[OSP] [WIP Release 0.8.5] New Units for Gondor REBORN work thread (1st post image heavy)

[Mhaedros]

I'm pretty sure the men of Lossarnach at least mostly weren't Dunedain. In the books they were described as shorter and swarthier than the Dunedain. Most of the numenorians settled at the coast and near Anduin

[Ngugi]

They would be of mixed heritage, with either forefathers among the original settlers of the region (kin of the Dunlendings and men of Dunharrow possibly as they lived in the White Mountains but that's not an encouraged consideration at all; rather I would assume some kin to Edain) and/or the Northmen who later came to the realm, in Lossarnach case presumably the earlier mostly;

[The] herdsmen and husbandmen that dwelt [in the townlands of the Pelennor] were not many, and the most part of the people of Gondor lived in the seven circles of the City, or in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings. But beyond, in the great fief of Belfalas, dwelt Prince Imrahil in his castle of Dol Amroth by the sea, and he was of high blood, and his folk also, tall men and proud with sea-grey eyes.
- RotK; Minas Tirith

Long before in the days of their power the mariners of Númenor had established a haven and strong places about the mouths of Anduin, in despite of Sauron in the Black Land that lay nigh upon the east. In the later days to this haven came only the Faithful of Númenor, and many therefore of the folk of the coastlands in that region were in whole or in part akin to the Elf-friends and the people of Elendil, and they welcomed his sons.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[The] people of Elendil were not many, for only a few great ships had escaped the Downfall or survived the tumult of the Seas. They found, it is true, many dwellers upon the westshores who came of their own blood, wholly or in part, being descended from mariners and from wardens of forts and havens that had been set there in days gone by; yet all told the Dúnedain were now only a small folk in the midst of strangers.
- The Peoples of Middle-Earth, The Appendix on Languages: The Languages at the end of the Third Age

After the return of Eldacar the blood of the kingly house and other houses of the Dúnedain became more mingled with that of lesser Men. For many of the great had been slain in the Kin-strife; while Eldacar showed favour to the Northmen, by whose help he had regained the crown, and the people of Gondor were replenished by great numbers that came from Rhovanion.
- Appendix A

[dIRECT0R]

As things stand now in MOS, we've got both the Knights of Minas Tirith and Gondor Cavalry - which is imo a bit redundant. Might we blend them into one unit? Taro, any chance of posting a variant of the Gondor Cavalry with shields? That is to say, the exact same unit models for the Gondor Cavalry "(lance)" variant (with their more elegant lances, and less-fancy duds and helmets) - but with a shield in their empty arm.

Speaking in medieval terms, no heavy cavalryman or knight would be caught dead in battle without his shield.. they even invented a special class of people to carry them around - squires or "shield-bearers" as they were also called. Its an absolutely essential part of any heavy cavalry charge, not least because it also carried the knight's blazon. Plus they look a lot better with them in-game, I think. Would such a modification present a demanding task?

[Taro_M]

I would like to remind you that gondor sucked in cavalry and depended on rohhirims on this one. That is why Gondor Cavalry isnt all that great except for their armor. Also, this is why there are so much lance-sword-shield regional units, to give player more reason to use them. Note that sword only cavalry is the version that should be used.

[dIRECT0R]

I would like to remind you that gondor sucked in cavalry and depended on rohhirims on this one. That is why Gondor Cavalry isnt all that great except for their armor. Also, this is why there are so much lance-sword-shield regional units, to give player more reason to use them. Note that sword only cavalry is the version that should be used.

Gondor had quite decent cavalry, likely better equipped (and perhaps of better quality) than Rohan. Rohan, however, had more quantity. They fielded entire cavalry armies, (and were probably better riders as such). Gondor Cavalry should be very well equipped, but in scarce supply.
Note: I'm not suggesting we change the stats of the Gondor Cavalry - merely their appearance (and that slightly).

As regards sword-carrying heavy cavalry, they make little or no military sense in a medieval context. Heavy cavalry rarely (probably never) used swords as their primary weapon - but a lance or heavy spear. And this was true from England to Mongolia. Heavy cavalry without lances would be driven off the field by any equivalent cavalry unit wielding lances.
Yes, Peter Jackson had a very stirring scene that made little sense about a sword-wielding cavalry charge on a bunch of ruined buildings. Faramir holding his sword out and yelling made very good cinema, but that (brief) scene made about as much sense as Don Quixote charging stone windmills. Imo it shouldn't really influence unit design..

