Portuguese Army units...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Well, the title is self explanatory. Could any of the modders tell me about the Portuguese roster?

[Hengest]

Sorry I don't have time to be more polite...

Guarda de Ginetes
Cavaleiros
Cavaleiros da Ordem de São Bento de Aviz
Cavaleiros da Ordem de Cristo
Aventureiros
Besteiros do Conto
Confratres Hospitalarii
Servientes Hospitalarii
Milites Hospitalarii
Pauperes commilitones
Confratres Templi
Pauperes Servientes
Crux Ordinaria
Peones
Espingarderos
Piqueros
Rodeleros
Caballeros Villanos

CULTURAL
Armigeri militum
Rotulari
Gregarii
Praesidium
Halberdiers
Gonnes
Pedites plebei
Pedites
Cranequinier
Servili
Servientes
Milites
Sagitarii
Arbalestres
Balesteri

There's a few regionals too
Ghumarah
Al-Masmudi
al-Zenati
Cichiciquitzos

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sorry I don't have time to be more polite...

Guarda de Ginetes
Cavaleiros
Cavaleiros da Ordem de São Bento de Aviz
Cavaleiros da Ordem de Cristo
Aventureiros
Besteiros do Conto
Confratres Hospitalarii
Servientes Hospitalarii
Milites Hospitalarii
Pauperes commilitones
Confratres Templi
Pauperes Servientes
Crux Ordinaria
Peones
Espingarderos
Piqueros
Rodeleros
Caballeros Villanos

CULTURAL
Armigeri militum
Rotulari
Gregarii
Praesidium
Halberdiers
Gonnes
Pedites plebei
Pedites
Cranequinier
Servili
Servientes
Milites
Sagitarii
Arbalestres
Balesteri

There's a few regionals too
Ghumarah
Al-Masmudi
al-Zenati
Cichiciquitzos

No problem at all. Thank you very much for the descriptive reply.

I don't want to make you take time of from your mod work, but I would like to ask a couple of questions about a few these units.

Guarda de Ginetes

Are these the classical skirmisher Ginetes or do they correspond to the later period heavier equipped medium cavalry?

Confratres Hospitalarii
Confratres Templi

"Confratres" = frades = friars, correct? Which means Hospitaller Knights and Templar Knights, correct?

Espingarderos
Piqueros
Rodeleros
Caballeros Villanos

These units are named in spanish, because they are shared across Iberian Peninsula Christian Kingdoms and the engine doesn't allow different names for different factions, for the same unit, correct?

[Hengest]

Are these the classical skirmisher Ginetes or do they correspond to the later period heavier equipped medium cavalry?

"Confratres" = frades = friars, correct? Which means Hospitaller Knights and Templar Knights, correct?

These units are named in spanish, because they are shared across Iberian Peninsula Christian Kingdoms and the engine doesn't allow different names for different factions, for the same unit, correct?

1. We have a Berber Jinettes unit called al-Zenati, and these Portuguese ones are heavy cavalry
2. Yep, pretty much
3. That's right we have limitations. In some cases we've had to make mild compromises.

Thanks for your support! + rep

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thank you for the replies.

I would like to make just a small comment. During the middle ages, in Portugal (and surelly in the rest of the Iberian Peninsula), frontier troops that made raids against muslim adjacent regions were called Almogávar (sinonims >> Almograve/Almogavre/Almogárave).

Definition:

Almogávar, m. Ant. Guerreiro, que vivia nos matos, donde assaltava terras de moiros. (do árabe al-mogauir)

Translated:

Almogávar, m. Ant. Warrior, living in the wilderness, from where he assaulted moorish lands. (from arabic al-mogauir)

I had already talked about this with WesWes, at the ORG, when he was working in his MedMOD for MTW, back in 2003-2004:

Almogávar, Almogárave, Almogavre and Almograve (Portuguese language) are words derived from the Arab al-mogauir.

They were warriors that performed Almogavarias or Almogavrias (Portuguese language) all over the Iberian Peninsula during the Reconquista.

What was a Almogavaria or Almogavria?

