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Thread: TROM's future?

  1. #1
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default TROM's future?

    What's the plans for the future with this mod?

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    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Well I would say as Yarkis is inactive he is taking a break.

    Probably got depressed by the general state of modding and the fact he put a considerable amount of work into something only for everyone to flock to darthmod.

  3. #3
    Erwin Rommel's Avatar EYE-PATCH FETISH
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    I believe TROM's merits will redeem itself in the future. Then again, nobody cant deny the successful modular approach of a darthmod

    (Its clickable by the way....An S2 overhaul mod.)

    Seriously. Click it. Its the only overhaul mod that's overhauling enough to bring out NEW clans
    Masaie. Retainer of Akaie|AntonIII






  4. #4
    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erwin Rommel View Post
    I believe TROM's merits will redeem itself in the future. Then again, nobody cant deny the successful modular approach of a darthmod
    Not to have a dig at Darth but I honestly don't think there is anything particularly special about DMS, it simply has a lot of fans carried over from Empire which in itself is self perpetuating. If I were the average guy looking to improve game play I would download the most popular mod (by posts/threads) because it might seem it would probably seem to be the best without even looking at the others. From experience it is very depressing spending time on a mod only for people not to download it/comment on it. I also probably would not bother read the credits and appreciate that it isnt just Darthmod, its Darth et al mod.

    Take unit variety v3.05. V2 got ~17000 downloads in a month which was awesome and persuaded me to make 3.05 for example. I allowed v3 to be placed in Darthmod which may be part of it but v3/3.05 only got ~3000 downloads and very few comments (currently around 3500) as a result i will not even consider making a v4, it just does not seem worth it. I can only image Yarkis may feel the same though that's just speculation of course.
    Last edited by The Hedge Knight; November 27, 2011 at 12:38 PM.

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    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Dear Hedge, you seem to have very high criteria for a "successful" or popular mod. As far as I'm concerned, if a mod gets 500 downloads, the response is good, and if it gets over 1000, it's very good - I mean, a thousand people thinking the mod worth downloading, that's a lot!

    Yarkis can count on me supporting TROM with the complete version of ACC, because he's handled my work with respect. Radious may also count on it, but he has his own recolour project working for him nowadays, so no longer has much use for ACC. I also feel a certain gratitude towards DaVinci since the modding days of M2TW (Chivalry II: The Sicilian Vespers), so ACC will probably be available for S2R(+), too, if there's a demand for it. All other candidates have to argue very well for the right to integrate the completed ACC project with their work, should they be interested in it.
    Last edited by Demokritos; November 28, 2011 at 05:06 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
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  6. #6
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    That doesn't necessarily have to be so. I came to TROM much after DMS and then co-playtested S2r+ and TROM3 all together.
    Perhaps Yarkis should have started the new TROM version with the inclusion of ROTS which he didn't buy but since he's now inactive we may only speculate.

    I think TROM3 is better than DMS under many aspects, the only thing I really hate is the movement speeds, much too slow. So slow I stopped playing it utterly.

    S2R+ is a very credible mod, considerably harder than the others I recommend everyone to at least try it. Personally, I think the 3d battles with S2r+ are the best in the game but the strategic side is quite daunting at the beginning (lots of compromises, lots of stuff to read before you can put troops and buildings in good use). TROM3 blended some of the best concepts around and yarkis is a Guru. I wouldn't be surprised to see a new TROM but I would really love for him in person to come over and write down something about my initial thread question.

  7. #7

    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    Dear Hedge, you seem to have very high criteria for a "successful" or popular mod. As far as I'm concerned, if a mod gets 500 downloads, the response is good, and if it gets over 1000, it's very good - I mean, a thousand people thinking the mod worth downloading, that's a lot!
    I'd have to agree, the download page shows almost 22 thousand downloads. I don't know if that's for every versiom or not, but still pretty good.

  8. #8

    Default Re: TROM's future?

