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Thread: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

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    SonofPeverel's Avatar GLORY TOTHE BROTHERHOOD
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    Default [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    This thread will be about about everything related to the Crown of Aragon. Army composition, family trees, political situation, etc. Ready to give info?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails aragon.png  
    Last edited by SonofPeverel; December 01, 2011 at 08:41 AM.

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Alright, is there any Aragonese specialist there for suggesting unit roster and army composition? Almogávars were indeed very important but what were their practice? Were they really javelinmen or something else? What else regarding them? Heavy infantry oriented, skirmisher? Heavy cavalrymen? Please let us know.

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    Ixor_Drakar's Avatar Sōkō no yari
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    According to Osprey Almogávars could be either mounted or foot soldiers wielding swords, javelins or crossbows.
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    Princeps Prior
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    I'd keep the Almogavars as skirmishers, or maybe make them into a unit "class". Skirmirshers, Light Infantry, and Crossbowmen. That'd be pretty kewl. Also, the Knights of Montesa I guess. Sadly, I am unsure if the Aragonese had a really unique army. I'd hope they would since they were a bit of a quasi-Empire and all(the King had holdings all over Europe, but werent connected to the land of Aragon in such a way to make an Empire, but I assume that he could could have called upon all kinds of kewl soldiers)

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kriegtooth View Post
    I'd keep the Almogavars as skirmishers, or maybe make them into a unit "class". Skirmirshers, Light Infantry, and Crossbowmen. That'd be pretty kewl. Also, the Knights of Montesa I guess. Sadly, I am unsure if the Aragonese had a really unique army. I'd hope they would since they were a bit of a quasi-Empire and all(the King had holdings all over Europe, but werent connected to the land of Aragon in such a way to make an Empire, but I assume that he could could have called upon all kinds of kewl soldiers)
    When we make a unit, we aim for historical accuracy,, Ixor point they were cavalrymen, crossbowmen, javelinmen or swordsmen, any references regarding them will be greatly appreciated.

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    Wallachian's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Some references pictures for the almoghavers







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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Superb pictures, seems their equipment were based on light/medium armour in term of protection. +rep for the references (forgive me for the caplock comment )

    Regarding those men, how much were they? Did they were part of many Aragonse armies or they were a retinue group of mercenaries or something similar? Any advise will helps alot.

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    Wallachian's Avatar Equites Cohortales
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Hey mate sorry for late reply, was away on holidays. The almoghavers were a class of soldiers from Catalonia. They were a very important part of the Aragonese armies but they also formed their own Catalan Company which served as mercenary force in Sicily, Greece and Asia Minor. They served for the Byzantines until they conquered Athens and formed their own state in Greece known as the Duchy of Athens and Neopatria.

    Indeed, they're equipment was very light. The most famous type of almoghaver would have javelins and a cleaver as weapons. All the pictures are taken from the Osprey book LOS ALMOGAVARES Y LA AMENZA TURCA 1303-1312 written by Ruben Saez.

    Here's a few more almoghaver pics:










    Last edited by Wallachian; January 09, 2012 at 06:50 PM.

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    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    This looks like its going to be a sick new mod, was just wandering if each family would have their family name?

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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Cuffingham View Post
    This looks like its going to be a sick new mod, was just wandering if each family would have their family name?
    Indeed they will, historical family names and been represented within the limit of the game engine.

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    Ikko-Ikki
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Great thanks i cant wait for this

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Catalan Vicariates

    I will prospect into this matter, it need to open as layer some other administrative maps to make a coherent system of ancillaries.


    Vegueries històriques(historic vicariates, 1267 circa)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Divisó territorial segons els fogatge de 1304
    • Vegueries
    • Senyorius sense veguer
    • Domini de la Vall d'Aran