It was a raid, performed by these men from time to time, against Moorish ocupied lands, to pillage, steal and burn. These raids were performed by the Christians as well as by the Moors (against Christian occupied lands), with the objective to destroy crops, food reserves and inflict economic damage, as well as to reap the benefits of looting.

Definition:

Almogavaria, f. Tropa, expedição, correria de Almogávares.

Translated:

Almogavaria, f. Troop, expedition, raid of Almogávares.

The most correct definition for these men is FRONTIER MEN.

Except for the professional troops of the King and of the noblemen, the knights of the religious orders and the free men of the fossado (compulsive military service - Besteiros do Conto and Cavaleiros Vilões), these men were the most professional and capable of the soldiers available to the Portuguese.

Another interesting note:

-Many of them were mounted men.

In vanilla M2TW, there is the Almughavar exclusive to Arágon. This is quite strange since they appear to be the same type of soldiers. Maybe Aragon ones were better or played a very specific role but, from what I've read in Portuguese History books, these men were in all of the Iberian Peninsula and were used by all of the Christian kingdoms and, since their name is a derivation from an arabic term, probably existed in Moorish Iberia in a similar fashion.

If you want me to contribute with historical data from my books, I could try to find more specific info.

Keep up the great work.

[Swagger]

most of the names you gave are in spanish, and in portugal we don't speak spanish

below is the correct translation of the units (although we didn't have some of those, such as the "rodeleros".. still i translated them to the closest we had)

Besteiros do Condado
Peões
Espingarderos -> Arcabuzeiros
Piqueros -> Lanceiros
Rodeleros -> Espadachins
Caballeros Villanos -> Cavaleiros Vilãos

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

most of the names you gave are in spanish, and in portugal we don't speak spanish

below is the correct translation of the units (although we didn't have some of those, such as the "rodeleros".. still i translated them to the closest we had)

Since these are shared units, they have to have a single name for all factions. That is why they had to choose a specific single name. Game limitation.

And you have some mistakes in the list:

• Besteiros do Condado is incorrect. It really was Besteiros do Conto.
• Espingarderos -> Arcabuzeiros (Correct. But they could be Mosqueteiros if they used Mosquetes).
• Piqueros -> Lanceiros (Incorrect. A Lance (Lança) is a long cavalry spear. A Pike (Pique) is a long infantry spear akin to the macedonian sarissae from the time of Philip II and Alexander the Great. So, a Lanceiro is a cavalrymen that uses shock as his main tactic and a Piqueiro is an infantrymen inserted in a tight group forming the main line of a late middle age or early renaissance army).
• Caballeros Villanos -> Cavaleiros Vilãos (Correct portuguese word in plural is Vilões, not Vilãos, therefore the correct term is Cavaleiros Vilões)

[Hengest]

Thanks Aymar, I think we have Almogavers for Portugal too and possibly outside of Iberia, I'm sure they are a mercenary unit although I can't look it up just now. But I will make sure to add it, good point

I'm not actually 100% happy about piqueros, we are trying to be very conservative about pike units. The mod ends in 1453, so I think pikes might be too late for our mod. What do you think about piqueros, have you found them to be used in 1300s?

[ALFAJI]

al-Zenati is a berber tribe as far as i know and its better to call it zenatah not al-Zenati coz its like england and english

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Thanks Aymar, I think we have Almogavers for Portugal too and possibly outside of Iberia, I'm sure they are a mercenary unit although I can't look it up just now. But I will make sure to add it, good point

I see. Well, a mercenary unit sounds a bit strange. I don't mean that the Aragonese Almhugavars aren't well depicted that way, but for the Portuguese/Spanish Almogáver, a regional unit might be more correct. Just that. Thanks for your concern.

I'm not actually 100% happy about piqueros, we are trying to be very conservative about pike units. The mod ends in 1453, so I think pikes might be too late for our mod. What do you think about piqueros, have you found them to be used in 1300s?

As you are well aware, the earliest uses of pikes in the middle ages, were the Flemish in their wars against the French (since early 13th century), the Scots in their independence wars (late 13th/early 14th century), then the Swiss against Burgundian armies (early 14th century).