    I wanna see what you guys can do for the new Fall of the Samurai DLC!!
    Darthmod empire was awesome as was TROM but darthmod had an edge, Your french units changed after the revolution but darth's didn't but Darth had better uniforms......ANYWAY!
    I tried Darthmod for Shogun first (Sorry... :\) and I really didn't like it but the added technology and correct unit names just make this mod amazing! I'd hate to see it become inactive!

  9. #9
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    There are many potential improvements to be added to TROM3 and I would just like to throw in TWO to make the point clear on how it is absolutely possible (and definitely not that hard) to beat DMS as the most downloaded mod out there. Most downloaded doesn't mean best of course... but I guess Yarkis is not looking at DMS in the negative way and finding it to be the cause of lack of interest for further modding.

    So far he just said he was taking a break not that he would abandon the project.

    1) I have already pointed out the necessity to increase the movement speeds of all units. We're currently between 8 and 9 times slower than realistic where realistic IS possible and a major change in this sense happened in S2r+ where we counterbalanced the immediate threat coming from ALL bordering regions at the same time with faster recruitment times. So it IS possible and of course auspicable. The lack of action in this specific aspect of the mod turned out to be a game killer for me.
    On one side you must conquer rather quickly before your time expires and your campaign is declared unsuccessful, on the other side, you battle with the Realm Divide which could be further tweaked, if you conquer too fast. Unfortunately with TROM's movement speeds it is almost impossible to really conquer your goals in time. Go check out my outcome in ROTS with vanilla (of course), lost the campaign at the very last turn of the game with just THAT territory missing and my armies already disembarked and ready for the final siege.

    2) TROM has evolved with the right concept of the localized units (of which *I* am the original inventor, in case you didn't know but well, there are many things you will never just know heheh) but failed to restrict unit building to realistic measures of ashi/sam ratio. We have enough historical data to compel the building of such armies, not based on faction (1 sam unit from each defeated faction) but on province-based concepts. The mixing of the MANPOWER idea I have in mind with the localized "ronin" idea Yarkis currently implemented would allow both realistic and realistically limited army building.
    Implementing this faction-based capping (which is in turn province-based) is of extreme complexity but Yarkis not only proved it is possible but also has already partly developed the base of these mechanics into his mod.

    There's plenty of material to work on, it's all about what he intends to do for the future. For example, I wouldn't have counselled for the minor clan playable faction implementations but I did even propose to gift Yarkis with ROTS (as well as all other DLCs avaliable now and in the future). It's all in his hands really.

  10. #10

    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hedge Knight View Post
    Not to have a dig at Darth but I honestly don't think there is anything particularly special about DMS, it simply has a lot of fans carried over from Empire which in itself is self perpetuating. If I were the average guy looking to improve game play I would download the most popular mod (by posts/threads) because it might seem it would probably seem to be the best without even looking at the others. From experience it is very depressing spending time on a mod only for people not to download it/comment on it. I also probably would not bother read the credits and appreciate that it isnt just Darthmod, its Darth et al mod.

    Take unit variety v3.05. V2 got ~17000 downloads in a month which was awesome and persuaded me to make 3.05 for example. I allowed v3 to be placed in Darthmod which may be part of it but v3/3.05 only got ~3000 downloads and very few comments (currently around 3500) as a result i will not even consider making a v4, it just does not seem worth it. I can only image Yarkis may feel the same though that's just speculation of course.
    I am very sorry to read these from you. I mod for many years and it is not coincidence or fame driven that people like my work so much. I remind that my first version of DMS got some very harsh criticism and people that are jealous of me and wait me in the corner found opportunity to make unbelievable comments, not only here in TWCENTER. This is the proof, that in order to keep my fame I must always produce the best, and not use my mystical fame powers.

    In addition, all Shogun 2 mods have dropped in downloads the last months, because of lack of interest in this game, even mine. I can remove your unit variety mod (which I added to please the fans and promote your work) so that you get some more downloads and self confidence.

