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Thread: NCOs and the Hatru

  1. #1
    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default NCOs and the Hatru

    From what I gather the Persian hatru system allotted three types of estates - bow (for the infantry), horse (cavalry) and chariot (for the nobles).

    The question is what estates did the NCO's promoted from the ranks - dathapatish, hazarapatish - receive? Were they still left with a bow estate, which could only supply one infantryman?

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    39 views and no answers?


    To Ishan, who will most likely try moving this to the VV:

    Posting this in the VV would be pointless, since all I'd get would be either no views, or Greek fanboys talking about how the Persians were a primitive tribal system, with no logistics or strategy or anything.

  3. #3

    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    Well, i imagine it would be something like what kings did with recently made knights. They would expand the lands they already held a bit, so they could support more troops.

    Please rep me for my posts, not for the fact that i have a Pony as an Avatar.


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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    Well, a hazarapatiš commanded 1000 men. Should that be a little increase in estates (the rank and file infantry received the land too, you know, the bow estate)?

    Would it not make sense if they received small chariot estates?

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    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    Im totally clueless to say the least. Im one of the viewers and my limited english took some time in understanding what NCO was

    My guess is, taking into account that Persians were not so fanatically tied to blood relations for entering the nobility (or otherwise there will not be so MANY non-iranians count among of the Persian nobility in later years) , that since these NCO had tax obligations (in the form of military service) equivalent to those of nobles, they would receive "small" (i did not studied the land-owning regime during the achaemenid so deeply) Chariot estates. This would probably extend to other people in high ranks of state service (although by the nature of the Persians its probable that "promoted" nobles would have to serve in both functions), a kind of "robe nobility" or promoted nobility among the modern european kingdoms.

    There is a problem however, in the study of the Achaemenids, that is the relative lack of sources, specially form the main centers of administration, and specially when compared with previous middle-eastern nations and empires that had left behind (literally, since they are in stone ) tons of registers and sources. Whe know that the achaemenids, being the logical evolution of previous, always smaller empires (the last one great importance was the Neo-Assyrians), must have an administration that at least match them, and probably it was much more sophisticated. Yet, we have vey few administrative sources when compared with Assyrians, Babylonians, Canaanite cities or even Mitanni, and many of them are in aramean and related to western provinces only in Anatolia, Canaan and Mesopotamia. I heard that the Iranians had made some progress in recovering some sources but many of their works are not in english so i could not read them yet, so my point of view can be highly outdated.
    Last edited by Anakarsis; November 25, 2011 at 08:57 AM.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    NCO means a non-comissioned officer, an officer promoted from the troops rather than receiving that position outright.

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    Anakarsis's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    Yes i know, but never saw wrote that way and in spanish (my mother language) they are said totally diferent so it took me a bit to understand what they were.

    So my guess stays the same.

  8. #8

    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    Well, a hazarapatiš commanded 1000 men. Should that be a little increase in estates (the rank and file infantry received the land too, you know, the bow estate)?

    Would it not make sense if they received small chariot estates?

    The Persians were infamous for their administrative skills. They most likely followed the base of the Assyrian/Babylonian distribution system and improved upon it.

  9. #9

    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru

    Quote Originally Posted by Blatta Optima Maxima View Post
    NCO means a non-comissioned officer, an officer promoted from the troops rather than receiving that position outright.
    NCO means non-commissioned officer, yes, but not an "officer". There is a very clear distinction between officers and non-commissioned officers, and there was back in those days as well. Officers were nobles. Non-commissioned officers were from the lower classes of society, most likely the middle class.

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    Blatta Optima Maxima's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: NCOs and the Hatru


    Officer = someone who commands men.
    Comissioned officer = someone specifically prepared to be an officer.
    NCO = an officer promoted from the ranks. In the Achaemenid armies ranks up to hazaraptish were obtainable by the commoners, rank and file infantry.

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