte Piet.


    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    The depictions of blackface and the portrayal of this Dutch character are so similar to the US blackface stereotype that it is clear to see why it can be perceived as offensive, even if as Sabaku protests those who take part may not consider themselves thus.
    For god's sake Mongrel, what happens/happened in the USA culturally should not influence what happens in a Free European country culturally, because something is offensive in the Anglo world due to stuff Anglo's did, does not give Anglo's or "modern liberals" the right to impose the Anglo values on non Anglo's.

    It's kind of racist, paternalistic and I dare say Imperialist of you to say such a thing, you do realise Great Brittain is not so Great anymore right? You are essentially the Us and the banking sector's lapdog who are you to tell us mainlanders what is right or wrong?
    Last edited by sabaku_no_gaara; November 15, 2014 at 11:20 AM.

  8. #248

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Treize REP+
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  9. #249

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    An answer is not required. Stereotyping is often seen as offensive. I would have thought this was self-evident.
    There is no stereotyping this is a fictional character and even if someone finds this offensive thats doesnt mean its racist.


    You both clearly don't get it. If a person merely portrays a person of a different race, not an issue. For example Lawrence Olivier is not being racist for portraying Othello.I would say the same for blackfasced Cornish morris dancers, because they just paint their faces, no stupid red lips, no big ear rings , no comical buffoonery. However stereotypes are a diferent issue. The depictions of blackface and the portrayal of this Dutch character are so similar to the US blackface stereotype that it is clear to see why it can be perceived as offensive, even if as Sabaku protests those who take part may not consider themselves thus.
    No its not blackface was to make fun was to depict stupid lazy,... this is not the case here.

    AGain you seem to have the wrong impression because you THINK its US style blackface in the netherlands. As I frst said here, most of these people against it simply dont know what they are talking about and take their own cultural sensitivity that has nothing to dow with this with them and judge .


    Let me help you

    "Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples. It often takes the form of social actions, practices or beliefs, or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. It may also hold that members of different races should be treated differently.[1][2][3]"


    Racisme still means you have to take actionthat affects the other negativly.

    Here that is not the case .

  10. #250

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    so, Sinterklaas arrival in Gouda got out of hand today, 40.000 people came to watch Sinterklaas arrive in the Netherlands as traditionally happens, it's supposed to be a great event, for children.

    But then hippies and other crappy people had to show up and protest against Zwarte Piet and call him racist. So small scale rioting ensued and 60 people where arrested.


    Well played hippies well played what kind of example did you give the kids witnessing you beat up people because you hate Zwarte Piet.

    As some people on this thread suggested that black critics should be expelled, what is to be done with these hippies?

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    For god's sake Mongrel, what happens/happened in the USA culturally should not influence what happens in a Free European country culturally, because something is offensive in the Anglo world due to stuff Anglo's did, does not give Anglo's or "modern liberals" the right to impose the Anglo values on non Anglo's.It's kind of racist, paternalistic and I dare say Imperialist of you to say such a thing, you do realise Great Brittain is not so Great anymore right? You are essentially the Us and the banking sector's lapdog who are you to tell us mainlanders what is right or wrong?

    As there is a major Star Trek Convention in Germany every year this cannot be entirely true. I would say that if the stereotype is not an exact copy of US blackface, it may demonstrate a remarkable example of parallel evolution, because it damned well looks similar. As for an alternate view being an imposition,we in England have been through that, worn the T-shirt and on reflection , yes the Black & White Ministrel show was a pile of patronising shite. No loss. In 40 years time the Dutch may feel the same way about their quaint custom.

    Quote Originally Posted by k995 View Post
    Racism consists of both prejudice and discrimination based in social perceptions of biological differences between peoples
    You don't have to discriminate against anyone to be racist. In fact many racists don't have the opportunity to meet the target of their prejudice. It is also entirely possible to have racist views against people who are biologically the same, for example Scots and English.
    Last edited by mongrel; November 15, 2014 at 03:16 PM.
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  11. #251
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    As some people on this thread suggested that black critics should be expelled, what is to be done with these hippies?
    They should both (blacks who oppose this and the hippies) be given a crash course in "how do I respectfully object to my country's tradition without Destroying the Children's annual highlight of the year"