In Portugal, the earliest use of pikes, in a tight coesive formation, including the first ever recorded defensive square tactic (Battle of Atoleiros), was in the Portuguese Crysis of Independance (1383-1385). But, unlike the case of the Flemish, Scots and Swiss, their users were not militiamen, but dismounted knights. This was necessary because of the great numerical superiority of Castillian knights and allied ones from Gasconne. So, in every battle fought during the crysis, the majority of Portuguese soldiers and knights fought as infantry. As such, later, in the decisive Portuguese victory at the Battle of Aljubarrota, all knights fought dismounted and used pikes. I have to refer though, that the "pikes" used in the crysis were shorter pikes, since they were effectivelly cavalry lances (about 4m) used dismounted. A bit like the long spears that the Scots used in their schiltron formations in Stirling, Falkirk and Bannockburn.

To the best of my knowledge, real militia or professional pike units, were only formed in the mid 16th century, a bit after the first appearances of the spanish Tercios. They were organized much as them, and were called (obviously) Terços.

[Ludicus]

I think we have Almogavers for Portugal too and possibly outside of Iberia, I'm sure they are a mercenary unit

Hmm, no....

Aymar

but for the Portuguese/Spanish Almogáver, a regional unit might be more correct.

Indeed. Just a small side note- from the book Portugal Militar, Compêndio da História Militar e Naval de Portugal, Carlos Selvagem,
(Use googe translate)
sic,
"...De resto, na rudimentar hierarquia militar do tempo, havia ainda os adaís, posto muito honroso, a que especialmente cumpria comandar os troços de tropa destacados para alguma correria, indo na vanguarda da hoste, à frente dos almogaveres; os almogaveres, ou guerreiros escolhidos pela sua coragem, presteza a aptidão militar, que, servindo a cavalo e sempre em armas na fronteira, constituíam corpos de escol, de contínuos empregados em correrias de forrageadores...etc"
---
Cavaleiros-Vilões = Militis Villani.

--

Besteiros do Condado is incorrect. It really was Besteiros do Conto.

Right. Well, Besteiros de Conto (de conto, de número)

1-Besteiros de garrucha: (soldiers or warriors who fought mounted on horseback)
2- Besteiros de polé : (fought on foot)
3-Besteiros de fraldilha: (fraldilha- an apron, an outer protective garment that covers primarily the front of the body)
4-Besteiros de Monte (Fugitive hunters,tracking down fugitives on the run)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Aymar

Indeed. Just a small side note- from the book Portugal Militar, Compêndio da História Militar e Naval de Portugal, Carlos Selvagem,
(Use googe translate)

Visto que sou Português, não é necessário o Google Translate.

"...De resto, na rudimentar hierarquia militar do tempo, havia ainda os adaís, posto muito honroso, a que especialmente cumpria comandar os troços de tropa destacados para alguma correria, indo na vanguarda da hoste, à frente dos almogaveres; os almogaveres, ou guerreiros escolhidos pela sua coragem, presteza a aptidão militar, que, servindo a cavalo e sempre em armas na fronteira, constituíam corpos de escol, de contínuos empregados em correrias de forrageadores...etc"
---
Cavaleiros-Vilões = Militis Villani.

Estranho. Tenho esse livro e não me lembro dessa passagem.

Portanto a vossa interpretação é que Almogáveres = Cavaleiros Vilões? Do que li, tinha claramente em mente que não eram os mesmos homens e que diferiam no seu papel.

Right. Well, Besteiros de Conto (de conto, de número)

1-Besteiros de garrucha: (soldiers or warriors who fought mounted on horseback)
2- Besteiros de polé : (fought on foot)
3-Besteiros de fraldilha: (fraldilha- an apron, an outer protective garment that covers primarily the front of the body)
4-Besteiros de Monte (Fugitive hunters,tracking down fugitives on the run)

Obrigado pela correcção e pelas respostas. Lembro-me dos dois primeiros tipos de besteiros.

