[Discussion]CONQUEST 1453(FETİH 1453)

[Harith]

Im feeling a light smell of flame wars . Guys, let's re-analyze everething again, from a neutral point of view.
These proofs indicate that the movie is going to be biased (just look at the trailer):



Im not against the turks, but im not against my fellow romanophilies. So please guys, let's talk like civilized people, and not as barbarians.

ur absolutely right, but since the "genocide" theory came along and the ":wub:er" came with it.... I guess there is no escape.

honestly, respect all the cultures, respect history and get ur nationalism out of here. Nobody, and I mean not a single living human being, will give a damn whether the turks deserved it or not. Also, lets not forget that the turks didnt just conquer constantinople, it took them 400 years of fighting a superior and professional force. Unfortunately, the byzantine kings or emperors were incapable fools and spoiled brats who led to their own destruction and the destruction of their empire.

bottom line, the american exploration... do u remember or even know what the spanish, british and french did to the poor mayans??? do u know what kind of brutality and sacking they had to go through??? can u now tell them to get the hell out of the country and give it back to the aztecs who faced a systematic genocide??? no... so its the same case with the turks.

and for those who wanna complain about genocides, let us no forget the greek force that occupied half of modern day turkey and it did to the local population.

[Tureuki]

Looting the captured city which is not responsed the surrender calls is a tradition and compulsory, Mehmed didn't wanted to loot the city but he can't do anything about that, as far as I know he limited the loot with 1 day.

[Vhaelor]

and our prophet blessed the commander and his troops who would capture Constantinople.

Funny you should say that, if Mehmet needed the aid of God (or his Prophet) to capture the last bastion of an incredibly weakened and pauperized empire...does that not make Mehmet look incredibly weak? And looking at the world at the time, let's be frank now, the Byzantine Empire was doomed to fall long before 1453. Due to a religious schism the west long refused to help the Byzantines (especially when it was needed as most), the western parts of europe called the byzantines "the defenders of christendom from the barbarians" (read as: zoroastrians first and then muslims in their point of view) which the Byzantines also didn't mind, it gave them some political leverage against the west and the Papacy. But later in the eras, civil wars, the sacking of Constantinople by the Crusaders and constant pressure from the east by the turkish clans eroded the empire's strength, when it finally came to the siege of constantinople - a process that lasted for centuries had culminated into the fall of the Byzantine Empire, not the intervention of God - or his prophet.

and one more thing, Janissary were an elite corp that was the reason behind the legacy of the ottoman empire. They were the reason for its fame and they were the best fighters to be found.... how??? because I study history and I have proof. So they could've pretty much killed all the Byzantines while losing few men only. The Janissary were warriors since the age of 15 or so, and their training was daily and....... they were equipped with only the finest weapons purchased by the Sultan.

You forgot to mention that they were taken from their families in the outlying provinces such as modern day Bosnia and Serbia (and other parts of the Balkans), sent to be raised as turks and elite warriors - oh and then sent back to their proper homelands to wreak havoc and all sorts of crimes against humanity. But I can see that it would be hard to mention this since few empires rarely brag about their cruelty towards their conquered subjects (Ancient Assyrians being for instance one exception).

Sorry if I'm not too much in favour of the turks in history, but they were hardly better or worse than the byzantines, both the former and the latter were imperialists - which does not excuse them from their behaviour.

[Harith]

You forgot to mention that they were taken from their families in the outlying provinces such as modern day Bosnia and Serbia (and other parts of the Balkans), sent to be raised as turks and elite warriors - oh and then sent back to their proper homelands to wreak havoc and all sorts of crimes against humanity.

lol wut? yes they were taken by force at first, I dont deny that, but later the ppl accepted this idea due to the honor and prestige it provided them. Beside, the ottoman were perhaps the most tolerant empire up to suleyman's reign. They didnt massacre the ppl and thats why many provinces joined them instead of being conquered.

I dont know what nationalistic book u read at school or university, but I read books from western and eastern historians who all have neutral looks into the empire the best being The Ottoman Turks by Justin McCarthy

[Vhaelor]

lol wut? yes they were taken by force at first, I dont deny that, but later the ppl accepted this idea due to the honor and prestige it provided them. Beside, the ottoman were perhaps the most tolerant empire up to suleyman's reign. They didnt massacre the ppl and thats why many provinces joined them instead of being conquered.

While certainly the turks were merciful (because an iron fist all the time never works for any empire, and you say that they were perhaps the most merciful. According to whom? What do you base this on?) but go to the Balkans and ask the peoples there what their impression of the Ottoman occupation of their lands was like. I doubt very much that you'll find many people saying "oh they were so good to us". You first admit that they forcibly removed little children from their families to train them to be elite soldiers/killers and then you smooth it over with a "but later on it was an honour and prestige". Sorry mate, but that does not excuse their behaviour. Mind you I'm not railing here on the ottoman empire just because they were turks and not romans or greeks or austrians, all of the beforementioned comitted atrocities as well.