    Al segle xii existien deu vegueries,[2] que es van anar ampliant. En època de Jaume el Just eren:
    • Vegueria del Bages, o de Manresa, amb la sotsvegueria del Moianès, que després passà a dependre de Barcelona, i després amb les sotsvegueries de Berga i del Lluçanès.
    • Vegueria de Barcelona, amb la sotsvegueria del Vallès, i durant un temps amb les sotsvegueries d'Igualada i el Moianès.
    • Vegueria del Berguedà, o de Berga, després sotsvegueria dependent de Manresa.
    • Vegueria de Besalú, després sotsvegueria dependent de Girona.
    • Vegueria de Camarasa, després incorporada a la de Lleida.
    • Vegueria de Camprodon.
    • Vegueria de Cervera, amb les sotsvegueries d'Agramunt i dels Prats de Rei.
    • Vegueria de Girona.
    • Vegueria de Lleida, amb la sotsvegueria de Balaguer, després anomenada vegueria de Lleida, Pallars i Camarasa.
    • Vegueria de Montblanc.
    • Vegueria d'Osona, o de Vic.
    • Vegueria del Pallars, després sotsvegueria dependent de Lleida.
    • Vegueria de la Ral (Sant Pau de Segúries), després sotsvegueria dependent d'Osona.
    • Vegueria de Ribagorça, desapareguda al segle xiv.
    • Vegueria de Ripollès, o de Ripoll, després sotsvegueria dependent d'Osona.
    • Vegueria de Tarragona.
    • Vegueria de Tàrrega.
    • Vegueria de Tortosa.
    • Vegueria de Vilafranca del Penedès, amb la sotsvegueria d'Igualada després incorporada a Barcelona.
    A més, en el Regne de Mallorca (dependent de Jaume II de Mallorca):
    • Vegueria del Rosselló, amb la sotsvegueria del Vallespir.
    • Vegueria del Conflent, o de Vilafranca de Conflent, amb la sotsvegueria del Capcir.
    • Vegueria de Cerdanya, o de Puigcerdà, amb les sotsvegueries de Baridà i de Ribes, aquesta dependent més endavant de Camprodon. Amb la divisió del tractat dels Pirineus es va crear una nova vegueria a l'Alta Cerdanya amb capital a Sallagosa.
    • A Mallorca, encara que no prengué el nom de vegueries: Veguer de la Ciutat i Veguer de Fora.
    La Vall d'Aran es mantenia com a districte singular, a més d'altres senyorius com el comtat d'Urgell i el comtat d'Empúries anomenats «territoris on no hi entra veguer».[3]
    Més endavant van aparèixer encara les vegueries d'Urgell, de Balaguer i d'Agramunt (que va comportar la desaparició de la d'Urgell) i la sotsvegueria de Lluçanès. A la segona meitat del segle xvii, després de l'annexió a França de les vegueries de Perpinyà i de Vilafranca de Conflent, Catalunya es dividia en 15 vegueries, 9 sotsvegueries i el districte especial de la Vall d'Aran.
    L'article 30 del decret de Nova Planta del 16 de gener de 1716, substituïa les vegueries per corregiments. Les 24 unitats de vegueries i sotsvegueries es van agrupar en 12 corregiments sense modificar els límits. Des d'un punt de vista geogràfic era una continuïtat de les vegueries amb un major equilibri. Políticament era la imposició del sistema de governació del regne de Castella. Popularment va sobreviure la denominació de vegueria com a sinònim de corregiment[3]
    A Occitània van sorgir igualment les vegueries. La Fenolleda va ser una vegueria dependent de Carcassona. En el ducat d'Atenes hi va haver tres vegueries: d'Atenes, de Tebes i de Levàdia.


    I will translate later, remember only few(~5) vicariates are really importants.
    Most important being the Counties of the Crown, similar to the french peerages.
    http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vescomte

    In catalan, the Viscounts and Counts are the greatest feudatories, titles like Dux, Princeps, Marchensis are:
    1)out our timeframe
    or
    2) from foreign courts/countries
    or
    3) not related to a location but to an essential status(the only catalan "Princeps" is the heir)

    The exception make the rule, one or two titles could be unic, I think for exemple if never the catalans succeed to invade and keep the Provence and Languedoc(both south France)



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    Robert Guiscard's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    I don't know a whole lot on the topic, but I believe Muslim Jinetes (light cavalrymen) served under the Crown of Aragon as mercenaries beginning in same time scope as the mod. I'll look into it more, but maybe they can first be represented as mercenaries and then Aragon can recruit their own native jinetes later on, similar to how the galloglaigh are going to work in Ireland

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    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Dûxe
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Jinetes as you're thinking were mainly from south Iberia(Andalusia, Estremadure, South Portugal)

    Denia, Granada and perhaps few smaller micro-taifates were concerned.
    Valencia is maybe the land that pourveyed the aragonese army with muslim horsemen...as this emirate have been destroyed at 1238.
    http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conques...t_de_Balansiya


    Also the catalan gentry fought as "mounted sergeants", which is the equivalent of Jinetes(castillans as andalusians). Thats unit is "Alforrats"
    You can find picture of that unit from Google reshearch.


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    Paragon's Avatar Sōkō no yari
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Spanish guy with Catalonian independist friends here. No, seriously.

