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Thread: Gas Prices

  1. #81

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    That's not sparse in the U.S., that is the norm. There aren't many places in the U.S. where a passenger train/subway service is available. Buses are limited to larger municipalities mostly, except for school buses.
    You can hide your light behind the hill,
    Offer up your freedom and your will,
    You can build your house on the shifting sand,
    As for me I'll fight where I stand.

    Lyrics from "Fight Where I Stand", Needfire (Celtic Rock Band)

  2. #82
    orange slice's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    my histroy teacher told me that in 5-10 years the country of Brazil will be running it's cars on strictly suger and not gas, but we can't do that here, because we don't have enough suger to go around, but if we use vegetable oil, or ethonol, or even corn starch(maybe) we could power our cars making the gas fall a bit to a decent range




    Member of the TWC History Club

  3. #83

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Invent efficient cars that run on alternate fuels, then talk.





  4. #84

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Well, there is electricity, motors can get 3 times the efficency per joule compared to engines.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by orange slice
    my histroy teacher told me that in 5-10 years the country of Brazil will be running it's cars on strictly suger and not gas, but we can't do that here, because we don't have enough suger to go around, but if we use vegetable oil, or ethonol, or even corn starch(maybe) we could power our cars making the gas fall a bit to a decent range
    This is unlikely to work for several reasons: First, ethanol is very energy inefficient to make...so you will have to produce a lot of ethanol just to make more ethanol. Second, oil production will continue falling, so price will continue to rise unless the alternative can ramp up more quickly--an unlikely scenario.

    The real answers come in the form of improving efficiency at a pace that exceeds production loss and/or using non-CO2 producing energy sources to make up any gaps.
    You can hide your light behind the hill,
    Offer up your freedom and your will,
    You can build your house on the shifting sand,
    As for me I'll fight where I stand.

    Lyrics from "Fight Where I Stand", Needfire (Celtic Rock Band)

  6. #86
    Habelo's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    yea even in sweden gas is ****ing expensive....
    You have a certain mentality, a "you vs them" and i know it is hard to see, but it is only your imagination which makes up enemies everywhere. I haven't professed anything but being neutral so why Do you feel the need to defend yourself from me?. Truly What are you defending? when there is nobody attacking?

  7. #87
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Well, there is electricity, motors can get 3 times the efficency per joule compared to engines.
    Source please

  8. #88

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Brushless motors are typically 85-90% efficient
    Source: Wikipedia, motors,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

    The efficiencies of good modern Otto-cycle engines range between 20 and 25 percent—in other words, only this percentage of the heat energy of the fuel is transformed into mechanical energy.
    Source: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...on_Engine.html

    Is that enough sources for you?

  9. #89
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by RusskiSoldat
    Invent efficient cars that run on alternate fuels, then talk.
    Like this one?


    Running a car on vegetable oil isn't that difficult, you Russians did it decades ago so I'm sure the West can figure it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Harvest
    This is unlikely to work for several reasons: First, ethanol is very energy inefficient to make.
    Yes this is a problem.
    But does anybody know HOW inefficient it is?
    I would realy like to know because I have never seen a figure.

    I do know that running your LADA on vegetable oil bought in a supermarket in stead of Diesel is cheaper in Europe because you pay far less tax that way. (it's also illegal in my country for the same reason, but some people still do it)
    If it realy took that much energy to produce ethanol or vegetable oil, wouldn't if be more expensive?
    Last edited by Erik; May 10, 2006 at 12:30 AM.



  10. #90

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    well if someone reinvented the engine that would end the gas issue altogether. i forgot where i heard this from but it went something along the lines of :"If Henry Ford were to come back today, he would wonder why we still use the internal combustion engine."

  11. #91
    Zuwxiv's Avatar Bear Claus
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    I read an article in Popular Science that stated that ethanol fuel would cost like 4.60 a gallon, at least. (USD)

    A combination water-resavour (spelling?) system converting H20 into hydrogen through solar cells and other resources would work best, I believe.

    Currently worshipping Necrobrit *********** Thought is Quick
    I'm back for the TWCrack

  12. #92

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    i think to government would thwart any attempts to create a practical new engine since they get so much money from the oil giants and taxes

  13. #93
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by sazabi04
    well if someone reinvented the engine that would end the gas issue altogether. i forgot where i heard this from but it went something along the lines of :"If Henry Ford were to come back today, he would wonder why we still use the internal combustion engine."
    Because Henri Ford invented the internal combustion engine

    But yes, piston engines are very inefficient and too complicated and expensive to make.
    Quasiturbines are much better:

    http://auto.howstuffworks.com/quasit....htm/printable



  14. #94

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    hey thats kind of like the rotarys. except the emissions are really high in rotarys.

  15. #95
    SoggyFrog's Avatar Sort of a Protest Frog
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    El Guapo's link doesn't do a good job covering conservation and changes in energy efficiency. It simply relies on Jevon's paradox. The jist of that is that saving money on energy will lead to more 'saved' money being spent on consuming more energy.