I can't say that I can sit here and sugarcoat neither the roman legions nor the turkish janissaries because both of these groups did horrible things, and that's why I also don't like it when other people try to sugarcoat it.

People even today in the balkans have a saying going around that they hope for pestilence, plague and death rather than the turks to return.

I dont know what nationalistic book u read at school or university

The ultimate argument...this is so intellectually bankrupt that I won't even deign to respond to it...

but I read books from western and eastern historians who all have neutral looks into the empire the best being The Ottoman Turks by Justin McCarthy

Okay, thanks for the reference, though I have never heard of a historical document that wasn't angled for some reason. You say it's neutral, but to who's point of view. Just because a third party investigates something doesn't mean it's balanced or neutral. For instance Edward Gibbon wrote 'The Fall and Decline of the Roman Empire', but Gibbon himself was an imperialist and very much tried to justify and associate the british empire with the roman.

But, I'll look into that book, it might be an interesting read.

[yls3431]

About Fatih Sultan Mehmet Han , he first crowned at the age of 13. Crusaders , hearing of the situation, quickly gathered and tried to take advantage of it , as a chivalrous knight should!
Then Mehmet Han wrote his famous letter to his father(Sultan Murat Han had willingly handed the crown to his son) :
Father,
If you are the Emperor come and honour your duty and take command of the army,
If I am the Emperor I command you to take command of the army.

[Megas Ycarus]

ur absolutely right, but since the "genocide" theory came along and the ":wub:er" came with it.... I guess there is no escape.

honestly, respect all the cultures, respect history and get ur nationalism out of here. Nobody, and I mean not a single living human being, will give a damn whether the turks deserved it or not. Also, lets not forget that the turks didnt just conquer constantinople, it took them 400 years of fighting a superior and professional force. Unfortunately, the byzantine kings or emperors were incapable fools and spoiled brats who led to their own destruction and the destruction of their empire.

bottom line, the american exploration... do u remember or even know what the spanish, british and french did to the poor mayans??? do u know what kind of brutality and sacking they had to go through??? can u now tell them to get the hell out of the country and give it back to the aztecs who faced a systematic genocide??? no... so its the same case with the turks.

and for those who wanna complain about genocides, let us no forget the greek force that occupied half of modern day turkey and it did to the local population.

Oh wait there buddy. Im not nationalist. Not to the present countries, neither the past ones. Im currently neutral on this topic. And unfortunately or not, there are people whom care if the turks really deserved it. And for the genocide stuff, please guys, don't be childish. Genocides are facts. So for the Holocaust, Ukranian Genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. It doesn't matter if you guys want to prove that it is legitimate or not, since it already happened, ok ? As the proverb says, " happens".

[hospitaller13]

edit

[Tureuki]

Constantinople was a ruin when Turks captured it.

Why you think one is greater then other ?

[Harith]

Oh wait there buddy. Im not nationalist. Not to the present countries, neither the past ones. Im currently neutral on this topic. And unfortunately or not, there are people whom care if the turks really deserved it. And for the genocide stuff, please guys, don't be childish. Genocides are facts. So for the Holocaust, Ukranian Genocide, and the Armenian Genocide. It doesn't matter if you guys want to prove that it is legitimate or not, since it already happened, ok ? As the proverb says, " happens".

no no im agreein with u, im tellin the others to stop. Anyway, history isnt fair, so we just have to learn to deal with it.

[Timbab]

Oh man, HAHA, the Greek posters here.

Get a grip, seriously. Throwing a hissy fit on who is better and all that junk, how pathetic are you people. It's kind of sad that the Turkish posters here are mainly neutral/not hateful, while the Greeks are spouting pure hate, yet demand neutrality and not propaganda, way to be hypocrites.

Yeah, this movie will be bias, but it's just going to be same way like Hollywood movies are bias, yet no one cries there, right? Face it, if Greece made their biggest budget movie about a battle against the Turks, it would be bias as hell too, it's just how it works. Don't watch the movie if you can't stand it, but keep away with the immaturity already.

Now, to the movie itself, good to see that Turkey is trying to fund their movies more, as others said, I hope this opens the road to more bigger budget movies. I've heard some US production companies helped with the movie. The effects aren't really THAT amazing, but for their first time, it's pretty decent. I just hope it won't turn out to be a cheesy action flick and stick more to realism, but obviously it's going to be bias.

P.S. @ the guy who said Iranian movie and never corrected it, say wat? If that was suppose to be some clever remark, it failed miserably.

[Vhaelor]

Oh man, HAHA, the Greek posters here.