    To the points you have mentioned until know

    1: Yeah, Aragon indeed had their own army with its own soldiers. It was though a VERY mercenary-heavy army though, I'll expand that later.

    2: I don't know about how do you want to balance historical accuracy vs balance and I haven't seen your starting year. Anyways, this is a map with Aragon's settlements over the times

    3: Almughavars, used short swords=javelins>crossbows>being mounted in that order. I doubt mounted Almughavars would deserve even an unit, if anything they should be the captain of the unit, like in un modded Rome or Stainless Steel, since mounted ones were usually those of higher hierarchy.

    They were, above everything elite units, capable of winning outnumbered (most notably agaisnt the turks, but the numbers look exagerated) with very strong morale and stamina, fast moving, good at ambushes (I guess being able to hide at everything should do the trick) and among all (this annoys me, because it's how they were, it's in the original medieval and a few mods remove it) they were an anti-calvary unit, with the jabalines that were good against it but also in close combat. The Almughavars were light infantry, and countered the calvary's charge with their own charge, and it worked. Some of them even managed to slip under the horse, disembowel, and if the fall didn't kill the knight, another almughavar did. Regular medieval gave them a 4 bonus agaisnt Calvary (not for spear, just that bonus) which I find accurate. They would have 0.1 armor by default and might even be vulnerable to proyectiles, though. They usually wore no armor, only simple peasant or villain clothes.

    They were mostly a mercenary unit, yes. Also they were sent to Greece because the king wanted to get rid of them, since in time of peace, they were still fight-thirsty savages and acted like bandits. Only with better training, numbers, organization and experience. Not sure how you would represent than though. The ideal, and a compesation for being such a good unit, would be making them easily to rebel/bribe, but I'm not sure if that is posible to mod.

    4: This is a bit of a annoyance for a game with his playstyle and I think no game ever applies that completely, but the Aragonese were unable to forcibly recruit levy if it wasn't defending their lands. That's why their conquering armies were heavy on mercenaries, knights, nobles and all the other troops had at least salary.

    The second annoyance, as weird as it may sound, is that the king was demanded to fight in every moderately sized battle, and sometimes in the front lines. Even when this something indeed helped (directly or otherwise, Jaume's influence in the conquest of Palma and Valentia made it possible and gained him the title the Conqueror) it also led to disasters like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Muret

    Where the king charged first, apparently drunk, was shot by a crossbow, died at the very beginning, and all the army routed. The numbers are exageratted, they areFrench after all, but not as much as you might think, you shouldn't even call this battle. Not sure how to adapt this, or if it should be adapted at all. The most "soft" way I can think of is king high chilvary and then you decide whatever the hell you do. It wasn't like that, but then again most of the things the player do aren't either.
    Last edited by Paragon; April 30, 2012 at 11:49 PM.
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    Wareg's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    The Almughavars were light infantry, and countered the calvary's charge with their own charge, and it worked. Some of them even managed to slip under the horse, disembowel, and if the fall didn't kill the knight, another almughavar did.
    The question is-how to reflect such unusual style of fighting? Simple bonus against cavalry is a bit coarse solution...

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    Paragon's Avatar Sōkō no yari
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    The question is-how to reflect such unusual style of fighting? Simple bonus against cavalry is a bit coarse solution...
    I don't see why. Javelins were specially useful agaisnt calvary (IIRC they were used agaisnt elephants back in Roman times, thought this weren't the huge asian ones but the smaller ones that got extint), and they were superb at that, and that fightstyle about slipping below the horse and stabbing his guts could be the simple CaC bonus. The only time I don't get why they should have a bonus is using crossbows agaisnt calvary, but that is a minoritary unit.

    I don't think you can have a special bonus to you charge if you are charging already charging calvary, that might do the trick too.
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    If you read and comment, there WILL be cake!

  18. #18
    Wareg's Avatar Aquilifer
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Paragon, I mean that there is no animation which can reflect ''slipping below the horse and stabbing his guts'' but of course I don't even expect new animation only for one unit...
    Such special charge bonus (against cavalry) seems to be good idea even with normal infantry charge animation but I'm also not sure if It is possible (is It possible?)
    Higher charge value isn't good solution cause It will work also agains't infantry.
    What do you mean ''CaC bonus''? I can't decode It

  19. #19
    Paragon's Avatar Sōkō no yari
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    What in the actual duck...
    Sorry, that was a Spanish acronym for bonus in close combat (Cuerpo a Cuerpo). Well, the first mess up people notice is when I have 195 posts. This might beat my anterior record, 0! Wohooo!