    As there is a major Star Trek Convention in Germany every year this cannot be entirely true. I woulkd say that if if the stereotype is not an exact copy of US blackface, it may demonstrate a remarkable example of parallel evolution, because it damned well looks similar. As for an alternate view being an imposition,we in England have been through that, worn the T-shirt and on reflection , yes the Black & White Ministrel show was a pile of patronising shite. No loss. In 40 years time the Dutch may feel the same way about their quaint custom.
    It still doesn't make the American minstrel shows a valid argument against Zwarte Piet

  12. #252

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by mongrel View Post
    One day after Remembrance Day, you promote Nazi Germany. As I said, we had to kill a lot of Germans before they realised that sticking Jews in ovens and enslaving half of Europe was not the best way to run a country.
    Your political correctness and staunch support of everything immigrant-like was not the reason They fought either. Infact most of them probably dont even like you and your views. Food for thought before claiming "we" fought anything.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...iors-WWII.html

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  13. #253

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorn777 View Post
    This will settle things once and for all...





    Care to translate?
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  14. #254
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Care to translate?
    The first and third were about the decision to not send any Black Pete's into the Bijlmer, a part of Amsterdam with a high percentage of people from Suriname/Antilles/foreign countries, because they might risk getting abused. Pownews, the absolute dick of Dutch newsshows, decided to test that and sent in some to see reactions. All the people in the video are denying it and say they personally have no problem with Black Pete. The old guy on the bike said that the Germans should kill "you" all to the reporter and that they all suffered of cancer as they're just here to provoke. (It is Pownews and they do tend to try to provoke everyone pretty much all the time so that's somewhat predictable) The guy didn't seem to have a problem with Black Pete though, just with the provoking.

    The second vid was someone known as the Braboneger voicing his opinion on the discussion. He says something like: Yes, Sinterklaas is racist but it's been a tradition here for longer than you guys have been here. If you have a problem just sod off to Somalia, Suriname, Turkey, Morocco or whereever.
    Then he comments on Black Pete's appearance, he's supposed to be black from climbing through the chimney and being covered with soot. This does not give him frizzy hair and those red lips though, unless you slide through the chimney with your face against the wall. Also, in recent years there have been more and more "brown Pete's", with people using brown paint instead of black. That has to go, if you want brown Pete's just ask some negro's. (His words, not mine)
    The video is not to be taken seriously, he's just making popular vids.

  15. #255

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    The first and third were about the decision to not send any Black Pete's into the Bijlmer, a part of Amsterdam with a high percentage of people from Suriname/Antilles/foreign countries, because they might risk getting abused. Pownews, the absolute dick of Dutch newsshows, decided to test that and sent in some to see reactions. All the people in the video are denying it and say they personally have no problem with Black Pete. The old guy on the bike said that the Germans should kill "you" all to the reporter and that they all suffered of cancer as they're just here to provoke. (It is Pownews and they do tend to try to provoke everyone pretty much all the time so that's somewhat predictable) The guy didn't seem to have a problem with Black Pete though, just with the provoking.

    The second vid was someone known as the Braboneger voicing his opinion on the discussion. He says something like: Yes, Sinterklaas is racist but it's been a tradition here for longer than you guys have been here. If you have a problem just sod off to Somalia, Suriname, Turkey, Morocco or whereever.
    Then he comments on Black Pete's appearance, he's supposed to be black from climbing through the chimney and being covered with soot. This does not give him frizzy hair and those red lips though, unless you slide through the chimney with your face against the wall. Also, in recent years there have been more and more "brown Pete's", with people using brown paint instead of black. That has to go, if you want brown Pete's just ask some negro's. (His words, not mine)
    The video is not to be taken seriously, he's just making popular vids.
    Cool. Thanks for translating. Those kind of opinions were exactly what I was looking for.
    "Our opponent is an alien starship packed with atomic bombs," I said. "We have a protractor."

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  16. #256

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemental View Post
    Your political correctness and staunch support of everything immigrant-like was not the reason They fought either. Infact most of them probably dont even like you and your views. Food for thought before claiming "we" fought anything.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...iors-WWII.html
    A pointless remark. I don't see many pensioners telling me to feck off.The British didn't have much negative to say about its acquired Poles during the 40s. Opinion is now largely anti-uncontrolled East European migration. As for myself, I'm on record on being anti-uncontrolled EU migration, full stop, hardly stanch support. The Daily Mail was on Hitler's side until hostilities started, so is hardly fit to wipe my arse with.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabaku_no_gaara View Post
    They should both (blacks who oppose this and the hippies) be given a crash course in "how do I respectfully object to my country's tradition without Destroying the Children's annual highlight of the year"
    Both were seen as mainstream, harmless entertainment. The aquisition of civil rights on both sides of the Atlantic doomed this unfortunate art form. I would expect that some in Holland and Flanders have now woken up to this issue 40 years behind the rest of the western world. No Black Pete supporter has explained why people apply their make up and costumes in a manner of some 19th century racist cartoon character, the Golliwog. We've ditched this image long ago.