Get a grip, seriously. Throwing a hissy fit on who is better and all that junk, how pathetic are you people. It's kind of sad that the Turkish posters here are mainly neutral/not hateful, while the Greeks are spouting pure hate, yet demand neutrality and not propaganda, way to be hypocrites.

Yeah, this movie will be bias, but it's just going to be same way like Hollywood movies are bias, yet no one cries there, right? Face it, if Greece made their biggest budget movie about a battle against the Turks, it would be bias as hell too, it's just how it works. Don't watch the movie if you can't stand it, but keep away with the immaturity already.

Now, to the movie itself, good to see that Turkey is trying to fund their movies more, as others said, I hope this opens the road to more bigger budget movies. I've heard some US production companies helped with the movie. The effects aren't really THAT amazing, but for their first time, it's pretty decent. I just hope it won't turn out to be a cheesy action flick and stick more to realism, but obviously it's going to be bias.

P.S. @ the guy who said Iranian movie and never corrected it, say wat? If that was suppose to be some clever remark, it failed miserably.

While I don't disagree with that a lot of people are biased (one way or another)...

I just want to ask you one question:

How on earth did you determine that everyone who's ...well shall we say not in agreement with you...is from Greece?

[Megas Ycarus]

Get a grip, seriously. Throwing a hissy fit on who is better and all that junk, how pathetic are you people. It's kind of sad that the Turkish posters here are mainly neutral/not hateful, while the Greeks are spouting pure hate, yet demand neutrality and not propaganda, way to be hypocrites.

Well, in a few words: Turks won, and Greeks lost. That's why of that bitter resentment.

Now, to the movie itself, good to see that Turkey is trying to fund their movies more, as others said, I hope this opens the road to more bigger budget movies. I've heard some US production companies helped with the movie. The effects aren't really THAT amazing, but for their first time, it's pretty decent. I just hope it won't turn out to be a cheesy action flick and stick more to realism, but obviously it's going to be bias.

It's going to be very realistic yeah yeah... Speech at the Hippodrome, conanesque 11th century italian commander, baby-killing 15 century crusaders, mini-hitler Constantine... lol

[zburanuki]

the majority of people here are not from greece man.in other treads i have seen some really ''beautiful'' posts from turks.anyway that means nothing. as for the movie, i want to ask if anyone of you knows if there are scenes inside or around Agia Sofia (where Constantine's last speech was made) ?

[Timbab]

While I don't disagree with that a lot of people are biased (one way or another)...

I just want to ask you one question:

How on earth did you determine that everyone who's ...well shall we say not in agreement with you...is from Greece?

I don't generally mean that everyone who disagrees is from Greece, but some clearly are and show it proudly, those are the ones I mean. Then there are a few blatantly obvious Turkey haters, then there is everyone else. Fyi, I'm not pro of either, so don't label me into the same .

The same old jadajada about ""I'm better!" "No! I'M BETTER"" that is mainly shown by the Greek posters here, in comparison to the few Turkish ones, which try to be civil and don't go off spouting "Islamic" crap (Turks in this thread were also labeled as such), etc, etc. Hope you get my point.

Well, in a few words: Turks won, and Greeks lost. That's why of that bitter resentment.

Yea, but it was almost 500 years ago. You don't hear the French or the English (On a large scale) still about certain battles and what not, almost anywhere where I've read about the movie, there is extreme hate and conflict, like, extreme, from the Greek side. Obviously there are idiots on both sides, but the losers in this case are just going insanely overboard.

It's going to be very realistic yeah yeah... Speech at the Hippodrome, conanesque 11th century italian commander, mini-hitler Constantine... lol

Yea lol, I know, I'm just saying, overall.

[nurhak]

still no update on that comment wich stated "iranian" ?

[nein]

tim most of the posts are not from greeks, it's just that people generally dislike that nasty stain left over by the real turk tribes a 1000 years ago.

[Jedi Knight]

I am sorry I really can't see what was so glorious in conquering the last citadel of a crippled empire - there was prestige in it - but not glory and heroism - the Romans were by that time long gone - ever since another heroic act instigated by Venetians in 1204.

So no I can't appreciate a movie that glorifies the Turks for the conquest and defeat of a crippled foe they outnumbered more than 10 to one - a foe denied any help from anywhere and with no possibility of retreating and fighting another day. I am not a fan of the Byzantines don't get me wrong - but it is to the glory of the last of the Eastern Romans that they chose to fight rather than surrender their Empire into history.

I think it was so glorious in conquering the last city of Romans. Just look at the Ottomans side when Romans were empire, Ottomans were just one of the small begliks in Anatolia.Becoming great empire from small beglik and conquering lands in 3 continents were heroic i suppose.

[nein]

by the time the mongols divided anatolia into principalities the roman empire was on it's last legs. People don't seem to understand that they were surrounded by hostile factions in europe too.

[zburanuki]

Constantinople wasn't the last roman (byzantine) city.Trapezus was.