Mas como é que essas definições se transmitem em relação ao mod? Os Besteiros de Conto no DotS são infantaria ou cavalaria? Existem as duas variantes? Posso adivinhar que a fraldilha será um armour upgrade para ambos?

[Swagger]

Besteiros do Condado is incorrect. It really was Besteiros do Conto.

correct

Espingarderos -> Arcabuzeiros (Correct. But they could be Mosqueteiros if they used Mosquetes).

true, i don't know the weapon for the unit

and the correct translation for espingaderos is espingardeiros

Piqueros -> Lanceiros (Incorrect. A Lance (Lança) is a long cavalry spear. A Pike (Pique) is a long infantry spear akin to the macedonian sarissae from the time of Philip II and Alexander the Great. So, a Lanceiro is a cavalrymen that uses shock as his main tactic and a Piqueiro is an infantrymen inserted in a tight group forming the main line of a late middle age or early renaissance army).

yea but that's for long spears, a short spear (even if infantry) would be the lance


therefor, the unit should be called lanceiros, unless they have a big pike, similar to hoplited, which im unsure we even used it during this time frame

Caballeros Villanos -> Cavaleiros Vilãos (Correct portuguese word in plural is Vilões, not Vilãos, therefore the correct term is Cavaleiros Vilões)

nope: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vil%C3%...ade_M.C3.A9dia


"No Portugal medieval, o termo "vilão" referia-se a um cidadão de uma cidade, vila ou concelho, não pertencendo à nobreza. Os vilões com condições económicas e sociais mais elevadas ascendiam a cavaleiros-vilãos"


cavaleiros vilãos... since the term origin is from a place (town, village, etc), the people born there are called "vilão", which the plural is "vilãos"


tho i've seen both "cavaleiros vilões" and "cavaleiros vilãos" being used

[PedroL]

Sorry for my intrusion:

Here my stuff:

-Portuguese Besteiros de Conto
The first permanent army was formed in 1331 called "besteiros do conto," supported by the "concelhos" (administrative territories).The Municipality obligation that required each township to have a specific number of people to fight as crossbowmen which were incorporated into the royal host whenever the King required it, with the purpose of having a permanent and professional military force on standby, which was controlled by the Royalty, there for reducing the Kings dependency in his vassals and other minor lords. The ranks of crossbowmen were filled with small land owners and craftsmen usually people who had some possessions and could afford a crossbow. Their pulley crossbow had a metallic arch, armed with a pulley system, making it very effective and with a excellent penetration power. They were commanded by local captains, which in their turn were under the orders of a higher hierarchy commander.

-Vilan Knights (Cavaleiros Vilões)
The Municipality obligation that required each township to have a specific number of people to fight as crossbowmen also applied to mounted forces: Cavaleiros Vilãoes “Vilan Knights” were a cavalry force that could be composed of people from several social statuses, as long as they were rich enough to own horses and arms. They would fulfill military service under the king, having in return a series of privileges, like the concession of charter letters. They were a valuable military force to the king, as he would be less dependent of the aristocracy.

Espero que tenha ajudado.
cumprimentos
Pedro

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

true, i don't know the weapon for the unit

and the correct translation for espingaderos is espingardeiros

But, since there were no espingardas (rifles) in the middle ages, you can't call them that.

It's quite simple:

Carrier and user of an Arcabuz ---> Arcabuzeiro
Carrier and user of a Mosquete ---> Mosqueteiro
Carrier and user of a Espingarda ---> Espingardeiro

But this later term was never used since, by the time espingardas (rifles) were used, units had other more specific designations acording to their role in the army.

yea but that's for long spears, a short spear (even if infantry) would be the lance

therefor, the unit should be called lanceiros, unless they have a big pike, similar to hoplited, which im unsure we even used it during this time frame

Sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. First, hoplites never used a pike, they used spears. It was a long spear, but nevertheless a spear. Pike implies two-handed use. Always.