[Taro_M]

The do them yourself, this an OSP so, feel free to use my models and textures.

[dIRECT0R]

The do them yourself, this an OSP so, feel free to use my models and textures.

Working on it as we speak, but I've hit on a bit of a snag. A simple switch-over isn't quite satisfactory as you might notice from the screen - the texture of the vambrace is protruding through the shield. I just started working with MilkShape today and I'm not well-versed at correcting such errors. Might I ask for advice?

I've had another look and the shield appears to be askew, I'm reasonably certain the shield is correctly assigned (bone_Lhand) but its position seems rather wrong.. At the moment I haven't the foggiest as to how I might fix that. Any advice (or direction to a relevant tutorial) would be appreciated.

[Taro_M]

Shields are rigged to left elbow bone, this is enough to fix the problem if you did move it around.

BTW: You could just change description of Knights of Minas Tirith and turn them into Gondor Cavalry.

[dIRECT0R]

Shields are rigged to left elbow bone, this is enough to fix the problem if you did move it around.

BTW: You could just change description of Knights of Minas Tirith and turn them into Gondor Cavalry.

Right, here they are .

[dIRECT0R]

And here's an illustration of what I mean when I talk about using cavalry capes similar to vanilla. This is a crude cape switch and I did not even get the texture up. Imo it almost looks satisfactory already, but unfortunately the vanilla cape intersects somewhat with the new armour textures. That, however, is well beyond my ability to fix

[Taro_M]

I will get around fixing those capes in next iteration of my OSP, for now they can stay as it is. It will be easier for me, as I only need to figure out what to do with one cape and then do same thing for all units with them.

Also I figured out what to do with that Anfalas unit I didnt have name for (Golsagil something). I found pretty cool concept for them. They can be called Golsagil House Errant Riders (Knights?) and they will wear pretty neat mix of lighter armor and plates. namely they will have rather heavily plated arms with mail cuirass. Such combination looks pretty awesome.

However I still need to finish up Lossarnach to release new version with their units. This means balancing (with still isnt finished), UI stuff that has to be made and description for Hobilars.

[dIRECT0R]

I will get around fixing those capes in next iteration of my OSP, for now they can stay as it is. It will be easier for me, as I only need to figure out what to do with one cape and then do same thing for all units with them.

I tried using the Citadel Guards cape on the Bodyguards, it actually worked pretty well until they got into combat and lifted it up out of the horse's.. khm. I don't know how exactly the vanilla capes do it, but they manage to look good when the horsemen lean forward and when they're just riding. The fact that they intersect withe the horse's textures to a degree - but not too much - is I think the most important. That way they seem in contact with the horse at all times (as they would be), and they don't look like they're floating above it. Compared to the Citadel Guards cloak, they seem shorter in length and less wide, but also positioned more closely to the rider.

Generally speaking the Citadel Guards capes themselves could also do with a bit of tweaking imo. They're bent towards the back near the ground, which, like with the horsemen but to a lesser degree, makes the capes look somewhat stiff. And they noticeably float a certain small distance from the soldier. But these are details.

Has the model for the Lossarnach Axemen been released?

[Taro_M]

There is NO WAY to animate a cloak in MTW2, all you can do is to rig it to normal bones and hope for the best. It WILL be stiff, it WILL clip, but I did my best to make it look half decent.

No, I will inform when new release is up.

[dIRECT0R]

There is NO WAY to animate a cloak in MTW2, all you can do is to rig it to normal bones and hope for the best. It WILL be stiff, it WILL clip, but I did my best to make it look half decent.

Yes, of course. Did I suggest otherwise?

EDIT: Anyway I've finished tweaking the excellent Swan Knights model. I've removed the pennon and the cape . Imo the pennons on the lance were rather unnecessary, and were making the lance extremely long (I've shortened it to a length approximately the size of other lances). The cape I've deleted for the time being, until we've got excellent cavalry capes to match the impressive unit design (at which point I was thinking of perhaps making it black, to have the Swan Knights look better in an army with other Gondor units).