  11. #11
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    There's simply very little margin of improvement in S2 with the current modding picture. I don't think you took THK's statement correctly, he's just pointing out that in his case (but perhaps not in Yarkis' case) he's got no stimulus in carrying on because of the few downloads (and, projected little traffic on the forums).

    It's quite obvious that if one mod/dder is successful will generate lots of traffic leaving little room for others. In my case, I am at Shimazu VH DMS and I barely find a challenge at all while disliking the unit balance (totally wrong base concepts imo, in fact and as amply predicted, I am now fighting super unit vs super unit battles now). With S2r+ I have difficulty in managing the unit caps which I find too restrictive and, in the end, not grasping the needed match of historic army compositions, while in TROM3 I can't play because of slow movement/recruiting speeds.

    I can say neither of the 3 satisfies me enough to grant further playing of the game and that's perhaps what goes on with the overall picture of other players. Probably they all tried all the possible mods looking for some entertainment.
    CA is defective, we know that (very few know this as deeply as I do) and modders aren't expected to do a DEV's job.

    I think the game needs a major overhaul that might not even be in the grasp of a "mere modder". Such overhaul, as I proposed to you not too long ago, is quite an enterprise having to start from the remake from scratch of the entire economic system. Really the unit balance seems to be the easiest of all fixes but, in the end, is it worth the trouble?

    In a way I think I understand what THK has been saying beneath the lines. The remake I have in mind would be very challenging, a real revolution, but it would be highly impopular especially at the beginning. Yes... maybe not worth the trouble but what options do we have... cast the game aside? Again?

  12. #12
    The Hedge Knight's Avatar Fierce When Cornered
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DARTH VADER View Post
    In addition, all Shogun 2 mods have dropped in downloads the last months, because of lack of interest in this game, even mine. I can remove your unit variety mod (which I added to please the fans and promote your work) so that you get some more downloads and self confidence.
    No, don't worry about it & no point doing that. 3500 is pretty good and I was just using it as an example of falling stimulus.

  13. #13
    Obi Wan Asterix's Avatar IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    TROM3 will have new life lads, we will make a new version soon, we needed a break and now we've had it.... don't take Yarkis's silence as an indicator... he is a productive one
    All are welcome to relax at Asterix's Campagnian Villa with its Vineyard and Scotchbarrel
    Prefer to stay at home? Try Asterix's Megamamoth FM2010 Update
    Progeny of the retired Great Acutulus (If you know who he is you have been at TWC too long) and wooer of fine wombs to spawn 21 curial whining snotslingers and be an absentee daddy to them

    Longest Serving Staff Member of TWC under 3 Imperators** 1st Speaker of the House ** Original RTR Team Member (until 3.2) ** Knight of Saint John ** RNJ, Successors, & Punic Total War Team Member

    TROM 3 Team - Founder of Ken no Jikan **** Back with a modding vengeance! Yes I will again promise to take on the work of 5 mods and dissapear!

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    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    We live to serve.
    Please, when the brainstorming phase kicks in, pull me there!

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    Obi Wan Asterix's Avatar IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by [G-Shock] View Post
    We live to serve.
    Please, when the brainstorming phase kicks in, pull me there!
    PM Yarkis m8... new blood would be most welcome
    All are welcome to relax at Asterix's Campagnian Villa with its Vineyard and Scotchbarrel
    Prefer to stay at home? Try Asterix's Megamamoth FM2010 Update
    Progeny of the retired Great Acutulus (If you know who he is you have been at TWC too long) and wooer of fine wombs to spawn 21 curial whining snotslingers and be an absentee daddy to them

    Longest Serving Staff Member of TWC under 3 Imperators** 1st Speaker of the House ** Original RTR Team Member (until 3.2) ** Knight of Saint John ** RNJ, Successors, & Punic Total War Team Member

    TROM 3 Team - Founder of Ken no Jikan **** Back with a modding vengeance! Yes I will again promise to take on the work of 5 mods and dissapear!

