Unit balance

[MrExpendable]

First of all, I'd like to thank the mod team for making this mod. It's very polished as it is now, even for a beta. Good work!

To the point, I'd like to know how people think about the balance of the units and such. I've noticed that the Frankish Spathamen, for example, come in unit sizes of 150 and cost between the 300-400 mark. I feel this could be changed, as they're quite powerful. Secondly, spearmen are generally more expensive swordsmen and axemen, whilst spears are actually very cheap as a weapon. Spearmen still lose in formation against swordsmen, so I don't quite understand why their effectiveness against cavalry should come at a higher price.

Btw, The unit models look really awesome. They look very detailed and accurate. I'd like to know why things like mailed gauntlets/mittens and other hand protection were such a rarity, does anyone have an article or something about this? I always thought that noblemen would at least wear some form of leather on their hands to protect against blades, splinters etc. especially Norman knights.

[Lowes]

Btw, The unit models look really awesome. They look very detailed and accurate. I'd like to know why things like mailed gauntlets/mittens and other hand protection were such a rarity, does anyone have an article or something about this? I always thought that noblemen would at least wear some form of leather on their hands to protect against blades, splinters etc. especially Norman knights.

Smithing at this point in time was crude at best, Hauberks and similar pieces of armor often weighed in excess of 30 pounds, and rarely had sleeves that went past the elbows. What I'm getting at here is that this equipment was expensive, heavy and most importantly, time-consuming and difficult to forge.

The best example of how rare it was to be extremely armored can come from the Bayeux tapestry. William I is the only figure shown to have a full Hauberk, with full-length sleeves. Mitts didn't come into popularity until the 1100s, when it became obvious that cross-hilts of swords were not sufficient to prevent maiming of the hands and wrists - and of course, the process of making chain-mail accessories became a bit easier to do.

[MrExpendable]

Smithing at this point in time was crude at best, Hauberks and similar pieces of armor often weighed in excess of 30 pounds, and rarely had sleeves that went past the elbows. What I'm getting at here is that this equipment was expensive, heavy and most importantly, time-consuming and difficult to forge.

The best example of how rare it was to be extremely armored can come from the Bayeux tapestry. William I is the only figure shown to have a full Hauberk, with full-length sleeves. Mitts didn't come into popularity until the 1100s, when it became obvious that cross-hilts of swords were not sufficient to prevent maiming of the hands and wrists - and of course, the process of making chain-mail accessories became a bit easier to do.

Thanks for your reaction. I understand that armour was hard to come by, though I always assumed that soldiers would try to equip themselves as good as possible. I always thought that the elite of the Norman knights would be covered head-to-toe with full chainmail. Guess I was wrong, apparently.

However, I don't quite understand that if they wouldn't wear mail mittens, then why not leather gloves of some sort? They were less difficult to come by, and I personally think that they could provide excellent protection from scraping blows. They could even be reinforced with padding to maximize their effectiveness. furthermore, they also provided protection from weather conditions.

[smoesville]

Thanks for your reaction. I understand that armour was hard to come by, though I always assumed that soldiers would try to equip themselves as good as possible. I always thought that the elite of the Norman knights would be covered head-to-toe with full chainmail. Guess I was wrong, apparently.

However, I don't quite understand that if they wouldn't wear mail mittens, then why not leather gloves of some sort? They were less difficult to come by, and I personally think that they could provide excellent protection from scraping blows. They could even be reinforced with padding to maximize their effectiveness. furthermore, they also provided protection from weather conditions.

I have no evidence to support this but it may be that it was so they had a better grip on their swords/spears, any kind of gloves reduces feeling so it would be unwise to use IMO.

[MrExpendable]

I have no evidence to support this but it may be that it was so they had a better grip on their swords/spears, any kind of gloves reduces feeling so it would be unwise to use IMO.

I understand why you would come to think of this. However, I think that training with gloves would overcome this problem. Leather adepts to the shape of your hands with extensive use. Also, many knights began using gloves/gauntlets at the 12th century.

Another thing comes to mind when wearing gloves. Formula 1 coureurs usually wear gloves to protect their hands and wrists against shocks and impacts from crashes. Medieval knights would also find this advantageous I think. Beware that landing a blow with a sword could cause some shock/pressure to your hand and wrist, which may be seriously damaging to yourself. Leather would absorb the shock to some extend, thereby reducing chances of bruising yourself.

So for whatever reasons the Normans/Saxons/Vikings would not use leather gloves, I can't see many cons to using them. At least, not as much as using heavy mail hauberks.

[smoesville]

Could it be that well tailored gloves would have more expensive than you think? I mean a good pair of gloves would do as you say but a bad pair would make things more difficult. Though if you look at the wiki entry on the bayaux tapestry does suggest that gloves were widely used by the Normans though it lists no sources on that.

[MrExpendable]

It could be that they were indeed very expensive. I personally find it hard to find any sources on the equipment of soldiers during that time period. I mean, we know what kind of armour they would use and what weapons, but other apparel doesn't seem to come to light very often. Same thing can be said on Scandinavian soldiers in the far north. I imagine Scandinavian nobles/jarls would wear furs and gloves during their wintery campaigns, at least when they're not in battle.

[Heathen Storm]

Historians have actually found that more soldiers during this age were more likely to have used leather bracers or vambraces as opposed to gloves.