I also darkened and desaturated the shade of blue, removed some gold stripes, and modified the skin and hair colour. The white part of their clothes I've made black, with silver embroidery (as opposed to white with gold embroidery). I've thoroughly desaturated every bit of steel, which had a blue tint.

Here's a screenshot

[baz44331]

Taro_M very nice Units you have done here +rep. I really don't know how i missed them. I wonder do you ever plan on doing something like this for Rohan?

[Taro_M]

EDIT: Anyway I've finished tweaking the excellent Swan Knights model. I've removed the pennon and the cape . Imo the pennons on the lance were rather unnecessary, and were making the lance extremely long (I've shortened it to a length approximately the size of other lances). The cape I've deleted for the time being, until we've got excellent cavalry capes to match the impressive unit design (at which point I was thinking of perhaps making it black, to have the Swan Knights look better in an army with other Gondor units).

I also darkened and desaturated the shade of blue, removed some gold stripes, and modified the skin and hair colour. The white part of their clothes I've made black, with silver embroidery (as opposed to white with gold embroidery). I've thoroughly desaturated every bit of steel, which had a blue tint.

If you could start separate thread for such modifications I would be grateful. This thread is already huge and bloating it with alternative version would make it harder for people to look for stuff.

Taro_M very nice Units you have done here +rep. I really don't know how i missed them. I wonder do you ever plan on doing something like this for Rohan?

Nope, Gondor only. However I do plan to make few new mordor units so I will have something m ore to kill .

[dIRECT0R]

If you could start separate thread for such modifications I would be grateful. This thread is already huge and bloating it with alternative version would make it harder for people to look for stuff.

Right, I can take a hint

EDIT: one more thing. I just noticed that the NGU cavalry hold their lances/spears differently than the new vanilla units. With the vanilla cavalry they're at an angle (which is of course more realistic and appears more natural), while NGU units have them straight up. Can this be fixed somehow?

[Taro_M]

Ok, Im starting to finalize Lossarnach units. I would REALLY REALLY like you guys to take a good look at stats as I did them myself, so there is a very good chance that I could up something.

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Axeguards of Lossarnach

Axeguards of Lossarnach ingame Stats: type gondor lossarnach axeguards dictionary gondor_lossarnach_axeguards ; gondor lossarnach axeguards category infantry ; Quality class heavy voice_type light banner faction main_infantry banner holy crusade soldier gondor_lossarnach_axeguards, 60, 0, 1 officer gondor_captain_early_flag officer gondor_captain_early_flag mount_effect elephant +2 attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square stat_health 1, 3 stat_pri 3, 3, quality_thrown_axe, 50, 3, thrown, missile_mechanical, slashing, spear, 0, 11 stat_pri_attr thrown, prec, ap stat_sec 4, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, axe, 25, 1 stat_sec_attr ap stat_pri_armour 3, 3, 4, leather stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh stat_heat 3 stat_ground 0, -1, 0, -2 stat_mental 10, normal, untrained, stat_charge_dist 15 stat_fire_delay 0 stat_food 60, 300 stat_cost 1, 310, 250, 75, 75, 270, 4, 150 armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2, 3 armour_ug_models gondor_lossarnach_axeguards, gondor_lossarnach_axeguards_ug1, gondor_lossarnach_axeguards_ug2, gondor_lossarnach_axeguards_ug3 ownership sicily era 0 sicily era 1 sicily era 2 sicily recruit_priority_offset 10 Description: Lossarnach is well known for being one of Gondor's oldest vassals. It is also well known for its proud, axe-wielding warriors. For the people of Lossarnach, the axe almost symbolizes their way of life. They use it in peace to fell trees, and in war, to fell foes. The Axeguards of Lossarnach seem to be better suited to the latter task. Though their equipment is good, it is not high quality. Still, they serve well on the battlefield as assault troops, capable of doing tremendous damage. Armed with an axe and an oval shield, the Axeguards often use throwing axes before charging the enemy. Lossarnach medium axmen.

[Ngugi]

Ok, Im starting to finalize Lossarnach units. I would REALLY REALLY like you guys to take a good look at stats as I did them myself, so there is a very good chance that I could up something.

Should be given AP perhaps?

[Taro_M]

No, I increased damage instead. AP for such grunts would make it too easy to counter trolls and such.

EDIT: WOOOO!! 2000 posts!