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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obi Wan Asterix View Post
    TROM3 will have new life lads, we will make a new version soon, we needed a break and now we've had it.... don't take Yarkis's silence as an indicator... he is a productive one
    You Good Sir just made my day. This mod is simply amazing.
    +rep
    ''Πας μη Έλλην, βάρβαρος.''

  17. #17

    Default

    Great news that trom will be updated! It's sad when mods die.
    Under the patronage of John I Tzimisces

  18. #18

    Default Re: TROM's future?

    @ Obi Wan
    It is most welcome news that TROM 3 will have an update, most of the enjoyment I have had playing STW 2 I owe to your MOD

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    Obi Wan Asterix's Avatar IN MEDIO STAT VIRTUS
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    Quote Originally Posted by GERMANICUS View Post
    @ Obi Wan
    It is most welcome news that TROM 3 will have an update, most of the enjoyment I have had playing STW 2 I owe to your MOD
    Thanks, m8 we share that

    My project is minor factions... we hope to enable all minor factions, and also make their family trees and starting factors more historical
    All are welcome to relax at Asterix's Campagnian Villa with its Vineyard and Scotchbarrel
    Prefer to stay at home? Try Asterix's Megamamoth FM2010 Update
    Progeny of the retired Great Acutulus (If you know who he is you have been at TWC too long) and wooer of fine wombs to spawn 21 curial whining snotslingers and be an absentee daddy to them

    Longest Serving Staff Member of TWC under 3 Imperators** 1st Speaker of the House ** Original RTR Team Member (until 3.2) ** Knight of Saint John ** RNJ, Successors, & Punic Total War Team Member

    TROM 3 Team - Founder of Ken no Jikan **** Back with a modding vengeance! Yes I will again promise to take on the work of 5 mods and dissapear!

  20. #20
    [G-Shock]'s Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: TROM's future?

    The problem with S2 is the AI, as usual.
    CA has developed STW in different mods, adding few features and great 3d models without ever really patching the strategic AI. So... it's normal that every player plays vanilla and gets disappointed, then move to a mod, gets disappointed, to another mod, fails again, and then when he's tried everything the game is over.

    Of all the mods, I wouldn't know which one to pick best because, to me, none of them solved the main problem. Considering the skill of the modders involved sometimes I doubt the solution might be reachable by a mere modder. Some miracles only a DEV can do. However, I also saw some pretty BAD design moves made by the modders and that's why I don't despair a solution might possibly still exist.

    DMS is a wonderful mod and its real power is in the diplomatic balance it gives. Some traits were modified, along with several retainer bonuses and there are many options to customize the game. Unfortunately, since Darth has always had this "commercial attitude" he always cared too much about making a mod that was not too far from the original game concepts in fear the community would be unhappy. I don't really understand this approach for it's because the community (and I am putting myself too in this complaint which is also a complaint-to-self) never really punished CA on the market that it kept building mediocre mods over a mass of failing design choices.
    So Darth kept the units upgradable, tendencially to infinite, and you end up with 400 men vs 20 men (general) without being able either to rout them or kill them until, ultimately, their reinforcements arrive and it's game over.
    In DMS you can see yari ashigaru beat katana samurai uphill as well as cavalry win over spears in the woods.