    I'm embarassed for the Netherlands. It was once a progressive and tolerant nation.


    Quote Originally Posted by lolIsuck View Post
    , he's supposed to be black from climbing through the chimney and being covered with soot. .
    English Chimney Sweep



    Dutch Chimney Sweep

    Last edited by mongrel; November 15, 2014 at 09:49 PM.
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  17. #257
    lolIsuck's Avatar WE HAVE NO CAKE!
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by chilon View Post
    Cool. Thanks for translating. Those kind of opinions were exactly what I was looking for.
    I forgot to mention, one little girl was glad they sent Black Pete instead of the suggested other colours because Black Pete is the Sint's original helper, the others are all new and she didn't seem to like them. Of course in a few years the kids won't know that all Pete's were black since the older ones have grown up and the younger ones have only experienced it this way.

  18. #258
    Inhuman One's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Alright, let's get a few things straight.

    -Sinterklaas freed black slaves, and offered them to work for him in paid service.
    Is it that strange that young black men help an old white man who clearly can't deliver all gifts to the children on his own?
    Sinterklaas is not Santa Clause after all, he is portrayed as more frail. A wise old man who tends to be portrayed as a bit out of touch with modern times while Zwarte Piet is young and energetic, delivering the gifts through the chimneys, and they are fully aware of modern technology and such, often explaining it to Sinterklaas.

    -Back when the tradition started, there practicly where no black people in the Netherlands.
    What people here knew of black people where practicly stories, pictures and such, and whatever was told about them. Naturally this results in a stereotypical portrayal for those who painted themselves black to play the part of Sinterklaas his helpers. This did change through the years as global racism diminished and more black people moved here.
    While currently it would be possible for the role of zwarte piet to be exclusively played by black people in most big cities, in smaller towns and cities there simply are not that many black people, hence white people play that role. The role of sinterklaas is often not played by an old man either.

    -Zwarte piet is mostly played by teens.
    If its considered that zwarte piet acts foolish or such, this could be due to teens usually playing the part. It tends to be seen as a good excuse for a little innocent mischief because nobody will recognize them. It also gives them more confidence to act a bit silly and entertain the children. Either way it may explain their somewhat erratic behaviour. But as far as I have seen around me, everyone playing this part does have one thing in common: They do it for the children and really care about entertaining them.

    Naturally it will happen that some teens may play the part in a slightly racistic way, but thats based on the individual and not a national thing.

    -riots at the arrival of Sinterklaas.
    While objections can be made, I do find it absolutely repulsive that protestors worked hard to ruin a festivity for children. There where 90 arrests in Gouda, 90! at a festivity for children!
    While I mainly blame the provokers for this who are against zwarte piet, I also blame those who took their bait and turned it into somewhat of a riot.

    The children's enjoyment comes first here, any issues about wether the content of this festivity is racist or not should be kept away from them.

    -respect cultural traditions.
    Here in the Netherlands we allow other cultures to mutilate little boys, ritually butcher animals, build mosques, wear burka's, etc. And thats fine.
    But if we show respect to many such traditions even though we dont agree with them, can't immigrants be more tolerant to the local traditions?
    This just creates unneeded hate towards immigrants.

    I'd say save the accusations of racism for actual causes of racism.
    If a small minority wants to feel offended because they see this as some traumatic reference to slavery, perhaps they should get off their butts and make a stand against the actual slavery that still goes on in the world. That seems more productive than playing the victim and destroying a children's festivity. Quit playing the blame game towards people of who only a small percentage of their distant ancestors actually where involved in some form of slavery.

  19. #259

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30069240

    So much for our Dutch members claiming that nobody in NL has a problem with this.

  20. #260

    Default Re: Dutch Christmas tradition branded racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30069240

    So much for our Dutch members claiming that nobody in NL has a problem with this.
    Nobody said that, please stop making up most of what you say. It really doesnt help the dicussion.


    And yes a coupkle of idiots decieded to ruin a childrens party for some invented racisme charges that (like in this thread) have nothing to do with it .

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