You mistake the current popular misuse, in Portugal, made by people who aren't knowledgeable (aka grammar error). Lança is exclusivelly a cavalry weapon. Just go to the Portuguese Armed Forces and ask if any infantry regiment ever used "Lanceiros" as a designation. Not one. On the other hand, many cavalry regiments did. I know what I'm talking about.

In addition, most of the male ascendants of my family have been military carrier professionals for generations, and my father was a military historian in the Cavalry arm for 40 years, and what I'm saying is based on their knowledge. So, yes, I do know what I'm talking about.

Sinonims for short spear in the Portuguese language:

Azagaia (short spear - sometimes used as throwing spear)
Venábulo (spear)
Zarguncho (spear)

Maybe you should check a good Portuguese language dictionary before you post opinions based on the current misuse of designations (aka plain ignorance).

nope: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vil%C3%...ade_M.C3.A9dia

"No Portugal medieval, o termo "vilão" referia-se a um cidadão de uma cidade, vila ou concelho, não pertencendo à nobreza. Os vilões com condições económicas e sociais mais elevadas ascendiam a cavaleiros-vilãos"

cavaleiros vilãos... since the term origin is from a place (town, village, etc), the people born there are called "vilão", which the plural is "vilãos"


tho i've seen both "cavaleiros vilões" and "cavaleiros vilãos" being used

Let me repeat this (in big letters to see if you can grasp the concept):

Vilãos is not a Portuguese word.

It's people who make the mistake of "if Vilão is singular then Vilãos must be plural...". But this is incorrect. It's the same with dogs or bread --> You say "cão" but you dont say "cãos", you say "cães". You also say "pão" but you dont say "pãos", you say "pães".The correct word is "Vilões."

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Right. Well, Besteiros de Conto (de conto, de número)

1-Besteiros de garrucha: (soldiers or warriors who fought mounted on horseback)
2- Besteiros de polé : (fought on foot)
3-Besteiros de fraldilha: (fraldilha- an apron, an outer protective garment that covers primarily the front of the body)
4-Besteiros de Monte (Fugitive hunters,tracking down fugitives on the run)

I know that this is a bit abusive and I don't want to nag you, but I would like, if you could, explain to me the origin of the designation Besteiros de polé.

I can understand Garrucha, Fraldilha and Monte (this last one is self-explanatory). Reading in a Portuguese language dictionary:

Garrucha, f. Pau curto com que se armavam as bestas.

Translation:

Garrucha, f. Short stick with which crossbows were armed.

Fraldilha, Ant. Espécie de avental usado por certo corpo de besteiros: "capitão dos besteiros de fraldilha".

Translation:

Fraldilha, Ant. Type of apron used by specific corp of crossbowmen: "captain of the fraldilha crossbowmen".

But I seem unable to understand:

Polé, f. Antigo instrumento de suplício

Translation:

Polé, f. Ancient torture device

Do you know the origin or motive for such a designation?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Sorry for my intrusion:

Here my stuff:

-Portuguese Besteiros de Conto
The first permanent army was formed in 1331 called "besteiros de conto," supported by the "concelhos" (administrative territories).The Municipality obligation that required each township to have a specific number of people to fight as crossbowmen which were incorporated into the royal host whenever the King required it, with the purpose of having a permanent and professional military force on standby, which was controlled by the Royalty, therefore reducing the Kings dependency in his vassals and other minor lords. The ranks of crossbowmen were filled with small land owners and craftsmen usually people who had some possessions and could afford a crossbow. Their pulley crossbow had a metallic arch, armed with a pulley system, making it very effective and with a excellent penetration power. They were commanded by local captains, which in their turn were under the orders of a higher hierarchy commander.

-Vilan Knights (Cavaleiros Vilões)
The Municipality obligation that required each township to have a specific number of people to fight as crossbowmen also applied to mounted forces: Cavaleiros Vilões “Vilan Knights” were a cavalry force that could be composed of people from several social statuses, as long as they were rich enough to own horses and arms. They would fulfill military service under the king, having in return a series of privileges, like the concession of charter letters. They were a valuable military force to the king, as he would be less dependent of the aristocracy.