    It's the concept of super units, by mid game you could change the sprites and play Space Marines vs Space Orcs. As fantastic as unrealistic. It happens because Darth never wanted to stop units from becoming super. There are morale, backcharge, guard, terrain numbers in the mathematics that can't be altered and the more you sway from the 0xp level the more these factors become irrelevant. He was just afraid NOT to give the community their petty troops with high experience just like you could buy experience at the supermarket and this choice he took has had its consequences but it really comes from CA.
    Figure out how long a man could survive campaigning in Sengoku with disease, combat losses, betrayal, attrition, wounds and so on. CA replaces dead men but the new men have the same experience as the ones you just lost. That should drop the unit experience but it doesn't and since the autodisband parameter is too low, by making sure a unit is never utterly destroyed (and it's easy, a unit survives even with just 10 men standing!) in a few turns that unit is restored to power and this, in the long run, turns it super (it keeps killing and acquiring XPs but it can never lose these XP).
    With the rest being average and this flaw with combat being a critical no-go for me (try the arquebues and you'll miss the balearic slingers), DMS lasted half a day on my PC.

    TROM took a different approach but with other problematics that remained unsolved.
    The Alpha and the Omega is the movement speed. I simply refuse to accept it takes me 9 months to perform a move that in reality took 10 days (one ninth of a single turn).
    The results of this choice are that you will beat the AI army on the field and be too depleted to carry on and conquer the castle which, when empty, is defended by army-size garrisons. At high difficulty levels, you end up beating the AI on the field time and time again without ever reaching the province it comes from until you realize you must have killed 5 generations of men but they keep coming (it's CA's fault but this could be solved by mods).

    There's little possibility of blitzkrieg just like speed wasn't essential in war and more than once I just resigned because there was no way to reach in time a province that was mandatory to capture in the scenario. I think it takes about 5 years to circumnavigate Japan, go compare that to Columbus' crossing of the Atlantic and you have got an idea of how offset the movement speeds are.
    If the AI could be taught to garrison its newly conquered provinces until they are ready to spawn new troops... but the higher the level the higher the bonuses the AI gets, the result is no need to add repression values. I have a few ideas on how it could be done myself but as I said I won't explain details.
    On the other hand the fact you can recruit native units in the newly conquered clan domains is a very good one (of course ... considering I pushed out ZOR/AOR from RTR years and years ago lol) but you have 1 sam unit (ronin, supposedly) and no limits on the ashigaru while the ashigaru become with no limits only very late in the game. Tech tree researches are excruciatingly slow as well...
    There is a way to limit manpower with the right caps and incorporate in your army the army design historically ascertained for every particular major clan in the game but this requires a major overhaul that only Trom3 has partially done...

    ... and so we get to S2r+.
    In S2r+ we surpassed the speed of movement (go check that out). Not realistic but a much more realistic compromise. You can reach a neighboring castle in less than 1 turn and this means you must always keep your guard up.
    The mod focuses more on recreating the historical feeling so the "what if" component is almost completely annhilated. I didn't like that but DaVinci proved to be more stubborn than I.
    The most notable feature of this mod is the combat model. In the first few years, before the CA "market philosophy" takes over (retainers bonuses, rank bonuses, equipment bonuses, etc, etc but the XP has been highly limited) a small mistake can compromise not just the campaign but the whole war. Battles are extremely realistic and very hard to win. It took us forever, literally, to find a good balance. There are some flaws (reported) but it's definitely the best combat model for S2 according to me.
    The main con is that until the grand design is completed (and I doubt DaVinci will complete it) its core ideas are undeveloped on the strategic side (again, can't disclose). The temporary solution is a very limited unit capping with an army of different unit classes (different ranks within the same unit type) that requires you to study a lot, build the exact building and only in the exact place, before you can become proficient and enjoy it.
    DaVinci surely has had his ideas in mind from the beginning and didn't sway from the original path but he ALSO retired (albeit temporarily, at least I hope!) from modding S2... eventually everyone gets tired sooner or later to run in circles (or on the treadmill lol). I am happy to hear Yarkis will come back, I don't know about Darth, I hope he doesn't stop either but the problem is always the same: as long as we keep buying their games, the DEV houses will not change their design concepts. They will keep deliverying useless stuff like these late DLCs without ever fixing problems. Just wait for the AI to besiege you and you will kill it very easily... how many more patches before they fix that? Infinite... as long as we keep buying.

    Damn

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