    However: if that money wasn't saved, it would still be spent, but by the oil industry rather than the conserving consumer; the oil supply is going down, so more money must be spent on it, therefore it is not free to be spent on consumption; the money is not necessarily spent towards increasing consumption. It is the second argument that most clearly denies the case of Jevon's paradox even existing with regards to oil.

    If oil prices simply climb but do not jump significantly, then a steady (albeit quickly-paced) shift towards conservation and renewable energy is possible. There will be motivation for the consumer and industry. I'm not sure exactly of the status of Sweden's movement from oil but those are the sort of measures that could make the change in society and economy.

  16. #96
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Source: Wikipedia, motors,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor


    Source: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...on_Engine.html

    Is that enough sources for you?
    Fair enough but was the implications of your statement that electric cars are more efficient than oil powered cars in terms of energy in>energy out.

    Peter

  17. #97
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by sazabi04
    hey thats kind of like the rotarys. except the emissions are really high in rotarys.
    It's a rotor engine, just like the Wankel engine, but unlike Wankels design (with the triangular rotors) it has a good compression so the fuel gets fully burned.

    There is also a slightly more complicated version (also im my link) with carriages that improve the compression rate even further enabeling foto-detonation, the cleanest and most efficient way to burn/explode gasoline.

    Foto-detonation can happen in piston engines too (and sometimes this happens by accident, especially with old engines), but a piston engine can't handle the high forces foto-detonation generates so engineers have always tried to avoid it.



  18. #98

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    Source: Wikipedia, motors,
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor


    Source: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_...on_Engine.html

    Is that enough sources for you?
    Unfortunately, this isn't quite right either. The comparisons are not apples-to-apples. An electric motor is much more efficient, but it suffers from some of the same losses as the internal combustion engine ... "mechanical" being a key thing to remember.

    More importantly, one has to consider the whole energy cycle to determine efficiency. An electric motor is using electricity that is not produced at 100% efficiency. In fact, if what I'm reading is correct, a coal plant (where virtually all the swing capacity will come from for cars) is only about 40% efficient. Then you have power transmission, charging, and battery losses to consider. (And for both gasoline and coal I'm ignoring extraction, transportation, and refining/processing effective energy consumption.)

    I'm not exactly sure where to draw the box on all of this, but some "cradle-to-grave" efficiencies are needed. I would advocate providing a "CO2 efficiency" for example.

    If you want to compare hydrogen/fuel cell systems then you start finding that the overall efficiency is not really that great. The 3:1 factor originally stated (that you responded to) sounds great in taking a casual look, but it is not really giving an accurate account either. Without doing a lot of digging and calculating I'm not sure how to measure the efficiency either. There is a lot to consider, and many different types of efficiency could be stated.

    EDIT: Also, some diesel and internal combustion engines can manage about 40% efficiency at present.
    Last edited by Red Harvest; May 10, 2006 at 08:25 PM.
    You can hide your light behind the hill,
    Offer up your freedom and your will,
    You can build your house on the shifting sand,
    As for me I'll fight where I stand.

    Lyrics from "Fight Where I Stand", Needfire (Celtic Rock Band)

  19. #99

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    With electricity, you can use nukes to get the energy, with no CO2 whatsoever.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Gas Prices

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee1026
    With electricity, you can use nukes to get the energy, with no CO2 whatsoever.
    Lee,

    This is an erroneous assumption, but a common and understandable mistake. When you do this sort of engineering economic analysis you have to look at the system as a whole and ask yourself the following question: "Where is the excess capacity for electricity production?" It's in coal. If you add solar or wind, you automatically back out coal (or at best natural gas.) Nuclear will similarly back out another fossil fuel. Hydroelectric also backs out fossil fuels. The swing in production is in coal. Over the past two decades more natural gas has been used for electric...and again this allowed backing out coal. Ironically (and predictably), nat. gas value has increased as demand for it increased, so now coal is comparatively attractive again. Natural gas facilities are cheaper to build and can be smaller (as well as environmental and other benefits), but coal is a cheaper fuel again.

    Things that are in essence fully utilized can not be used as the basis for justifying increased electricity consumption. That extra electricity consumption will come from fossil fuels. To understand why, just reverse the case: "If I reduced electricity consumption what source would be shut off first?" That would be coal or natural gas because they have higher operating costs. The others are capital intensive, but inexpensive to operate once the initial expenditure is complete. Until you have excess capacity in renewables (not forecast by anyone as far as I know) you will be forced to rely on fossil fuels for incremental capacity.

    There is very little chance of enough fissionable nuke facilities being built to power the U.S. Fusion possibly some day, but fission has disposal and other issues that have still not been worked out after all these decades.
    You can hide your light behind the hill,
    Offer up your freedom and your will,
    You can build your house on the shifting sand,
    As for me I'll fight where I stand.

    Lyrics from "Fight Where I Stand", Needfire (Celtic Rock Band)

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