Espero que tenha ajudado.
cumprimentos
Pedro

It does. Good information is always useful. Thank you.

BTW, I corrected a couple of typos...

[Ludicus]

Estranho. Tenho esse livro e não me lembro dessa passagem.

The last paragrapahs at the bottom of page 5; page 6, first paragraphs.
Últimos parágrafos da página 5 (Primeira Época, Primeiro Periodo) e primeiros parágrafos da página 6.

but I would like, if you could, explain to me the origin of the designation Besteiros de polé.

Page 101

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Página 101, Capitulo Terceiro Período, subtítulo A Bestaria de Conto, reza assim,
"O seu valor e previlégios variavam com a perfeição das armas, besteiros de garrucha que serviam a cavalo, com armaduras (arnesados) ou sem armaduras (singelos);besteiros de polé que serviam a pé, alguns também chamados besteiros de fraldilha por usarem avental de coiro que os defendia dos virotões inimigos..."
----
Penso que a denominação tem origem na besta de roldana (polé); a besta era armada com um sistema de roldanas ou polé. (Hoje em dia chama-se besta recurva a que não possui um sistema de roldanas, mas estas têm maior poder de penetração)

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

The last paragrapahs at the bottom of page 5; page 6, first paragraphs.
Últimos parágrafos da página 5 (Primeira Época, Primeiro Periodo) e primeiros parágrafos da página 6.

Ah! I got it.

It starts with:

Como supremo chefe civil e militar, o rei...

And ends with:

...os caminhos, vaus de rios, passos dos montes, todo o país.

My memory isn't what is used to be...

I should have checked the book before posting.

Page 101

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Página 101, Capitulo Terceiro Período, subtítulo A Bestaria de Conto, reza assim,
"O seu valor e previlégios variavam com a perfeição das armas, besteiros de garrucha que serviam a cavalo, com armaduras (arnesados) ou sem armaduras (singelos);besteiros de polé que serviam a pé, alguns também chamados besteiros de fraldilha por usarem avental de coiro que os defendia dos virotões inimigos..."

Ok, I see the paragraph.

It starts with:

Como o uso da besta se tivesse generalizado...

And ends with:

...por caçarem à besta pelos montes.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Penso que a denominação tem origem na besta de roldana (polé); a besta era armada com um sistema de roldanas ou polé. (Hoje em dia chama-se besta recurva a que não possui um sistema de roldanas, mas estas têm maior poder de penetração)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sim, a tua explicação parece lógica. Eu só não consegui encontrar uma equivalência para polé que explicasse o seu significado correcto ou o comparasse a uma roldana. O que é mais frustrante, é que já vi ambos os tipos de besta a serem municiados e eu vi claramente a engrenagem e as pegas rotativas, muito parecidas com as que se encontram nos barcos à vela modernos. O significado no dicionário é demasiado restrictivo e não lança nenhuma luz sobre o tipo de mecanismo envolvido no tal aparelho de suplício.

Translated:
Yes, your explanation seems quite logical. I just couldn't find an equivalence for polé that explained its proper meaning or compared it to a pulley. What is more frustrating, is that I've seen both types of crossbows being loaded and I clearly saw the gear and the rotating handles, quite like those found in modern sailboats. The dictionary meaning is too restrictive and really doesn't shed a light on the mechanism type involved in said torture device.

Obrigado pela explicação e pela paciência. Devo acrescentar que é muito bom aperceber-me de duas coisas:

• Que a facção Portuguesa está em boas mãos.
• Que é um Português conhecedor e interessado a fornecer os dados históricos para aquele que julgo ser o mais perfeito mod para a época medieval (faz-me lembrar o EB em espírito e perfeccionismo).

[Ludicus]

Aymar, my friend, I don´t belong to any dev team.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A minha pequena intervenção nesta conversa interessante foi puramente acidental, foi um mero acaso. Já agora aproveito a oportunidade para te cumprimentar e agradecer o Europa Barbarorum, que é, como todos sabemos, o melhor dos mods até hoje já feitos; inultrapassável, imprescíndivel, enfim excepcional a todos os níveis.