    Also that maneuver, which I agree it doesn't deserve the extra animation, it's not all their combat style agaisnt mounted men. I think it should be a straight up bonus because simply, Almughavars were light infantry effectively used agaisnt calvary, that's what really earned them their fame. Before being responsible of Aragon's expasion I mean.
    If we want to make it simpler, it's just +4 agaisnt mounted units, and a charge bonus akin of heavy infantry (which really, it's actually 4)
    Also I forgot like the pics show, they usually used shields.
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    Polycarpe's Avatar Back into action!
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    Default Re: [Faction Research] Crown of Aragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Paragon View Post
    Spanish guy with Catalonian independist friends here. No, seriously.

    To the points you have mentioned until know

    1: Yeah, Aragon indeed had their own army with its own soldiers. It was though a VERY mercenary-heavy army though, I'll expand that later.
    Awaiting for it.

    2: I don't know about how do you want to balance historical accuracy vs balance and I haven't seen your starting year. Anyways, this is a map with Aragon's settlements over the times
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Starting date is from 1245 to 1454. Our goal is to base the game with historical accuracy, innovative gameplay with a flavour of roleplaying elements. One feature we planned for the late campaign will be to represent in the numerous religious conflicts between Western kingdoms and it will be possible to embrace the Catholic church, being protestant and the like.

    3: Almughavars, used short swords=javelins>crossbows>being mounted in that order. I doubt mounted Almughavars would deserve even an unit, if anything they should be the captain of the unit, like in un modded Rome or Stainless Steel, since mounted ones were usually those of higher hierarchy.
    Let's say and by logical means, the mounted Almughavars will be part of the nobility, therefore part of the Aragonese knights.

    They were, above everything elite units, capable of winning outnumbered (most notably agaisnt the turks, but the numbers look exagerated) with very strong morale and stamina, fast moving, good at ambushes (I guess being able to hide at everything should do the trick) and among all (this annoys me, because it's how they were, it's in the original medieval and a few mods remove it) they were an anti-calvary unit, with the jabalines that were good against it but also in close combat. The Almughavars were light infantry, and countered the calvary's charge with their own charge, and it worked. Some of them even managed to slip under the horse, disembowel, and if the fall didn't kill the knight, another almughavar did. Regular medieval gave them a 4 bonus agaisnt Calvary (not for spear, just that bonus) which I find accurate. They would have 0.1 armor by default and might even be vulnerable to proyectiles, though. They usually wore no armor, only simple peasant or villain clothes.
    Taken note, I'll balance everything with those guys and already, javelins have +3 against cavalry.

    They were mostly a mercenary unit, yes. Also they were sent to Greece because the king wanted to get rid of them, since in time of peace, they were still fight-thirsty savages and acted like bandits. Only with better training, numbers, organization and experience. Not sure how you would represent than though. The ideal, and a compesation for being such a good unit, would be making them easily to rebel/bribe, but I'm not sure if that is posible to mod.
    My plan is to make rebels, not simple calm regions that take care of their own business until the player capture it. No, my goal is to make the game quite challenging and the rebels will be a real pain which was quite significant in France.

    4: This is a bit of a annoyance for a game with his playstyle and I think no game ever applies that completely, but the Aragonese were unable to forcibly recruit levy if it wasn't defending their lands. That's why their conquering armies were heavy on mercenaries, knights, nobles and all the other troops had at least salary.
    I would like more precise info about the Aragonese recruitment if possible but it's doable to mod with those restrictions.

    The second annoyance, as weird as it may sound, is that the king was demanded to fight in every moderately sized battle, and sometimes in the front lines. Even when this something indeed helped (directly or otherwise, Jaume's influence in the conquest of Palma and Valentia made it possible and gained him the title the Conqueror) it also led to disasters like this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Muret

    Where the king charged first, apparently drunk, was shot by a crossbow, died at the very beginning, and all the army routed. The numbers are exageratted, they areFrench after all, but not as much as you might think, you shouldn't even call this battle. Not sure how to adapt this, or if it should be adapted at all. The most "soft" way I can think of is king high chilvary and then you decide whatever the hell you do. It wasn't like that, but then again most of the things the player do aren't either.
    Not sure I can mod this but one thing however I want to do is if a sovereign stays almost all his life in a settlement, be sure he won't have good stats and even have penalties to his authority which can be represented as a king who prefer to stay in his court and being distant from his people.

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